Shorbe, Nokia's annual turnover is ~$40b. Israel has no oil, and its GDP is $129b. Comoros, Djibouti, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Mauritania, and Palestine (all members of the Arab League) produce virtually no oil, and have a combined GDP of ~$187b.

----
Kalin, Kang, Logic, Taiwan Teacher, et al.,

I concur with Logic re Kalin's messages. They include much truth and wisdom, and though I might disagree with a few details, that’s hardly important. I recommend that people interested in reducing the hatred and violence get involved in supporting one of the numerous groups that promote peaceful coexistence, such as Children of Abraham (http://www.sonsofabraham.net/ ), the Encounter organization (http://www.salam-shalom.net/ ) whose online forum (still temporarily down) I mentioned earlier, and the Abraham Fund (http://www.abrahamfund.org ).

I also agree with much of what has already been said by others re Khazars. The Khazar legend is based on a historical Jewish kingdom, but it isn't clear that they contributed much to the Ashkenazi genetic pool. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars : "although Khazars might have been absorbed into the Jewish population it is unlikely that they formed a large percentage of the ancestors of modern Ashkenazim." The article goes on to say that Koestler's theory is not supported by mainstream researchers, and is widely discredited.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi#Origins_of_Ashkenazim , "there is a consensus of cultural, linguistic, and genetic evidence that the Ashkenazi Jewish population originated in the Middle East."

Overwhelming evidence shows that Ashkenazi and Sefardi Jews tend to be most similar to each other (more closely related than either is to surrounding populations of non-Jews), and that both groups are closely related to Syrians, Palestinians, Lebanese, Kurds, and Druze. Interestingly, one study indicates that Sefardi Jews are more closely related to Europeans than Ashkenazi Jews, and concludes that "Ashkenazim are not closely related to their Central and Eastern European neighbors or to any group outside the Middle East or Near East."

Those who wish to pursue this topic may be interested in the following:
http://www.cryptojews.com/Comparing_DNA.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8935325&dopt=Abstract
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron
http://www.rasch.org/rmt/rmt161g.htm
http://www.med.nyu.edu/genetics/research/jewish_origins.html
http://www.researchchannel.org/prog/displayevent.asp?rid=540
http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Abstracts/Owens_King_99.html
http://jewniverse.ru/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t882.html
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html
http://www.barzan.com/kevin_brook.htm

(Continued below…)

(Continued from above)

The genetic and historic research is of course intriguing, but the real question is why any of this should matter to the Israeli- Palestinian and wider Arab-Israeli conflicts. It shouldn’t matter whether genetic evidence points to Jewish origins in Antarctica or Palestinian origins in Australia. We’re both here now, and there really are only two choices: long-term, peaceful coexistence or one side pushing out the other.

Kang: “…since being able to prove that you are ‘Jewish’ “

Jewish status is not determined by genetics. The results of these genetic studies of Jewish origins are interesting, but they have no direct bearing on how either Jewish religious law (halacha) or the secular law of the State of Israel determine who is a Jew.

Kang: “gives you the right to migrate to someone else's land…”

No, Kang, it gives you the right to migrate to your own land, that is, to the Jewish homeland. To call Israel “someone else’s land” seems unwarranted on historic, legal, and other grounds.

And this is the same right that Armenia, Bulgaria, China, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Finland, Germany, Greece, Hungary, India, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Kiribati, Liberia, Poland, Romania, Russia, Rwanda, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Turkey, Ukraine, etc., give to members of some “preferred” ethnic group. It is very typical to give priority to potential immigrants who share a national, ethnic or historic identity or bond with the country or with the majority of its people.

Kang: “and exclusive rights to own it…”

Land ownership in Israel is not exclusive to Jews.

The events in Lebanon demonstrate clearly the necessity of not releasing prisoners in exchange for captured soldiers. The obvious 'arab'(simplification I know) reaction to which would be the continued attacks on Israeli positions & patrols in order to kidnap, or take prisoner of war, more israeli civilians & soldiers.

Obviously what Israel must do is capture 10,000s of prisoners from both Lebanon and Gaza to exchange for their three.

Interesting to note, Israel has stated that if the latest two hostages are not returned (not prisoner's of war, they have not advised Israel of their whereabouts or provided them with access to the Red Cross/Crescent/Mogen David), then Israel will turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years.

People fail to understand Israel's position, they are entitled to invade Lebanon & Gaza under International Law, having established cause for doing so. They are not conducting punitive raids as an occupying power, but are involved in an invasion. The rules/laws pertaining to armed conflict apply very differently to these two categories. Occupying powers cannot justify using unrestricted artillery & arial bombardment on built up areas, whereas a lawful invader can. Proportionality of response is necessary in a occupation, whereas it is not in an invasion. Occupation is basically a police action, whereas an invasion is war.

Excessive collateral damage in a police action is a crime, in an invasion it is inevitable and lawful. Both HAMAS & HEZBOLLAH must be very careful not to allow the problem to increase any further, but I bet it does.

Inshallah

2bob

Very WELL DONE Kalin...and Sganot also, considerable research has been done there !

At LAST we are starting to see some wood instead of trees.

Kalin, in regard to the Jewish mindset, you didn't go far enough back to portray it such that others can gain an appreciation of it re the land.

It is impossible to appreciate this, unless we know the events leading up to the Destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD70ish.
Do we not wonder why the Jewish diaspora has remained to cohesive over 2000 years ?

Why did Masada happen ? What motivated the Jews to be so staunch ?
What about Bar Kokhba's revolt in 135, the Macabeean wars pre Christ.
Why is it that TORAH is a feature of Jewish life in all parts of the world in the diaspora ?

ONE REASON and ONE reason ALONE.

Genesis 13:14

The LORD said to Abram after Lot had parted from him, "Lift up your eyes from where you are and look north and south, east and west. 15 All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring [a] forever. 16 I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted. 17 Go, walk through the length and breadth of the land, for I am giving it to you."

OK.. this explains the Jewish connection to the land.

The availability of this promise, depended on OBEDIENCE to the Law and covenant. So, it is reasonable to say that Jews NOT living in obedience to their covenant calling have no right (other than 'might') to the land.

Christians are in reality divided as to whether this applies to today.
Jesus was/is the fulfillment of the covenant, the Law etc, so in our view (some) there is no need for the land anymore. To unconverted religious Jews, they would see it in terms of the original promise.
Non religious Jews would more likely see it in terms of survival and nationalism.

PRACTICAL SOLUTIONS.

having now tossed around some rather radical ideas, and the debate arriving at the more balanced point as reflected in Kalins good post, we can now look at real solutions.

1/ Dispersion and Absorption for displaced Muslim Arabs.

This would not really need to involve the whole Muslim population. The primary sources of militancy come from the refugee camps of Ramallah (where the Arabs of Lydda and Ramla were driven) and from other camps in Gaza and West bank. These are the prime candidates for re-settlement (willing or not) and absorption in other countries (Muslim/Arab)

The remainder would be required to committ to:
a) Submission to Israeli rule
b) Loyalty to the Israeli State.

This would be in the form of a ‘treaty’ which Muslims are very familiar with in terms of their own history and Mohammed’s example. Muslims understand that the breaking of a treaty is a death wish, so it should be effective. Specially after the first few executions for those who break it.
(as the 700-900 Jews of Banu Qurayza were executed by Mohamed for this reason)

2/ Return of Exiled Arabs to previous locations within Israel ?

This is unfortunately not even on the ladder of possible solutions, but without it, things will never change from generation to generation, so this leaves solution 1 above as the only viable one.

Approaches such as Strewths, are designed and calculated to achieve just one goal, supremacy and dominance of Muslims in Palestine and the removal of Jews. He/She is irrelevant.

DEMOGRAPHY While the overall fertility rate of Palestinian Muslim Arabs in Jordan,Gaza and West bank is actually DEcreasing, importantly, the fertility rate among REFUGEES is ‘increasing’. Gaza is notable in this regard. So, the highest growth in population of Muslims is among those who nourish the ‘hate Israel’ industry.

http://www.iussp.org/Brazil2001/s60/S62_02_khawaja.pdf

While exiled Arab Muslims remain in the vicinity of their previous homes, -dreaming of peace is to live in fantasyland. (20 miles from Ramallah to Lydda I think)

UN mandated Jerusalem? In the light of history, just a pipe dream.

.

As previous attempts to resolve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict have been totally unsuccessful, how about trying some extreme remedies? Such as removing Jerusalem from the equation by making it an independant city state like the Vatican, administered as a holy city by a Jewish, Christian & Islamic triumvirate. Such as the international community forcing Israel to comply with UN resolutions and retreat to its internationally recognized borders and remove its west bank settlements. Such as arming the Palestinians on a par with Israel so they can have a mini cold war across their border – with luck neither of them would dare attack. Such as telling the Palestinians that if they want to breed like rabbits they will have to put up with living like rabbits.