Dear Kalin.
thanx for asking a question rather than jumping on me wholesale like some un-named contributors do :)

Actually, I don't feel "Israel" should relocate the Palestinians from the Camps, I feel the world community should. Mainly the Arab world.
Bringing them to a democratic country like Australia will just add to our own problems as they seek to maintain the momentum of their struggle at our social expense.

I don't find it morally or ethically repugnant to re-settle people in other countries of compatable culture. Good grief.. we have millions of people currently in many diverse camps who would 'die for' an opportunity to start building new lives in some peaceful land. You only have to meet some from Southern Sudan who have come here (culturally compatable.. nominal Christian background) to see how its not the end of the world to leave you old country for a new one.

Why Palestinians have such an attachment to 'their' land is something you might like to research ?

I suggest Southern Syria, Parts of Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran (for the Hezbollah mob, being Shia) Turkey and parts of North Africa, say Libya (they have some money to help re-settle)

We (and most western countries) could take small groups BUT...on conditions of loyalty and a total turning away from any activity of protest or fund raising for terrorism related to the situation in Israel. (failure to comply would = deportation)

Keep up the good work.

Sganot:
1)"SkidMarx wrote": Oh well, that settles it, doesn't it? Are you suggesting a bricks-&-mortar version of 'There were no such things as Palestinians in 48'? Therefore, no Pal homes/lands/businesses etc. Therefore no Israeli Custodian of Absentee Property to steal said imaginary homes etc, estimated by the JNF at around 88% of pre-67 Israel? After which said imaginary homes etc (the ones not blown up by Israeli forces, that is) did NOT come under the control of the ILA/JNF? Nah - all belonged to the Ottomans as esteemed scholar, SkidMarx has revealed.
2)The hasbara is wearing thin. So now Pals in Occupied Territories are not only to sit back as Israeli colonists/army confiscate Pal land, but are also expected to fork over the crumbs left by Is colonists/army to other Israelis. You're peeing on our legs again.
3)Never underestimate The Lobby: Weizmann persuaded Truman to include Beersheba in the proposed Jewish state 19/11/47.
4)"Israel wasn't created by ethnic cleansing because it'd have a substantial Jewish majority without Pal refugee flight": As in 'Money's not everything, but it sure helps'! Why then did Israel baulk at their return in 48-9 and subsequently? "100% of Jews...under Arab rule forced out". Yeah, all 10,000 of them, as compared with 750,000 Palestinians, 85% of the population of Palestine.
5)The Zionist movement's only interest in European (or any other Jews) has always been as raw material for a Jewish state in Palestine. As your guru, Ben-Gurion himself admitted: "If I knew that it was possible to save all the children in Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second - because we face not only the reckoning of these children, but the historical reckoning of the Jewish people." Like any ideology, Zionism places ideological abstractions (such as 'the Jewish people') before real people. Even today, despite their exposure to Zionist indoctrination, the majority of Jews sensibly choose to remain OUTSIDE the Jewish ghetto of Israel.

David,

Yes, I noticed you do get jumped on quite a bit. I think that's because you sometimes rely on religious arguments and you sometimes put forward cut and dried answers to complex problems. Religious arguments sound preachy and are usually offensive to those who are not religiously inclined and the later just seem condescending.

To your credit, however, you are the only person in the entire thread who has put forward any remotely viable proposal to permanently resolve the problem. Even in the form outlined in your last post, it is no doubt repugnant to many and has significant practical issues, but I haven't noticed any remotely viable alternatives from anyone else (please jump in anyone with a viable alternative). I'm interested in realistic solutions not the rhetoric of hatred which so permeates this issue.

My own take is that the Palestinians, as well as being victims of Zionist ambitions, have become pawns of their Arab/Islamic neighbours. In 1948 the neighbouring Islamic countries declared war on the new Jewish state and this attack was largely justified as being necessary to protect the Palestinians. The massive displacement of Palestinians, which then occurred, was largely a result of this failed Arab aggression.

Unfortunately, while the neighbouring Islamic nations were prepared to go to war for their Palestinian cousins, that's where their compassion apparently ends. They refused, and continue to refuse, significant numbers of Palestinians as refugees and the ghetto enclaves of the West Bank and Gaza, are partly a result of this.

(continued)

Clearly, the Palestinians have been put between a rock and a hard place - Israel is the rock, but the so-called 'allies' of the Palestinians are the 'hard place.' This indicates to me that the Islamic nations are not hostile to Israel simply out of their sympathy to the Palestinians, but for other reasons.

This remains the chief practical problem with any resettlement solution. Though the rest of the Islamic world is big enough to accommodate the Palestinians, they seem completely unwilling to do so. For religious and political reasons, some Islamic nations (and/or pan national Islamic groups) see the constant aggravation of Israel and the West as desirable (quite apart from the plight of the Palestinians). That being the case, the Palestinians represent a useful tool for some Islamic nations to inflict pain on the Israeli's and distress to the West, while avoiding culpability. That so much of the aid from the Islamic world appears to primarily consist of arms, or support for terrorist organisations, speaks volumes. They need only supply arms and the Palestinians, blind to their manipulation, represent an endless supply of willing cannon fodder.

Any thoughts on how such issues can be overcome? What would it take to persuade the Arab/Islamic world to take on the task of re-settling the Palestinians and what would it take to persuade the Palestinians to go willingly - financial incentives? I can't imagine that most of them wouldn't jump at the chance of a better life elsewhere.

Kalin, you raise excellent questions; the answers deserve more space than I have. We can discuss them at length offline ( sganot@gmail.com ).

Short answer to question 1: Yes, while defending ourselves, we must be careful to avoid as much as possible killing innocent civilians.

Re what it’s like here now, obviously it's been hardest for those killed and injured, their families, and those who have lost homes and businesses in the attacks. The horrors of war are plain and obvious, and affect civilians on both sides of the border. For about a million people in Israel's north, it's very difficult, particularly for the elderly, disabled, and young children who cannot get to bomb shelters quickly and have the greatest difficulty staying in them for long periods. Many have fled or sent their children south.

Palestinians in Israel suffer like the rest of us. One of the soldiers killed in the original Hizbullah attack was Wassim Nazal, from the Druze community. Many towns that have been hit are predominantly or completely Arab -- Acre, Talal, Julis, Abu Snan, Kafr Yassif, Sakhnin, Peki'in, etc.

The violence has many side effects we don't necessarily think about – economic ruin to the region, fruit rotting on trees because no one can pick it, animals uncared for because their owners fled, etc. But the country is unified about the need to end the terrorist attacks from Lebanon and Gaza, despite the temporary hardship this causes. Again, I'd be happy to discuss this at greater length offline.

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2bob, thanks for your support, but you are wrong about Israeli doves feeling stupid/misled for having supported withdrawal from Gaza & Lebanon. Most of us continue to believe that those policies were correct. See for example http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/737833.html

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Strewth,

-I disagreed with SkidMarx's figure. Aren't you paying attention?

"…that settles it" , "no such things as Palestinians", and everything else in your first paragraph is surreal and bears no relation to my views, the historical record, or the current situation. Be more rational and we can talk about it.

(Continued…)

Strewth (continued...)

-About the draconian "apartheid" nature of Palestinian property law: In Australia, you can sell your house to a Jew, an Arab -- pretty much whomever you please. I can do the same in Israel. But in Palestinian-ruled territory, selling to a Jew (whether Israeli or not) is punishable by death. Don't bother trying to understand this or explain it away; anti-Semitism defies rational explanation.

-The proposed change to the UNSCOP plan would have excluded the Negev from Israel, not included Beersheba in it. Weizmann met Truman on 19/11/47 and persuaded him to support leaving UNSCOP's original recommendation unchanged. Res. 181, passed 10 days later, makes clear that the Jewish state's "Beersheba area" was "including the Negeb" but "excluding the town of Beersheba…."

-We agree that most Arabs fled or were forced out of areas that fell under Jewish rule, and all Jews fled or were forced out of areas that fell under Arab rule. We disagree about the numbers. Perhaps we'd also agree that hundreds of thousands of Jews fled or were forced out of Arab and Muslim countries, and most of them found refuge in Israel.

-Do you have a source for Ben-Gurion's quote, other than the Nazi websites where I see it featured? Do you know when and in what context it was said, and why?

Strewth, correcting your numerous and repeated errors and arguing about what happened 50-100 years ago is getting boring. I get it: You're not a big fan of Ben-Gurion or certain (real or imagined) aspects of Israeli law or the very fact of Israeli sovereignty. Too bad. If I tried, surely I could be offended by something Simón Bolívar or Lachlan Macquarie said in 1815; no one ever consulted with me about how people came to own land in South America or Australia; and gosh, who said Colombia and Australia should be independent states in the first place?

Bottom line: Israel is not negotiable, and we Israelis owe you no explanation for our national existence, just as you owe us nothing for yours in whatever country you call home.