Irfan you say of the Government:

"Sadly, more focus has been placed on challenging intolerance and extremism from within Muslim groups than from within sections of the government and the media."

Surely this is because more intolerance and extremism exists within the Muslim community than in the wider non Muslim community.

For example an intolerance of intermarriage between Muslims and non Muslims, of divorce, and of muslims changing faith, or leaving the religion.

And with regard to extremism, it is only young Muslims who, so far, seem to be disposed towards planning urban terrorism.

Surely it makes sense for a Government to apply resources where they may produce the greatest benefit.

However the benefits of this will be very modest for as long as government supports and subsidises faith based schools, which simply encourage the sort of marginalisation and "cultural cocoons" that you wish to change.

When I hear you, and peak Muslim bodies, demanding secular education for Muslims, and an end to faith based school subsidies, then I will believe you are serious.

last word - good point about the faith based schools but please remember that muslims are bit players in that field in this country. We have a very long way to go before there is general community acceptance for the stopping of funding of faith based schools.

A starting point would be the establishment of non-faith based private schools, it seems to me that many of the faith based schools are thriving because they are generally the only alternative to the state school system.

People wanting to do a bit more for their kids see it as a means to give them an edge (and the classrooms and grounds are often much nicer even if the education is not).

As for most of the intollerance coming from muslims - have a read through some of the posts on these forums from non muslims. The level of intollerance and hostility shown by some is horrifying. They are determined never to give a mossie a chance, every good step by a mossie is regarded as part of a giant conspiracy for global domination etc. They are determined to leave no space for mossies to fit into the community and then of course when a small number behave badly they will be busy shouting "See I told you so".

Irf's points are well made.

R0bert

Another succinct and emminently pragmatic article from Irfan. His points are indeed well made, as are R0bert's.

Point about faith based schools made by Last Word applies to ALL faiths not just Muslims. Last Word's post merely indicates that Muslims are judged harshly no matter what they do or say.

Predict descent into Muslim bashing by the usual suspects. Therefore can only commend Irfan for his eloquent perseverence under conditions of unremitting bigotry.

Irfan’s reference to the government’s “relative ignorance” of Islam is just another reason why they should not have allowed the religion to become established here – i.e allowed immigrants they knew nothing about to enter Australia.

The common future built by Muslims over 150 years in European Australia, mentioned by Irfan, does not have much meaning, seeing that for most of that 150 years, there were very few Muslims in Australia in much happier and simpler times when it was easy to accept a few ‘different’ people who had actually shared the same experiences and conditions as the Europeans.

Thanks to ignorant governments, we have had, in a relatively short time, an influx of Muslims, generally clustered in ghettos to make their presence felt more strongly than if they did assimilate with the rest of us.

Governments are certainly ignorant in all matters of immigration. Both political parties are growth mad, and the fact that Europeans no longer want to come to Australia has ‘forced’ (according to their madness) them to turn to un-traditional sources to sate their hunger for more growth and money for the big end of town.

I shudder to think what Australian officials overseas and the immigration agents have told and are still telling these people to lure them here: multicultural country, tolerance, opportunities for all etc., and probably nothing about the realities of life in Australia and what is expected of the immigrants themselves.

Irfan’s last paragraph makes good sense; but as long as we have belligerent and dictatorial official structures, and total lack of commonsense from politicians who don’t give a toss about their wealth-producing new recruits, anymore than they do the host population’s opinions, it is not going to happen.

We were not ready for the demographic upheaval caused by Coalition and Labor politicians – without consultation. Too much damage has been done to make a quick fix possible.

Robert and Scout,

My comments on secular education also apply to non Muslim education, but since Irfan's article concerned marginalisation of Muslims,I did not see the need to generalise.

Scout, I was trying to be objective, not judgemental.

It seems clear to me that Muslims tend to exlude themselves from the wider community more so than other religious and secular groupings, with the exception of small religious sects.

The intolerances I mentioned form part of this self exclusion.

As I understand it, many muslims also believe that Sharia law should be superior to, or take the place of, current legal systems; this would seem to be further cause of a gulf betwen Muslim and non muslim society and a justification for the examples of intolerance which I detailed, and a factor in muslim self exclusion.

As regards my remarks on terrorism, this was a direct response to Irfan's comment on Government initiatives, which I quoted.

Clearly if government is going to spend resources on a problem, then it must put them where it is anticipated it will be most beneficial.

If it was Catholic youth plotting urban terrorism, or being subjected to hate indoctrination sessions by their priests, then my remarks would have referred to Government initiatives directed at Catholic Youth.

LEIGH: Irfan’s reference to the government’s “relative ignorance” of Islam is just another reason why they should not have allowed the religion to become established here ...

=> In what sense was Islam "allowed ... to become established here"? We are a secular society, and governments aren't in the business of stopping any religion from being established.

LEIGH: Thanks to ignorant governments, we have had, in a relatively short time, an influx of Muslims, generally clustered in ghettos to make their presence felt more strongly than if they did assimilate with the rest of us.

=> Which Muslims are you talking about? Aussie Muslims come from over 60 different countries and speak over 200 languages and dialects.

=> What example of assimilation did the English and Irish set when they arrived here? Did they follow indigenous cultures? If European Australians refused to assimilate with a culture established here for over 20,000 years, with what moral authority can they expect others to assimilate into their 200-year culture?

LAST WORD: "It seems clear to me that Muslims tend to exlude themselves from the wider community more so than other religious and secular groupings, with the exception of small religious sects."

=> What empirical evidence do you have for this? Can you show us concrete evidence based on studies to show that all 60 Muslim ethnic groups in Australia have excluded themselves from the rest of the community? I want to see evidence, not innuendo, guesswork or imbecilic articles from tabloid newspapers.

Sweet Jesus,

Costellos bloody twilight zone should never have been allowed to happen in the 1st place. Muslims have never coexisted with anyone anywhere in the world 4 any length of time , simpley not commpatible with anyone anywhere and especially not the skips.

Irfan relays assaults on muslim targets around the western world after London Bombings. That is not assaulting muslim targets. If the perpetrators started dragging the ummah out of the Mosques in all western countries and flogged them as the ummah would do to the infidel then perhaps that would be assault. The cartoon rage thats assault. I for one do not believe that Islam has yet witnessed extremism among the average infidel yet.

A couple of Afghans leading camel trains thru the desert does not constitute a muslim presence in this country. Dont ever forget you and yours are here at the host infidels invitation period. Its too late to shut the gate after the horse has bolted and you no it. Muslims the world over are a parasitic plague enveloping other cultures and devouring them and the same will undoubtably happen here.

Irfan open any newspaper in any country in the world and I guarantee that all the big stories will be about muslims doing what muslims do, spreading its violent tentacles around the world Only one religion preaches violence.

NO TABOULI

One thing all the leaders in the Middle East conflict have in common is the absolute belief that God is on his side. Obviously, more than one leader is delusional as God can't be on all sides at once.I think God has left the building.

Irfan, good article mate. May thousands more Muslims migrate to this country over the coming decades. It’s in dire need of people of substance.

Irfy

Since the London bombings things appear a bit grey for security services in the Western world.

Times have been relatively tough for ASIO since the November 2005 arrests of alleged homegrown terrorists in Sydney and Melbourne.
- "Jihad" Jack (though well and truly al Qaeda connected) got off with 5 years
- Lodhi's case appears homegrown, the physical evidence is quite compelling and he's been found guilty but he is unlikely to get a maximum sentence.

Attempts to head off subsequent 7/7 (London bombing) style scenarios have led to one dead Brazilian and too many seemingly ill considered arrests of internet "chat room terrorists" in the UK, Canada and the US recently. In these cases their main crime appeared to be chatting on the internet about the idea of bombing something perhaps utilising publicly available formulas.

Written internet chatting (a relatively new medium) may look like compelling evidence but what people type away may not necessarily be considered thought indicating actual intention.

If they are Muslims this has appeared to be sufficient to launch anti terror intelligence then arrest operations against them.

Re Australia’s November 2005 arrests – yes they were Muslim and there was the UK precedent still resounding 4 months previously…but we'll see.

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com

1

Irfan,

Even when I say something nice about you in my penultimate paragraph, you throw a fit of the ‘Muslims’.

In response to what I think are questions – even though nothing an infidel like me could say would ever satisfy you – a) Islam was allowed to become established here by Australian governments who could, if they wished, not allow it. And, despite what you say, some governments ARE “in the business of stopping any religion from being established” viz., countries where governments are dominated by your religion!

b) I am talking about all Muslims. I am aware of the blah about ‘x’ number of countries, ‘x’ numbers of languages and dialects etc., and I still mean all Muslims.

c) If you are referring to English and Irish assimilating with the aboriginal culture, you have really lost the plot: are you suggesting that we should have gone backwards by 30,000 years, or are you suggesting that people like you would be regressing if you assimilated with us? And, the host culture of any country has the moral authority to insist that newcomers assimilate.

Unfortunately, there is no political party with the morality or guts to assert the right in Australia because they are too lily livered to withstand the likes of you and those of your ilk and arrogance who would call them ‘xenophobic’ as you called me in following the Lowenstein gibberish

Irfan,
Your long bow is out and stretched beyond the limit.
"A year after the London bombings, our understanding of home-grown terrorist threats seems no more advanced."

London is not our home. England is not our home. Australia is our home and you drew the long bow and mentioned London because you can't think of any terrorism here at home in Australia. Ho hum, have a pie and pies and put the roast beef away back in England where the terrorists are.

Bali in Indonesia is closer but you wanted the English speaking-type terrorists. Why would we want to understand terrorists who speak English?

Why has Communist China sought alliances with the most vile and virulent terrorists on the face of the earth? Because they share two critical characteristics: hatred of America, and fear of democracy. The CCP is well aware what the Chinese people really think of it. It knows that the democratic world shines as an example of what China could be without tyranny. This is an example with which the CCP cannot compare, thus the CCP must eliminate it.

This is the real reason why Governemnts around the world make only small in roads to understanding terrorists. Because the western Governtments have not discovered the terrorist root yet.

The battle between Hezbollah and Israel, the crisis over Stalinist North Korea's nuclear and missile ambitions, similar concern over the same ambitions in Iran, and the ongoing battles of Afghanistan and Iraq.
The Chinese communist regime has been the benefactor of every enemy of freedom in the aforementioned crises.

Why has Communist China sought alliances with the most vile and virulent terrorists on the face of the earth? Because they share two critical characteristics: hatred of America, and fear of democracy.Its them or us..

Yep perceptions of Islam in Australia is well covered in OLO (again and again.. )

Back to terrorism in Australia.

Looks like "Jihad" Jack Thomas was sentenced to serve only 40 per cent of a possible five-year maximum term - this may now be increased.

There may also be a limitation implemented on how short Lodhi's sentence may be.

See ABC Online article http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200607/s1694038.htm on the esoteric topic of the actual implementation of counterterror legislation once discussion of it is no longer trendy.

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com

Irfan, I said: "It seems clear to me that Muslims tend to exlude themselves from the wider community more so than other religious and secular groupings, with the exception of small religious sects."

You replied with the question: "What empirical evidence do you have for this?"

I had previously said of Muslims, "For example an intolerance of intermarriage between Muslims and non Muslims, of divorce, and of Muslims changing faith, or leaving the religion."

Irfan, let me ask you whether you agree that such attitudes and beliefs are strongly held by the majority of Muslims?

If you agree, then you must also agree that these attitudes will tend to isolate and exclude Muslims from the wider community, the majority of which is secular with a general tolerance of these things.

You also requested evidence of this self exclusion by Muslims. The evidence I offer you of this are the Muslim communities of Lakemba in NSW and Bradford in England. These are Muslim communities which have clearly self excluded themselves from the broader society.

I would also like your response to my comments on faith based education and its consequences for Muslim society.

Irfan, I appreciate your involvement in this forum since for me, and I suspect most people, this is our only opportunity to discuss matters of importance with an Australian Muslim, (though I do not have any studies to support this).

• Irfan Yusuf ..."A year ago, more than 50 people were killed in a terrorist attack on London's public transport system. The attack represented a turning point in the international struggle against terrorism. All evidence points to the attack being the work of disillusioned and frustrated children of nominally Muslim migrants"... Wait-a-minute what kind-of-proof was ever presented contrary indication pointing at the British mass-murderer, Zionist terrorist Teflon Tony. Eager as-ever to-indulge with the elders-of-zion scripted plot to-achieve ''terrorism clampdown''. Encompassing draconian empowerment to control "extremist websites''!

Simultaneously as Washington Post's subject headline (e-mail issue of Aug 7th, 2005), lamented: ''Terrorists Turn to the Web as Base of Operations''. Exposing thus amalgamated Teflon/Bush stratagem (over-dead-bodies), essentially to-attain the remaining objectives of Hate-Crimes Legislation, Undesirables Deportation and Abolition of the Internet. In a nut-shell to-deliver the humankind over to the total-control by the elders-of-zion under NWO. No-wonder for swift-action implementation in-reflection on-a-damage done-otherwise to Teflon Tony reputation, courtesy-of-internet-site revelation on a Downing-Street-Memo.

At the time (you-may-recall), UK public sought clarification of a definition as to the active-engagement (implications) on-the-internet. Where engagement with-a-website could have been as minimal as-looking at the web-pages, through to the logging-in (as-a-registered-user), and actually submitting content to the website.

"One assumes that just looking at a website is unlikely to get you deported, but detailed rules on this point are essential. In other words, you have absolutely nothing to fear -- but your own government. Merely looking at something will now be a crime! And since when do secret terrorist cells submit-content-to-websites"? Wondered puzzled-pommy-dissidents as their participatory democracy via internet could have been a reason for the trigger-happy Home Secretary to-consider deportation of any-foreign-national.

In the circumstances I would-expect-from the genuinely-dedicated-participats to-elaborate on-a-far reaching ramifications for-our-democracy as-a-result of the willy-nilly carried-out acts-of-betrayal. Or was it executed within the spirit-of-enlightenment? Especially with a hijacked world at the crossroads! Courtesy-of elders-of-zion unleashed clandestine terror campaign against the utterly duped plebs as-to-drive them deeper into-unthinkable-conformity. Yet watching you here, and reading some of your infantile pretexts, one-gets an-impression that you seems to-adhere to the cowardice practice of toughing-it-out, whatever-it-takes.

Leigh and others, why not just simply say you are anti Muslim, hate Muslims etcetera etcetera ? That way we won't have to waste time and effort wading through your posts trying to textually analyse how careful you are not to be blantant about the obvious.
C'mon practice some free speech and say what you really think and stop being so political correct.

"When ordinary citizens know the facts about their Muslim neighbours, when Islam is no longer seen as alien, the hysteria will hopefully end. But when Muslims living in the West allow themselves to become marginalised in cultural cocoons, and when they become second-class citizens, groups like al-Qaida will find recruitment much easier."

If we replace 'Muslim' with "Christian" you will see why there are so many christian led terror attacks in Muslim nations and sultanates...

No wonder George cardinal Pell is, in faith dialogue http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,19912281-661,00.html
criticised for pointing out intrinsic violence in the Koran - and then is referred to as a clown - and I thought it was just his outfit?

• Rainier ..."Leigh and others, why not just simply say you are anti-Muslim, hate-Muslims etcetera etcetera? That way we won't have to waste time and effort wading through your posts trying to textually analyse how careful you are not to be blantant about the obvious. C'mon practice some free speech and say what you really think and stop being so political correct"!

OK let me to put it in the simplest terms ... once perfidious elders-of-zion attained their earlier ingenuity knack, necessarily to incite anti-Semitism and to instigate furthermore pogrom consequences via their radically spun nationalistic fervour in Europe, culminating with the fascist nazism in 1930s, just to uproot assimilationist Jew-lesser brethren to Palestine ...

No surprising the contemporary anti-Muslim agitation (past 9/11 stunt) was embraced without any doubt of course by chauvinistic Zionist zealots. Adamant to hate-Muslims for the perceived terrorism consequences as a result of deliberate provocations within the elders-of-zion mad drive over dead bodies as the only tradition they ever had, towards the greater eretz Israel. Nevermind so colossal human lives loss in lieu of an absolute power supremacy as an ultimate goal within the creed of greed sought Zionist hegemony on the planet earth.

Yet we need not to accept any diabolically plagued hegemony, if we recognise that there is a real choice once in a life time to make a change for the children of better tomorrow via earnest peoples opinion. Now striving all over the world, definitely as never before. Make no mistake, it's an epic struggle. Where alternative (if we fail to speak about it right now), is not just a conquest of far away countries, it's the conquest of us. Of our minds, our humanity and our self respect. If we to remain silent, the victory over us is assured [John Pilger].

For zion-nazi collaboration exposé proceed to ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4632#48915

How funny
Irfan look at the treatment of non-muslims in islamic countries and then write an article. we'll believe u