Two gay males are incapable of giving natural birth to a child that can be nursed and nurtured in that union.

However it may be possible for two lesbians who seek sex outside their relationship [violate their relationship] to give birth to a child and nurture it within a lesbian relationship. However the child will not fully understand the normal hetrosexual relationship that exists within society that it takes a male and female sexual relationship to produce a child and one in a lesbian relationship merely uses men for convenience. Their sexual orentation is violated for self fulfilment. The child will not fully grasp that temporary convenience is not the criterion for good hetrosexual relationships.

No child will fully thrive and mature with balanced views in a relationship other than a good hetrosexual family. All other relationships are second rate and ultimately destructive to good society [this includes single and blended families].

The fact is the violation of social norms of disoriented sexual practise that has been outlawed has primarly been between two men. The practise of the uncleanness of anal sex has been the threatning health scourge upon society that was condemned from the beginning of history.

Interesting point, Gekko. In fact, I’ve often wondered what organised religion offers gay people which makes up for all the intolerance and discrimination. The only explanation I can think of is that like straight people, gays are not immune to the religion virus. The need to believe in a god doesn’t discriminate – it’s just the believers who do.

As you point out, organisations and individuals make choices, and set up their rules accordingly – religious organisations are no exception. They are at liberty to make rules about taking your shoes off before you enter, wearing or nor wearing hats, compulsory attendance or compulsory financial support. Generally those rules apply equally to all members.

Further, there generally aren’t blanket exclusions of any particular groups. We would properly condemn a religion which refused entry to left-handed people, or red-headed people. There would be pickets outside a church which excluded Chinese or black people.

Yet for some reason religious organisations single out sexuality as the only arbitrary ground for exclusion. They’re not even singling out behaviours – in the case of Prendergast’s example, it’s the fact of them being together and being female that is found to be objectionable. Sydney’s Catholic cardinal excludes people who publicly declare their homosexuality, regardless of their sexual behaviour.

Let’s put aside for a moment the claims that certain religions make about loving fellow men and not despising others in their righteousness. Let’s refrain from inviting the believers here to remove the timber from their own eyes.

Yes, religious organisations can make choices. However they operate in the context of a greater society, which generally condemns arbitrary exclusions and discriminations. Despite this, religions set themselves above the society they inhabit, and reserve for themselves the right to make cruel and arbitrary judgements about just one small group of people.

Where do you propose that gay believers should go, Gekko? Do you want to send them off to non-straight churches, to make them sit on non-straight benches and attend non-straight schools? Would you like to force all gay people to stand up for straight people on buses, too?

Philo, bit puzzled about your last post. You said,

"No child will fully thrive and mature with balanced views in a relationship other than a good hetrosexual family."

This is obviously something you feel strongly about, but I can’t for the life of me find any credible evidence to back this assertion up. My experience, and the available data, suggest that the gender or sexual preference of parents seem to make little, if any, difference to the social and psychological adjustment of their children. This question seems to go to the heart of the Catholic Church’s official position about gay parenting doing “violence” to children, but like many similar arguments, the rest of your post seems to appeal to anxieties about rectal integrity rather than any sound objective examination of psychological or sociological data about child development.

Francis, please go back and read my post again. Never did I state I hated Catholics, just the hierarchy of the church itself, although with due respect, I didn't make that point terribly clear in hindsight. I grew up with Catholics, heck I attended a Catholic school and met some wonderful people as well as some not so nice ones, but one thing I learned throughout those and subsequent years is how the Catholic hierarchy twisted and bent God's rule to suit themselves. Did you know they actually took one of the ten commandments, split it in two and discarded one just so they could deny that the true sabbath was actually Saturday, the true 7th day of the week. Why would they do that you ask? Simply because Saturday was a trading day in those times and the Catholic church didn't want trading hours disrupted by people wandering off to church. The church lost too much money that way. So I'm sorry if I ruffled your feathers Francis. I try to get through life without making people angry. I don't always succeed, but I don't think it's fair that you should judge me and say I need a psychiatrist. I could equally judge you by saying your views are so clouded by religeous dogma that you believe that thousands of innocent people haven't been killed during the crusades and invasions of various countries by Conquistadors who did so in the name of Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church drummed up hatred then and continues to do so now. Take a good look at the history books and then tell me who had a distorted view of history.

Alchemist kindly observe:

>>Coach,-you-sin-every-time-you-post,-is-not-judgement-a-sin,-“let-he-who-casts-the-first-stone".-However,-your-exempt-aren't-you,-god-loves-you.<<

Of course I sin every time I breath We are all sinners- O wise one -. If God had to wait for us to become perfect He would have never send Jesus to save us.

Your quote from John 8:7 "If-any-one-of-you-is-without-sin,-let-him-be-the-first-to-throw-a-stone-at-her."
Jesus when presented with an adulteress caught in the act and asked to judge her - He bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger…
He was writing peoples sins – being God incarnate He knew all their sins.
When they were all gone, Jesus asked her:
"Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared.
And then the punch line:
"Go now and leave your life of sin."
Jesus did not condemn her but condemn the sin. Adultery, bestiality, homosexuality, etc… is an abomination to God.
_________________

The problem with the world is they can’t handle the truth; attacking the institutions (catholic or otherwise) and treating the Word of God with contempt (i.e. mythical-or-at-best-a-misinterpretation-of-their-preferred-version-of-the-truth) is not going to change God’s mind about SIN.

Paul’s last words before his execution by the Romans:

2 Timothy 4:

3For-the-time-will-come-when-men-will-not-put-up-with-sound-doctrine.-Instead,-to-suit-their-own-desires,-they-will-gather-around-them-a-great-number-of-teachers-to-say-what-their-itching-ears-want-to-hear.

4They-will-turn-their-ears-away-from-the-truth-and-turn-aside-to-myths.

LOL!

Coach said: "...is not going to change God’s mind about SIN"

This is interesting Coach. Do you profess to know your god's mind? Surely this is the height of arrogance that a mere mortal can know the infinite and express that view.

In doing so, do you claim to be the vessel for that infinite being? Indeed are you not assuming the very crown of your god for yourself.

You claim you "Know God", to know the infinite would surely drive you mad. You claim you know the thoughts of Satan. How can you speak for Satan?

You claim that your knowledge of god, through knowing him gives you the right to cast damnation upon some souls "Gay and lesbians will have to face the music one day at God’s judgement throne" yet I put to you that your arrogance makes YOU the sinner that will come to really know Satan: "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven" --Luke 6:37 (KJV)

No human has the right to speak for or "Know" god.