Dear John Warren,

Your use of 'supernatural' invites a response. You state that 'scientific investigations, whether by Newton or any other scientist who believes in the supernatural, never ever include a factor for a supernatural being or force in their calculations or explanations. That does not prove the non-existence of the supernatural but it does confirm its irrelevance'.

Something that is not stated can be either irrelevant or so fundamental as to be assumed.

The existence of the supernatural is perhaps best expressed in terms of a person who was somehow able to live in a 2 dimensional world (such as a circle), trying to explain to other '2 dim' folk (no pun intended!) the existence of a 3rd dimension (such as in a sphere of which that circle is part). The sphere is nowhere to be seen, because it is present everywhere. It touches each part of the circle, and yet is invisible to those who insist that there is no 3rd dimension.

If the supernatural does exist, as I believe it does, it would operate at every point of the 'Nature' to which it is 'super', or beyond. If it was just an attachment to one part of Nature, it would merely be part of Nature instead.

Kind regards,

Tomess

I find it interesting that the religious continually expound that science can't answer every question. Their favourite example of this is in positing that science can't fully explain the creation of the universe, there being disagreement over the big bang theory and so on. Where science cannot provide an explanation is commonly referred to as the god of the gaps.

Where science fails, there must be god.

Apart from the fact that science is continually growing, evolving, refining and discovering more all the time, lets assume there is a supernatural being that created everything. My question to the religious is WHERE DID GOD COME FROM?

WHO/WHAT CREATED GOD?

IF GOD ALWAYS EXISTED, HOW COME?

HOW CAN ANYTHING ALWAYS EXIST?

And we are back to the same argument. How did it all start? Religion can never answer this question, however there is a chance (not in our lifetimes) that science will.

My point is that god cannot be rationally explained and therefore it is impossible to hold a rational debate with the religious. They will always retreat into 'faith', 'belief' and so on.

So for the religious, where proof fails, god exists; god of the intellectual vacuum.

Scout nicely put.

I've done some more pondering on the differences between believers in fairies and monothiests.
- Believers in fairies don't come door to door marketing
- Believers in fairies don't threaten me with eternal punishment if I don't share their beliefs
- Believers in fairies don't try and interfere in what I do behind closed doors
- Believers in fairies do help kids deal with the loss of those early teeth in a fun manner
- Believers in fairies don't get a tax (or rates) exemption to help spread their beliefs
- Believers in fairies don't spend their spare time telling us how terrible elf believers are and why they should all be deported or bombed (nor do elf supporters do so regarding fairy believers).
- Mostly believers in fairies have the good grace to allow for the possibility that they may be wrong.
- Believers in fairies don't try and have their beliefs treated as science in schools.
- Believers in fairies create much more entertaining films than monothiests.

All in all a belief in fairies looks like a lot less trouble to the rest of us than monothiestic beliefs. Apologies to those who live out their monothiestic beliefs with respect for the beliefs of others - well done if you do so.

R0bert

Tomess: Your dimensional illustration reinforces a point I have been trying to make. If your 2 dimensional being goes through life, unaware of the 3rd dimension and unaffected by it, then its existence is irrelevant just as the existence of the supernatural realm is irrelevant to us. Speculation about its existence maybe entertaining and the subject of novels but it remains speculation.

If someone robs you of your purse; is that the result of original sin, or is it the result of poverty? We can’t do much about original sin except pray but we can take action against poverty. Prayer is no substitute for understanding reality. And understanding is the goal of science.

John Warren,

>>I personally believe that God and fairies exist in people’s brains and, to that extent, influence those people’s behaviour but they are not external forces. <<

This is where you are wrong about God (we will leave fairies alone for this discussion). Because you have dismissed the idea of an external invisible spiritual ‘force’ doesn’t mean it does not exist. If you have deregistered the concept of God from your intellectual consciousness, it does not mean it is not real in many real life experiences.

To throw an example here: – miracles. Unexplainable, outside science comprehension yet visibly there, and physically occurring daily.

If a documented phenomenon outside the scientific observables is happening, there must be an outside force – call it spiritual or magical – the fact is it’s there. Your denial of its existence is not going to make it obsolete or imaginary.

You admit that science does not have all the answers yet. Maybe there is an 'outside-your-brain' reason for that...

It is impossible to prove God scientifically (He is outside our confines of time and space). But we can prove Him historically. The evidence is overwhelmingly everywhere...except in your own belief.

coach "To throw an example here: – miracles. Unexplainable, outside science comprehension yet visibly there, and physically occurring daily." The most remarkable thing about them is their ability to absent themselves from any kind of controlled independent observation.

Scout coverered part of the issue earlier regarding an intellectual vacuum. There are things we don't yet understand in particular the human minds ability to manage our bodies but that does not imply the existance of a particular supernatural being.

For an unexplained phenonema to give any kind of justification to the belief in a particular supernatural being those phenonema would have to occur exclusively in association with one particular belief system. The reality is that they are much less discriminating than that.

I guess you can fall back to the idea that the bits you like are the works of god and the stuff that happens to other types of believers is from the devil but that is a bit to much of a copp out to bother with.

Now about that 8th floor window and christian jumpers -

R0bert