Coach

Who or what created god?

Am waiting with a-n-t-i-c-i-p-a-t-i-o-n for your polite and erudite answer.

;-)

Scout,

I-thought-you-were-asking-rhetorical-questions. Furthermore-you-were-addressing-your-post-to-"the religious”-which-as-I-explained-many-times- don’t-feel-I-belong-to-that-group.(TIC)

If you are really seeking answers – and I hope you are – I am willing to give it my best.

WHERE-DID-GOD-COME-FROM?
WHO/WHAT-CREATED-GOD?
IF-GOD-ALWAYS-EXISTED,-HOW-COME?
HOW-CAN-ANYTHING-ALWAYS-EXIST?

I have answered that in my previous posts – by saying that God is outside our (scientific) confines of time and space.

The bible starts with: “In-the-beginning-God-created-the-heavens-and-the-earth…”

God is the creator of all things; assuming of course that the bible is not a fairy tale. It does not start with “…Once-upon-a-time-…”

So there is a beginning and there will be an end (then a new heaven and a new earth).

Before that beginning there was nothing. God created all things from nothingness. God existed in that nothingness. He always existed; outside the beginning and the end.

Therefore God did not need a creator. It is beyond our human capacity to understand : “HOW-CAN-ANYTHING-ALWAYS-EXIST?” but-hey-this-is-God-we-are-talking-about.

Which takes us to science versus faith.

Science is the observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena; to gain a greater understanding of our natural universe NOT the supernatural.

I have a complete “faith” in God and a great admiration for science; knowing that one is perfect, and the other (science) has limitations.

I get my faith in God by knowing and having faith in His Son Jesus – who is the fullness of God himself. So God in His ultimate love for us becam human to make us believe in Him.

I get my faith from His Word, and faith in His Holy Spirit for guidance in understanding.

The word of God is alive. It is not just text. It was not meant to be scrutinised scientifically (although most of its assertions have been proven by science). The bible is also the most reliable historical account of humanity.

What I am saying is my faith is not a blind faith, but based on enough evidence and deductions that refute any sceptical criticisms.

You should have started your questioning by : WHO IS GOD? Then is would have been easier to understand (and maybe not ask) the other questions.

I appreciate the time you have taken in answering my question.

You stated: “I have answered that in my previous posts – by saying that God is outside our (scientific) confines of time and space.”
This confirms my earlier statement that it is impossible to have a rational debate about the existence of god. You state that you don’t include yourself as a part of the ‘religious’ contingent, yet you frequently make the most literal interpretations of the bible among all the Christians I know. For example, damnation of non-believers no matter how decent and well they lived their lives.

You use bible text to prove your belief when you state: “The bible starts with: “In-the-beginning-God-created-the-heavens-and-the-earth…”

Coach this does not answer my original question – how did god start?
You say god always did exist - cannot you not see how impossible this is?

OK.

Lets assume that god did indeed create life, the universe and everything….. I am sure that you are aware just how vast our universe is, our galaxy is just one among trillions of galaxies, there may even be more than one universe.

This brings me to another question.

In terms of the currently know size of the universe, our planet is to the universe as an atom is to the ocean, why would a god create such vastness only to concentrate on a bunch on humans. There are other planets, no doubt there are other life forms. So why planet earth, in particular? Did god get it so wrong an infinite number of times that the only intelligent life s/he could create was us? Out of all the trillions of other planets?

You state: “Which takes us to science versus faith."

To Be Continued.............

Coach states: “Science is the observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena; to gain a greater understanding of our natural universe NOT the supernatural.”

Er, Coach, the ‘supernatural’ as you call it may well have a rational explanation – we just don’t know it yet.

Further, you state: “The word of God is alive. It is not just text. It was not meant to be scrutinised scientifically (although most of its assertions have been proven by science)..”

Wrong, virgin birth; impossible, great flood; not the entire earth, the Ark; couldn’t have possibly contained ALL the earth’s creatures, turning people into pillars of salt and so on – you say it isn’t a fairy tale, when that is just what it reads like.

Then you state: “The bible is also the most reliable historical account of humanity”

It omits more of human history than it accounts. Stone age people, other races on other continents, such as Inuits, Native Americans, Native Australians; none of these people rate a mention in the bible. All it accounts is confined to the middle east.

I am sure you gain much comfort from your beliefs, therefore, can you not understand those of us who hold other beliefs are surely entitled to be treated with respect and not condemnation as you frequently do. That you actually believe good people will suffer for ever, simply for not believing as you is the ultimate absurdity and reveals religion as the furphy it is.

Finally you have the arrogance to actually TELL me what I should do when you stated: “You should have started your questioning by : WHO IS GOD? Then is would have been easier to understand (and maybe not ask) the other questions.”

Coach or should I say Grasshopper, there are NO wrong questions, only wrong answers.

Dear John Warren,

You state that: "Tomess: Your dimensional illustration reinforces a point I have been trying to make. If your 2 dimensional being goes through life, unaware of the 3rd dimension and unaffected by it, then its existence is irrelevant just as the existence of the supernatural realm is irrelevant to us. Speculation about its existence maybe entertaining and the subject of novels but it remains speculation."

[On the contrary, I argued that the supernatural, if it exists, would affect the 'Natural'. The 3rd dimension would affect the 2 dimensional world at every point of that world, despite a 2nd dimensional being only dimly aware of that further dimension.

As to original sin and poverty, why this 'either/or' distinction? Why can't social ills be both. This is precisely my point that a 3rd dimension would impact a 2nd dimension in the form of discrete and yet simultaneous phenonema.

Finally, who's suggesting that prayer is a substitute for taking action against poverty? Certainly not Bono, with his (and Peter Garrett's and the church's and unions' and others' campaign to Make Poverty History), nor Tim Costello's World Vision campaign, just for starters.

The statement "prayer is no substitute for understanding reality. And understanding is the goal of science" goes pretty close to the arrogant suggestion that science is the only logical system that seeks understanding. Just because understanding is the goal of science, does that mean it is not also a goal of religion, or magic for that matter.

Kind regards,

Tom Spencer

Coach, I know we cannot help you but let's try again. The anthropocentric mindset seeks a finite created universe where we get fashionable teddies of all types, creators of all sorts and the big bang religion which talks about an expanding universe and is akin to that old flat Earth theory. We also get nonsense like multiple universes, parallel universes, collapsing universes, designed universes, etc. Just why do so many people imagine that any self respecting teddy would make one of those with a ME in the centre? LOL

To help you overcome your obvious anthropocentric mindset and much rote learning, you may like to consider this ..........
If from the formation of our solar system to the present represents a walk of one mile (1.6 Kilometres), then 0.001 of an inch (.0254 millimeters) or half the thickness of a medium human hair = human lifetime.

Also, prior to 1920 we humans couldn't see beyond our galaxy the Milky Way and this was thought to be the whole universe. We now see countless galaxies with much improved instruments. Some are huge. Because there is so much that cannot be explained or known it is still not unreasonable to make the statement that we have an infinite environment always existing. We can only base this on reasoned and logical deductions from what we do know and this all points to infinite processes.

The problem as I see it is that our human minds have a tendency to think in finite closed systems and impose this notion to everything. This attitude now looks out dated because it will never come to grips with the imperfections produced by INFINITY. We have an infinite ever changing and irreversible universe. It is an environment. It's a pity many people don't get it nor want one of these beauties.

If people need something more in their lives than just the material world then just study what is, and you'll find that it already is far more uplifting than anything you could imagine needing.