Scout, we seem to be going round in circles on this issue. You appear to be reading some kind of support for sexual abuse into my posts (not intended) and I struggle to see how you see a significant difference in the choices made by Camilla and the guys. I'll hold off attempting another direct response to your points until I feel like I've got a better understanding of our differing viewpoints. I'm hoping this is a failure to communicate clearly on one or both our parts and that I'm not really a sexist biggot.

hadz, I like your post and would like to take up on the comment implied in the question "If someone initiates a sexual act and STOPS when they are told to stop, then how can they be found fault with?".

In most circumstances initiating a sexual act without express consent prior to the act would be a very serious issue. For most of us the only person we do so with is a regular and established sexual partner. Anything else may well land us in court.

The need for upfront consent is not always a black and white issue, context does come into it. A reasonable belief that consent would be given if asked is a relevant factor in the difference between a bad judgement call and a sexual assault.

In what I have seen of the footage of the incident (I have not seen the second Turkey Slap) Camilla appears to have correctly assumed that consent would be given for her actions in initiating sexual contact with the males. It appears that the guys misjudged Camilla's willingness to consent to the turkey slap although the context in which she initially raised the issue could in my view easily be interpreted to mean that she was OK with the idea. The kind of ambiguous wording which happens in real life play.

Was that a context where it was OK to assume consent, for Camilla apparently so but not for the guys.

R0bert

Why BB evicted John & Ashley and not Camilla.

Since last year when a male contestant rubbed his penis on the back of a girl he was supposed to be massaging, BB has had to establish some limits. While, I believe that this contestant should’ve been evicted also; to all the male whingers who are claiming ‘unfair’ – well BB, by failing to evict this young man, was guilty of a double standard on that occasion.

Camilla initiated a sexual grope under the blankets with the young men. This is not in contravention of BB’s rules on sexual conduct.

“Turkey slapping” does contravene BB’s rules (irrespective of when Camilla told the boys to stop their behaviour) therefore the boys were evicted.

By their cries of “she instigated it” male posters seem to think Camilla is responsible for the ‘turkey slapping’ and should’ve been evicted also. Consider the following:

1. Sexual play IS permitted on BB.
2. Restraining and ‘turkey slapping’ someone, without prior consent, cannot be seen as friendly, respectful play and for many it is humiliating and this is why it is a breach of BB’s rules.
3. By initiating sexual play, Camilla is not responsible for how the two young men chose to behave, she is responsible for her own behaviour.

Therefore, it is not a double standard, that the woman was treated more leniently than the men. Her sexual behaviour was permissible within the rules set out by BB; the boy’s behaviour wasn’t.

I am upset because the male posters here apparently believe that women are responsible for men’s sexual behaviour. They are not. Seems some posters can’t see the difference between what is permissible and what isn’t on BB. One can only speculate on what this indicates in their own behaviour towards women.

Finally, the young men are adults and can choose how they respond to sexual play. They can either treat their partner in a respectful way, ensuring they have consent for what they do. Only they are responsible for what they do. Camilla did not ‘make’ them hold her down and ‘turkey slap’ her

Scout, "I am upset because the male posters here apparently believe that women are responsible for men’s sexual behaviour." - I think that you are being very unfair to the male posters here by your insistance on interpreting our comments in that manner. I certainly don't believe that and am not convinced that anybody else does.

If Turkey slapping was specifically banned (or a broader ban which covered anything like turkey slapping) then I have no issue with the consequences. You post is the first clear claim that I have noticed that TS is specifically banned. Assorted commentary I have seen suggests that turkey slapping (and a female equivalent using breasts) is common in the house. Camilla's comment leading up to the initial incident certainly supported that impression.

If the guys have broken a known rule of the house then there is no issue.

As for "2. Restraining and ‘turkey slapping’ someone, without prior consent, cannot be seen as friendly, respectful play and for many it is humiliating and this is why it is a breach of BB’s rules"

It would not be OK in my world but then plenty of people are OK with sexual activities which I have no interest in or which I would find distressing if someone initiated them with me. My own preferences and taste should never be the judgement point for the appropriateness of somebody else's actions.

R0bert

R0bert I am beginning to think you are not even reading my posts, or worse, deliberately misunderstanding me.

Please refer to my earlier post where I referenced the comments from a couple of male posters who made their feelings very clear when they stated that Camilla should’ve been evicted also because “she instigated” the sexual behaviour.

I will reiterate, BB have not evicted other contestants for sexual behaviour. One has to assume it is dependent upon degree. In other words under cover fumbling is apparently permitted but restraint with ‘turkey slap’ apparently isn’t. I don’t claim to know exactly what the rules are but have enough intelligence and EMPATHY to know that restraint and ‘turkey slapping’ would have to cross the line for most people.

So far as I know Camilla has not restrained or ‘turkey slapped’ anyone.

Also previously, I stated that for some people Ashley and John’s behaviour is acceptable. However, R0bert, you admit yourself it is not something that you get into and you would want to be sure first, wouldn’t you? Before going ahead with sexual play that could make someone feel humiliated.

I KNOW not ALL male posters think that anything goes if a woman instigates sexual contact; I just haven’t heard from any of them on this thread.

R0bert, you are the only person to even discuss this with me and even you think that Camilla is responsible.

Now to those males who are unable to see any difference between a ‘mutual grope under the sheets’ and ‘turkey slapping’ someone’s face while being restrained:

If you are so lacking in empathy then a rough guideline in how to behave is simply to picture yourself in the same position. Would you like to be held down and have someone slap their penis across your face?

If this scenario makes you at all uncomfortable, then there is a chance it would make a woman uncomfortable. Ashley and John should have thought of this first and asked for Camilla’s consent.

So, why is she considered responsible for Ashley’s and John’s behaviour by some of the OLO posters?

I really wish I had written this -

"Never argue with women"
http://nycbuck.blogspot.com/2006/07/never-argue-with-women.html
"I don't understand why some guys even bother to engage in any sort of debate with women. It's an exercise in futility, because a woman cannot 'lose' an argument. There is no gracefully bowing out when you are clearly wrong or have been outwitted if you are a woman, they simply change the subject or shame the people they are arguing with."

"...simply change the subject or shame the people they are arguing with" - and ain't that the truth?

Save your breath RObert, you're talking to a Neanderthal.

Maximus, I am struggling in this particular discussion and somewhat hurt that Scout is so willing to turn on me with insulting remarks. On the other hand I am very certain that I'm not dealing with a Neanderthal, I've been through too much with Scout in the past and have a fairly high opinion of her intellect and general fairness on issues. She has been for a long time one of my favourite posters on these threads. We don't always agree (especially about the genderisation of DV) but this is the first time that I can recall where we seem to be stuck in an impass where we have failed to gain what seems to me to be a fair understanding of the others position.

I'm fairly confident that I don't believe the things that Scout seems to be finding in my posts nor do I see that others are taking the stance that Scout claims. Hopefully in time I will understand what is happening here.

Of posters on OLO there are few who I would rather put the extra effort in for than Scout, she has earned that respect from me over a sustained period of time. I try to stick with my friends through the rough spots as well as the smooth.

As for the link you posted I know some woman like that but I know plenty more who are grown up adults and who despise that kind of behaviour. I'm guessing that it is the kind of stereotype that is as anoying to women who are not like that as the portrayal of men as violent sex abusers is to those of us who are not like that.

R0bert