Coach, if there is a god, does this mean that there is also a heaven and a hell?

And what about angels, sons of god, devils etc?

tao, you may be being a bit two generalised in the comment "Which is why it is just as credible to assert that the universe was created by fairies as it is to assert that it was created by a God. All religions are just as “in”credible as each other."

A religious belief/theory has a place while it's claims do not conflict with observed reality. As with any other theory it remain just that until such time as the body of evidence to support it overwhelms that supporting any other theory - then we start to trat it as something more.

Some religious beliefs are clearly in conflict with the bulk of evidence or require some massive stretches of twisted logic to support. A literal 7 day creation some thousands of years ago is one well known example of this which some still persist in treating as reality.

If all theories which contain a supernatural element are dismissed on that basis then fall into the same trap as those who dismiss all theories which do not conform to their own supernatural bias. Let them all be judged on the weight of evidence.

R0bert

Coach, my late Auntie Tessie used to sprinkle holy water over me every time I left the house, and say a prayer for my safe return. When I did return, dismissing the care I’d exercised in dodging lightning bolts and runaway buses, she’d say, “See, it worked.”

This simple woman’s certainties are very seductive in our fast-changing times, but now as then, there’s no substitute for looking right and left when you cross the road.

You are a little confused about what Warren is arguing. He has not stated that there is no god, neither has anyone else in this discussion. The argument is that because god and the supernatural are not amenable to scientific proof, they are not appropriate guides for our decision-making. To give a practical example, we base our decisions about airline pilots and heart surgeons on their science, not their religion, and we do this for very good reasons.

Your point about it being impossible to prove that god doesn’t exist is as illogical as Tessie’s belief that the holy water had protected me and brought me home. It’s normally impossible to prove a negative, so it’s equally possible to argue that since you can’t prove otherwise, the Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://www.venganza.org/) could be the creator and guiding spirit of the universe.

Like Auntie Tessie’s, your faith and devotion are both worthy and endearing. Still, I’m sure you would prefer to choose arguments which place your god on a higher footing than Anubis, the bunyip, Pegasus, Santa Claus, Puff the Magic Dragon ...

Mark Richardson: Anyone who believes that they know the answer retards the progress of investigation. This is so in science as well as with religion. There have been many cases of scientists believing that they know the result and adapting experimental results to confirm it. When they are found out they are regarded as cheats. Religious people believe that the final answer to everything is God and this retards their ability to investigate the real mechanism behind earthly phenomena.

Of course it is not possible to disprove the existence of the supernatural, or fairies for that matter. It is evident that religious ideas exist in people’s brains because people say they are there. The scientific approach is to study how those ideas got there. I have tried to present some ideas about that in a previous article: http:/www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3252
And I would welcome your comments.

Tao: I can only agree. By their failure to base education on an understanding of the material basis of existence our politicians obscure the real economic relations which exist between people. It is a great encouragement for demagogues to retain power.

John Warren,

“Religious people believe that the final answer to everything is God and this retards their ability to investigate the real mechanism behind earthly phenomena.”

Not necessarily so. There are many God believer scientists, surgeons, judges, politicians, etc,. Believing in God is the beginning of wisdom in life’s journey – not an end.

Part of God’s creation was to rest (on the 7th day) and let man carry on with managing it...this includes scientific research and discoveries.

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”Of course it is not possible to disprove the existence of the supernatural, or fairies for that matter. “

If you meant God by “the existence of the supernatural”, I find the comparison to fairies very distasteful and childish.
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“It is evident that religious ideas exist in people’s brains because people say they are there.”

Faith is not a belief as such – if that is what you are implying. It is a total and absolute conviction that is based on historical, social, observed facts and reported phenomena…

I believe in Jesus’ life, death and resurrection because of the above – and not because someone or some external image got planted in my brain.

Your dismissal of God as the creator of all things visible and invisible is like ignoring the foundation of a building just because no one can see it.

Dig a little and presto you also can connect with the founder of the universe.

No magic or tricks – It was there all the time – but some did not want to discover it.