Most of Australia's knowledge of Indonesia comes from the situation with East Timor when we capitulated to the take over and then stood by for 24 years while 183,000 innocent men, women and children were slaughtered.

While doing that we treated East Timorese refugees like criminals, some we sent home with a bag of rice and a ground sheet after trying to pretend they were really Portuguese.

Downer actively and blatantly lied to the UN and US when the referendum was happening which resulted in further massacres.

We forced Indonesia to "accept" refugees that wanted to come to Australia but failed to tell Australians that the only reason Indonesia agreed was because we paid for the whole mess and some 230 refugees from Iraq and Afghanistan still rot on Lombok at our expense. Hundreds of others were forced back to those places by Indonesia because they are not signatory to the refugee convention, which Australia is well aware of and chooses to ignore.

If Indonesia don't want us to accept West Papuans they should stop persecuting them and sit down for reasonable talks on autonomy.

Sound simplistic? Nope just the way the rules are written.

"Relax visa's so we can get together and share a nasi gorang or meat pie" How utterly absurd.
As bad as Marilyn's tirade against the wicked Australians.
What must be acknowledged is that we are different but respect should be given and it should be returned. So far it seems to be a one way street.
While Indonesia shelters the cold blooded assassins who murdered Australians ,not once but twice, Australians will always view Indonesia as far from being respectable, indeed verging on criminal.
And in return Australians are asked to dig deep to help this country's never ending disasters. Maybe they should ask themselves what they are doing so wrong.

The only source of problem between Indonesia and Australia came from Australians, who enjoy bashing Indonesia every time they have the opportunity as can be seen from the Schapelle Corby thingy. Indonesia has been given the role of the old "northern peril" bogeyman that always spooked white Australians insecure of their position so close to Asia.

Naturally, Indonesians like any other people dislike being bashed. If Australians do not respect us, you must be looney to expect Indonesians to like Australians. Overall, however, I don't think Indonesians really care about minor country Australia at all. Australia is just a weakling country with little influence or impact for most Indonesians. So, don't worry Ozzies, we Indonesians never really get bothered with you guys.

People to people ties already exist and have for some time. Tell the Corby family about the virtues of people to people ties. One daughter married a Balinese guy and brought up their family in Balinese tradition. Sister comes to visit and look how good people to people ties were for them.

The problem is not between ordinary Aussies and Budis. The problem is between the politicians and bureaucrats who are defending their political interests against the rest of us.. The Australian Government should do exactly what the Indonesian government does - lobby vigourously and openly for our Aussie interests - including the interests of ordinary Aussies in Indonesia who are so easily sold out. That is the only way we will get respect. My Indonesian wife thinks the Australian government is incredibly stupid for caving in to Indonesia on the Papua asylum-seekers. PTBI is right on the ball. The Australian Government will be regarded as a joke and a laughing stock the way we sell off our interests and our people (eg. David Hicks). Unfortunately, as long as DFAT and the rest are controlled by the Jakarta Lobby we don't have much hope.

Hi there
I don't know a lot about Indonesia: I've only ever worked with one or two and I found them great colleagues.

I have read a little about Indonesian culture(s) and language(s), but, again, not a lot. In fact, just enough to know that there are some very different ways of doing things in Indonesia (both different from Australian and different as in variegated).

Neither the article nor the posts have enlightened me very much, but maybe knowledge of Indonesia is assumed by the writers: not a safe assumption all in all. It couldn't be that we Australians assume that Indonesia is just like everywhere else, just with a few quaint customs, because the writer and the posters all seem to have some pretty direct connections with Indonesia.

So, how varied is the culture, the language, the religion, etc within Indonesia? And how different is it from Australia in the deep and meaningful ways like how people think about things?

Or we can just keep slinging insults at each other.

odsoc

It seems that it is going to take some time for Australian governments and voters to fully grasp that Indonesia is undergoing tremendous change. It has thrown off one of the world's most enduring authoritarian regimes. Then, with a minimum of upheaval, it held free and fair elections. These are achievements of which Indonesians are rightly proud.

Fortunately, the strict adherence to a unitary state has weakened and decentralisation has occurred. There have been a lot of teething problems - particularly for foreign investors - but overall, the process offers hope for the long term territorial integrity of Indonesia.

Both Australia and Indonesia must work towards the common goal of making regional autonomy for West Papua a reality.

In respect of terrorism, little attention is given to Indonesia's successes in the fight against terrorism. The trials for the Bali bombers was televised from an open court - something which the United States and other western countries are yet to do. The advice I have been given by Australian lawyers is that Bashir may not have been convicted in an Australian court, given our strict rules on the admissability of evidence.

That said, in time, the people of Indonesia will come to understand how a mature democracy like Australia actually works: that a government's decision to deny visas to people with a well-founded fear of persecution may be challenged and possibly overturned by an independent tribunal; that a professional military stays in the barracks; or that commentary by journalists is beyond the control of the prime minister.

We in Australia inherited 700 years of England's gradual democratic evolution and the rule of law. We must be patient with countries that are starting from scratch and which may be taking a different path to democracy. At the same time, Prime Minister Howard has built a domestic base for our foreign policy by saying that our culture and democratic traditions will not be traded off as part of our engagement with the region. I am confident that Indonesia and Australia have two leaders who can talk candidly about joining these two strands together.

Indeed indonesia must take different path of democracy.

It has been proven that democracy has its own diseases, when people are like ants compared the gigantic power of the capitalists, the merciless governments, and the above-the-law state intellegence services.

What does mature democracy mean? Would it prevent powers from being corrupt? Or democracy is the only way allowed for powers to civilizedly corrupt?

Mother nature relatively kind to us and even we respect her disasters as a kind of warning for us. I pray to God to protect my country Indonesia from the kind of illness we never suffer throughout our history, that we will able to know our limit and tame our own desire.

We could be good neighbours one to another as long as Aussie is a kind of healthy system who never twist democracy, human rights and another goodness of millenium for the sake of hidden yet easily known human desires.

Amen.

If neighbours are involved in various crimes then to be friendly to them, and assist them materially, amounts to being accessories to their crimes.
So what is the ‘friendship’ between the Australian government and the thieves and criminals that control Indonesia? It may be a country, but the people who have power are participants in a huge criminal conspiracy against the majority of the population. They steal everything they can and aren’t accountable because the extent of the corruption extends to every sector and level of Indonesian political, commercial and administrative life and is the root cause of most of the problems experienced by the millions who don’t share in the stolen wealth of the nation but suffer the consequences of a ruling class government and administration bent on lining their own pockets at their expense.
A mix of incompetence and corruption.
The ill legal system, which is said to hand out the best judgements money can buy, is so completely crooked that it is impossible to even get into law school without paying a bribe, and after that everything has a price. Like all things in Indonesia. Whether it is buying your driver’s license or passing a vehicle emission test, or getting out of jail.
The police and army are all involved in smuggling drugs, logs, endangered animals and electronics.
According to the Jakarta Post 35% of all money provided by foreign governments and agencies is stolen by government employees. Did the Australian government take that into account when it allocated over a billion dollars of Australian taxpayer’s money that maybe 350 million dollars, or more, will end up in the dirty hands of the most disgustingly greedy thieves in Jakarta; or do they think that is okay? Just the price of diplomacy.
The Indonesian government is made up of fraudsters, thieves, murderers, smugglers, drug dealers, people traffickers, and a few honest people. Just what would the Indonesian government have to do before John Howard would severe diplomatic ties, or at least, stop giving them money and legitimacy?

I'd like to comment on this
"Just what would the Indonesian government have to do before John Howard would severe diplomatic ties, or at least, stop giving them money and legitimacy?"

Lol.
Actually, Indonesia seriously considered to severe the diplomatic ties with Australia over Papua because it was our national integrity at stake. As a foreign ministry spokesman said, severing the ties with Australia was an option on the table, yes it was seriously considered.
At that time, both the govt and Indonesians people are ready to face whatever the consequences are. We have to prepare ourselves.
You can stop giving aid us when we face another disaster, and you can start finding other ways for your trading ships to go to China, Japan, Korea etc without passing through Indonesian waters.
I mean if you really want to cut ties with Indonesia, just as many Indonesians want the govt to cut ties with Australia, then both must ready to face the consequences.

As for the corruption, SBY is trying so hard to fight it, and he said that we need 'shock therapy'. So we see big names are in jail now for corruption, other big names are on trial, and the trend will continue.
It's not an easy task, it would take time, but I believe he's on the right track and worth to be supported

"The Indonesian government is made up of fraudsters, thieves, murderers, smugglers, drug dealers, people traffickers, and a few honest people."

Very serious accusation here and of no value. And this come from a country who is very well-known of it very very dark history with the Aborinial people. Duh

I really wonder why Australia should bother with Indonesia at all. If it were up to me I would cut all ties with this ungrateful, corrupt entity. This maladministered archipelago has such a puffed up sense of self-importance, but from what? The colossal egos of their leaders, the diplomatic games they play with official visit appointments - what on earth do they have to be proud of? Indonesia does not seem to understand that respect cannot be demanded - it has to be earned. Anyway, on a world level who really cares about this minor economic pygmy - from now on China is the only game in town.

This contemptible country cannot properly house, feed, or clothe its people, you cannot drink water from the taps, sanitation is abysmal. To me these are the things that command respect. Countries that have hauled themselves out of poverty and provide for their citizens like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Estonia etc deserve respect, but this neighbour of ours does not. Countries like Norway and Sweden also deserve respect because of how they care for their citizens and the good works they do on the international scene. Australia is so unlucky to be situated next to this monstrous entity, and it is the only country on Earth I refuse to ever set foot in.

^ Indonesia is the best country in terms of improving the lives of its citizens. Since independence, we've increased literacy rate from 5% to 90%. We've reduced poverty rate from 90% to 10%. We've increased life expectancy from 35 years to 70 years. Almost every single infrastructure existing in Indonesia is built after independence. These accomplishments are attained while Indonesia must start from practically zero after the devastations of WWII and war of independence, despite the fact Indonesia has 250 million people divided into 750 ethnicities living in 18,000 islands stretching the distance from Ireland to Iran. It is without doubt, considering this difficulties, Indonesia is the best country in improving the lives of its citizens.

We have nothing to learn from Australia, a minor stooge of USA and an illegally-established "country" who've despicably committed genocide against its indigenous Aboriginal population and have cruelly stolen their land.

"it is the only country on Earth I refuse to ever set foot in."

I urge all Australians to leave Indonesia immediately. We don't need drug-smugglers in our midst, they only spread bad health.

"Australia is so unlucky to be situated next to this monstrous entity"

There is an excellent solution to this predicament of yours: return Australia to Aborigines now, and go back to whatever place you came from.

@Ningtyas
Seriously, SBY might talk about "shock therapy" but it didn't bring the murderers of Munir to justice even though everyone knew who poisoned him to death while on a Garuda flight, because they are SBY's old buddies. I'd love to see Indonesia get it's act together, for the sake of the millions living in misery and because Australia and Indonesia need to be good neighbours, but the corrupt mentality goes too deep. Sure some things have improved but the problems are so huge and there isn't a young generation of leaders to challenge the new New Order.
Even the late and great Pramoedya Ananta Toer said the only hope for Indonesia was revolution to decapitate the entrenched elite. Indonesia needs all the help it can get so it has to get real about being a global citizen. I think a lot of the indignation from Indonesians comes from knowing that the superficial religiosity they present just shows up the depth of depravity practiced by just about anyone with power to burn slums, clear forests, run away to Singapore with their loot, murder judges, or in Soeharto's case, just sit right in the middle of Jakarta safe in the knowledge that no-one will hold him accountable for all the dead and disapeared during his time on top.

@citizen:

Indonesia's government is elected directly by the people for the people. It has worked well, cutting back poverty from 30% at the height of financial crisis in 1999 to 12% today. Income rates are now much higher than pre-crisis rates. Our economy is now the world's 15th largest economy, larger than Australia, we are growing at respectable 5% p.a. higher than other SE Asian countries.

I think you should not listen to the late Pramoedya Ananta Toer too much. He is a good writer alright, but he was a communist whose feelings will be satisfied only when Indonesia becomes a communist country, hence his talk of "revolution".

Remember, back in Sukarno years, Pram was in leadership of Lekra (People's Culture Organisation), the Indonesian Communist Party (PKI) cultural arm that promoted interesting activities like the burning of Western books, outlawing of rock n roll, the banning of the Beatles, and jailing of many artists that refused to toe the communist line. We can imagine what kind of cultural desert Indonesia would have been had Pram had his way.

Is this person, Proud To Be Indonesian, under the impression that all Australians are Anglo-Saxons? His ignorance just proves that education in Indonesia is rubbish. Australians come from all over the world - 40% of people have at least one parent born overseas and 25% speak a language other than English at home. I showed his comments to a friend who is half-Aboriginal and half Japanese but 100% Aussie, and we just rolled our eyes at his laughable ignorance.

As for Indonesia's development record...sorry, but I'm just not impressed. South Korea was as poor as Sudan in 1945 and now look where it is. In the same time, Indonesia has been going in circles. As for Malaysia, another loathsome country with an attitude problem, it is only because of its industrious Chinese that it has any kind of economy at all. Indonesia's per capita income at purchasing power parity (the only measure that matters) still languishes way below China's and even the Philippines!

I will give Indonesia no respect whatever until the public water supply is drinkable in all parts of the country. In my book this simple test shows the level of commitment to people. Not how many nuclear bombs a country has, not the strength of its army and not the diplomatic grandstanding and swaggering of Indonesia's ruling clique and its cronies.

Indonesia has some real hard work to do before the world gives it any respect. I don't think many Australians care about this Javanese imperialist project that masquerades as a country any more and are just fed up with its petty outbursts, immaturity and posturing. Our two countries need a total divorce on every level, the sooner the better. I'm sure this is one point that PTBI will agree with me on. I'm sorry Duncan Graham, there is no common ground that can ever be found.

@Kvasir:

LOL, Indonesia is currently being wooed by all countries in the world, from USA to Britain to China to Russia. Recently, US Sec-of-State Rice and Defence Secy Rumsfeld came to Jakarta to beg for re-establishment of military relationship with Indonesia. In terms of human rights, Indonesia was elected by 165 countries to become member of new UN Human Rights Council. Indonesia's programs of people's improvement constantly received praise from World Bank, FAO, and other UN organisations. Indonesia also constantly send troops for UN missions to keep world peace from Suez Crisis 1956 to DR of Congo today.

It is clear, Indonesia is located at the pinnacle of international respectability.

On the other hand, Australians are well-known as bunch of lazy beer-gulping, pot-smoking bums who possess a hilariously exaggerated sense of self-importance while in reality they're just a bunch of minor stooges of USA. Additionally, white Australians have committed genocide against Aborigines and have stolen their land, Australia is an illegally-established "country" in which whites have no right to be there. No wonder, everybody value respect from Australians as much as handful of dust, including Indonesia. You are delusional if you think anybody value respect from Australia more than a handful of dust. Australia has done nothing to earn it respect from other countries.

The illegitimate Javanese Imperialist Entity is circling the plughole, and I for one can't wait for it to slide down. The islands that the arrogant, lazy, rent-seeking, corrupt Javanese have stolen from their rightful owners are becoming restless and PTBI knows it - that's why he's so paranoid about his glorious unitary state. The long-suffering Hindu Balinese, the Christian Moluccans and the animist Papuans are becoming fed up with being forced to stay in this cesspool of a country.

The only reason that Rice et al. even bother with Indonesia is that as bothersome as it is as one country, can you imagine if it broke into pieces, each one as much trouble as the other? What a drain on the world it would become. The world prays out of its own self-interest that this vile entity hangs together. In a strange way, I do too. I don't want us to waste any more of our money on helping these worthless, thankless Third World people.

As for being voted by other corrupt Third World countries onto a human rights council in the UN...well, that just proves to me that the UN has become more useless and meaningless than I had even thought.

PTBI just hates Australia because he is jealous of our living standards, public order, lack of corruption (according to Transparency International - BTW where does Indonesia rank, ha ha), our infrastructure, our per capita incomes, our public health standards, but most of all he cannot stand the fact that Australian researchers largely determine what is published and read about Indonesia all over the Anglosphere, mainly because nobody else can be bothered to research this basketcase - we have to only because unfortuntely it lies next to our land, like a government Housing Commission slum next to Double Bay. Like it or not, Australia is the image-maker and PR manager of Indonesia to the rest of the English-speaking world. Australia has the microscope on Indonesia and all its Third World outrages, ready to report to the world. Get over it, and don't forget to behave - we're watching!

@Kvasir:

LOL, indeed Indonesia is seen as such an important country we've been visited by every US president since Nixon. Being an extremely fruitful member of world community, we have good relationship with almost every country in the world, we have excellent relationship with Western countries like USA and UK, with Russia, China, and India. We are well-known as leader of developing world, with over 52 heads-of-state visiting Indonesia during recent Afro-Asian Conference in Bandung. We maintain excellent relationship with Arab countries who donate billions of dollars for victims of recent tsunami and earthquake, while still maintaining secret relationship with Israel.

As for Australia, as I said nobody really cares about these unimportant stooges of USA. Nobody is impressed with lazy people who gain benefit only by stealing other people's land and committed genocide against the indigenous population like Australia. What despicable descendent of criminals!

"Australian researchers largely determine what is published and read about Indonesia all over the Anglosphere, mainly because nobody else can be bothered to research this basketcase "

LOL, what a hilarious display of exagerrated sense of self-importance. The best Indonesian studies centre is in Leiden University in Netherlands, followed by the excellent Indonesia centre in Cornell University in New York. The Indonesian studies centres in Moscow and Prague are also excellent. Australian universities straggle far behind the above places in terms of Indonesian studies. Maybe Australians lack the brain capacity to understand the complexities of Indonesia, perhaps caused by too much beer-gulping and head-banging during their weekly "footy" games.

LOL - PTBI, the ultimate question that I and and many others are wondering...what is there possibly to be proud of in being Indonesian? Are you trying to compensate for the unending shame of allowing yourself to be taken over and ruled for 400 years by a handful of VOC officers from tiny Holland? What spineless weaklings you lot are. What pathetic excuse can you come up for this shameful, humiliating walkover? Of course I understand that Indonesians are lazy and disorganised, but still why did it take 400 YEARS to mount an effective resistance against this handful of Dutch people from one of Europe's smallest nations? Your feeble weakness will stain the image of your country for generations to come. I would love to hear your "creative" response to this question...I'm sure you can make up one. Excuses, excuses...But ultimately: ha, ha, ha - you cannot undo this fact of history.

@Kvasir:

LOL, what an ignorant little boy you are. Let me instruct you in short course of Indonesian history.

The Dutch only take real "control" over what is now Indonesia in 1920, just 22 years before being expelled. Prior to that, Indonesian ethnic-groups, although disunited, waged individual unceasing heroic warfare that drain Dutch national budget and shed much Dutch blood, while limiting Dutch control over few cities and towns (Java War, Aceh War, Bali Wars, Batak War, Kongsi Wars, Pattimura War, Padri War, etc). As result, it took the Dutch over 300 years from its first arrival (1596) to really having control over Indonesia (1920). We can see, for all these centuries of presence which at its peak created the largest white population in any Asian colony, there is hardly any shred of Dutch influence left in Indonesia today, while Dutch language has practically been wiped-out from Indonesia.

"Your feeble weakness will stain the image of your country for generations to come."

LOL, by contrast, Indonesians are eternally proud of our accomplishments in expelling the Dutch by killing 4000 Dutch soldiers during war of independence (1945-1949) and by expelling the Dutch from West Papua in 1962. Another addition to our laurels is our success in expelling 500,000 white parasite settlers out of Indonesia during 1950s while confiscating all their possessions. Our victories against the evil Dutch will forever be a uniting fond memory shared by all Indonesians. We will be pleased the day the Aborigines do the same with the white parasites currently squatting in their land.

PTBI, whatever...yawn

@Kvasir:

Don't worry, your arrogance and bullying attitude are now serving very nice purpose: you have united entire Indonesian people in contemptous loathing against the despicable white squatters currently illegally inhabiting Australia :-D