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The Forum > Article Comments > The debacle that is East Timor > Comments

The debacle that is East Timor : Comments

By Jim Morris, published 7/6/2006

Contrary to the propaganda it was always just East Timorese against East Timorese.

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Is Australia being suckered into the wars of the Portuguese succesion.Thirty years of war in Angola and Mozambique have been the price Africans have paid for a third rate empire. Salazar must laughing in his grave at Howard's second dose of folly.
Posted by Vioetbou, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 10:08:39 AM
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At last! An alternative to the feel-good, emotional claptrap we usually hear about East Timor.

It’s interesting to be reminded that the left, every-group-has-the-right-to-independence mob were all in favour of this preposterous and expensive (to Australia) “freeing” of East Timor, when their political arm, the ALP, was always happy to leave things they way they were; and it is quite weird that the Coalition finally did the dopey deed for them.

If Indonesia still had control of East Timor, criminals would not now be running around hacking into each other with machetes, and rendering terrified women and children homeless and, at one stage, bringing them to the brink of starvation. So, under a different Indonesian regime, bad things might have been done in East Timor. But, the East Timorese are now doing bad things to each other under the incompetent governance of people who thought they could run East Timor better than Indonesia did.

What a tragic and stupid affair the desire for a free East Timor has turned out to be. Australia’s part in the fiasco has to be the biggest mistake made by the Coalition Government in it’s ten years in office, and it will always be a blot on the otherwise excellent record of John Howard, who should have known better.
Posted by Leigh, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 10:56:41 AM
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Oh, the poor Suharto government it just "had" to invade Timor Leste, following the election of a left-of-centre government. It would serve as such a terrible example. Imagine having elected governments. Imagine having left of centre governments. Such a crime.

Fortunately, Suharto's meeting with Gerald Ford and Henry Kissinger a day before the invasion confirmed that he had the "right" to invade. It would have happened regardless of whether or not UDT/Fretlin were fighting each other. Suharto simply could not tolerate having a democratically elected government within the Indonesian archipelago.

Contrary to the author's claim, most Australians who are aware of Timor Leste are also aware that there was a brief civil war following the coup attempt by the UDT on August 11, 1975 which was over within a few weeks according to the aid organisations present at the time.

In the legislative elections of 2001 the UDT received 2.4 % of the popular vote and 2 out of 88 seats. In contrast Fretilin polled 57.4% of the vote and took 55 seats in the 88-seat Assembly.

As for the Balibo newsmen being killed as being "responsible for their own deaths", the people responsible are those who killed them. The reporters were in an East Timor which, at the time, was part of Portugal. They were killed in October by an Indonesian military incursion - the full invasion of East Timor wasn't until December.
Posted by Lev, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 10:58:04 AM
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As an outside observer, the perennial problems in East Timor seem to stem from a recurring cycle of poverty, poor education and lack of work, whether the country is self ruled or no. Many people, adult males in particular, appear to have nothing to do all day, and no meaningful work or productive interests. Their pre-occupation is how to survive the next few days, rather than acting upon long term goals. Wherever there are many people with nothing to do, only a minor incident can incite people into violence against individuals that they hold responsible for their situation in life. The individuals would typically be those associated with the local authority.

Unfortunately, this propensity for violence and disorder seems to be a common characteristic of former Latin colonies, whether Spanish or Portuguese. Only Latin countries rich in resources, like Brazil and Venezuela, which nevertheless have had periods of instability, avoid anarchy. A similar disorder is also observed in the Middle East. However, a people who live where there are limited resources should still be able to improve their situation, as Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore and many continental European countries have done.
Posted by Robg, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 11:32:27 AM
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I have to admit I was taken in by the stories about how these poor people needed self independance.
Then they shafted us on the oil deal. Seeing Gusmau and Ramos Horta totally ambivalent about some journalists or something being killed just goes to show the true colours of these people. They dont give a rats about the issues that were the platform of their rise to prominence, they've seccumbed to the lure of oil money and are cheap imitations of the dictators they so opposed in the past.
Posted by The all seeing omnipotent voice of reason, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 11:44:30 AM
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Tell me why is Australia at the forefront of a Portugese problem.
It is clearly against Australia's long term interests to involve itself. In a dispute that goes back to when the first Portugese seamen
took a liking for the local Timorese.For more than 500 years the whitest Timorese wanted to be top dog.
Now the "whitese" have joined their Marxist brothers from Africa and decided to lay claim to half the Timor Sea's future wealth and it will not be long to wait too see the lucky Timorese lining up at the gaming tables of Monte Carlo,just as their African cousins have benn doing for the last two decades.
It is in the interest of world stability that Australia take the lions share of the Timor Sea's wealth and continues with humanitarian
aid to the TRUE Timorese,the rural poor.
If Australian troops do as they did in Timor in 1997,intimidating Timorese youths, we can expect a backlash similar to the Bali bombings,and a strong feeling of Anti Australianism in the region.
It was the newly elected East Timorese government that wanted the national language Portugese,so let the Portugese pay all costs of stopping the anachy.
The Marxist Australian Democrats are jumping up and down as usual,don't listen to them.
Posted by BROCK, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 12:46:51 PM
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this conflict to me underlines two important things.. 1. how even if all the population of one country has been converted to a particular religion yet the fighting goes on,among themselves.it only goes to say that if u try and manipulate and induce peole to change their religion it only seeds more violence.and once people are addicted to violence it becomes difficult to control later.
2. how the media especially of the west manipulates the news to suit thier intrest. we have seen this time and again in iraq afghanistan etc etc. in the days heading to war with iraq the american media has prepared ground by manipulating public opinion in favour of war and after the war is over and lakhs of people killed or maimed now they are blaming the government,i feel they are equally responsible as george bush is.
Posted by mak, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 2:13:55 PM
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Timor appears to be a rudderless ship with an incompetent captain who has no control and would rather spend his time in the cabin.
Why does Australia have to be the sucker for all the failed states?
If these countries had any backbone they would not have idle young men looking for mischief.
There is energy there but that energy is being wasted in anarchy that is getting no one anywhere.
Posted by mickijo, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 2:14:23 PM
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East Timor will be a failed state because it has very little means of exportable production to give those of employable age, somewhere to work and get a wage?

With gas and oil deposits so close, with Australia having almost grabbed them, what about us setting up a refinery there for them?

What about getting hep from Indonesia with a fish canning factory or suchlike?

Our PM seems so full of ideas lately, all his own apparently, with his use of his very personal I rather than a democratic we , yet he does not appear to cotton on that why the young ones are creating a disturbance in East Tmor, especially the 600 kicked out of the military, is they having nothing there to keep 'em busy, only fight one another.

You certainly won't get any medals for this one, Johnny, seeing that your military looks likes its going to be replaced by the UN. 'bout time, anyway, as well as in other places, especially Iraq, which is a mess of a dog's breakfast, if ever there was one.

Come on, Howard, for Christ's sake
Posted by bushbred, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 3:33:13 PM
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Leigh said:

What a tragic and stupid affair the desire for a free East Timor has turned out to be.

.. and in doing so, you highlight a crucial aspect of any 'freedom' or independance movement.

WHO..... is driving the agenda..and why ?
HOW MUCH of the populace do they represent ?
WHAT will 'they' (those driving the agenda) do to those of different political/ethnic background once they obtain 'freedom'. ?

Clearly, even if Brushy's suggestions were taken up.. the bread on the table/ employment/jobs thing, the ethnic rivaly.. would still be there. They would just be attacking each other on full stomachs rather than empty ones.

They would still be suspicious of the way government aid is handed out, and whether it favored the ethnic/political group of such and such a minister.

In short. Ethnically diverse communities are time bombs.

Why ? simple. Human nature !

So, now donning my newly found "Anglo supremacist" :) garb...I stand outside the doors of Parliment house and cry out at the stupidity of an uncontrolled unselective immigration policy, a non descript education policy bereft of historical content suitable for nation building, and an economic policy answerable to who knows. (George Soros ?)

East Timor is an object lesson. It is also a 'prophet'.. "Thus will you be if you are not vigilant"

Do I hear a bleating "Multiculturalism" coming from over there on my left ? Yes..I do.. but its fading quickly.. a mere echo of an age no longer relevant to reality.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 5:24:36 PM
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A typical piece of Jakarta lobby propaganda, replete with distortions and tendentious claptrap.

Morris would have had the Indons deport the Christian clergy in East Timor...a human rights violation even Suharto's butchers did not attempt.

The Dili massacre took place in 1991, as Morris says. Howard was not even in Govt then...what had this to do with his eventual backflip in the late nineties (except as evidence of how TNI could indulge itself in "a frenzy of killing", that is)?

The journos murdered in Balibo in 1975 were certainly incautious...Morris wd have it that therefore they in effect killed themselves. What rubbish.

The current situation E. Timor is certainly due to the failings of the Dili Govt, no argument. Does this in some way justify the proposition that the country shd have been left to Indonesian oppression and the occasional "frenzy of killing"?

Morris shd go back to Jakarta and resume editing "Indonesia Daily". No doubt that's where he wd feel most at home, among his murderous mates.
Posted by Mhoram, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 6:49:05 PM
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This an incredibly stupid article about a serious topic. There were never any refugee camps in West Timor presided over by militia? (I was in Kupang in June 2000 and I can tell you there were!) Christianity is an alien concept that has no part in Asia? (yes, Laskar Jihad and al-Qaeda would agree completely!)

Mr Morris, are you trying to compete with the Fretilin lackeys of the Australian Left for the propagandist of the year award? Indeed, the current crisis in East Timor is the fault of the incompetent Fretilin government of Alkatiri who is seen by many to rule for the sole benefit of a small group of Portuguese-speaking former exiles from Mozambique, but don't let's go to the other extreme and white-wash everything Indonesia did in Timor.

As always, the truth lies far from both the leftist fantasyland described in the article and the Jakarta Lobby's ravings. A pox on both your houses.
Posted by rogindon, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 8:29:45 PM
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It's hardly worth the effort responding to such ill informed rubbish and indeed most of the misguided posts that question the rights of people to want Independence over brutal repression from an invader.

Distasteful as it must be to some,the Majority of East Timorese support Fretilin which was founded on 20th May 1974 following the demise of the Portuguese fascist Salazar/ Gaetarno regime in a bloodless coup on the 25th April 1974, 25 days earlier.

The party of the elites and Portuguese expats was UDT (Timor Democratic Union) who initially formed a fragile coalition with Fretilin as the ASDT.They were so dismayed by the overwhelming support for Fretilin by the Maubere ( majority Native population)that they pulled out of the coalition and staged a coup attempt which started fratricidal killing.

The Portuguese bureaucrats and Governor abandoned the Capital Dili and moved to Atauro island while Fretilin put down the coup and offered control back to the Governor.
They refused to take back the reins of Government from Fretilin who were quite happy to go to an election and did not want to take power by force.

When UDT were overrun by Fretilin within 3 weeks, they called on Indonesia for support, accusing Fretilin as being 'communist'which it was not.The Indonesians invaded after being given the green light from Gerald Ford and Henry Kissenger.

What followed was 24 years of brutal repression with acess denied to independent observers.

Habibi agreed to a referendum which he believed would not support Independence because the TNI and their Militias carried out a policy of threats and intimidation. We all saw what they did under the noses of the UN and yes, they took about 180,000 across the border into refugee camps which still exist.

TNI and Militia criminals have not yet been brought to justice
Posted by maracas, Thursday, 8 June 2006 12:06:10 AM
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So the Balibo journalists, in bravely seeking to discover the truth and bring it to the world, were largely responsible for their own deaths? This appalling statement tries to deflect criticism of the cold-blooded murderers who killed them, and of the Australian bureaucrats and politicians who, ever since, have meekly washed their hands of the affair. How, Mr Morris, can we discover the truth if journalists are prevented from doing their job?

Of course Indonesia has been presented as the boogie-man: its army illegally invaded East Timor then proceeded to wipe out its inhabitants and steal their property and resources – with, as it happens, total impunity. Mr Morris apparently thinks such behaviour is OK.

"Selective and even untrue information about East Timor" has come from Australian politicians and bureaucrats following the official appeasement line, all faithfully reported, rarely critically, by Australia's compliant media. The TNI's actions in Timor were in fact far worse than was ever reported.

There was plenty of "information about the amount of money the Indonesian Government was pouring into East Timor for development of roads etc" – I remember seeing it. Official propaganda. But the roads – such as they are - were built primarily for military purposes, and the hospitals were primarily for military use. The schools were used to indoctrinate students in Indonesian values.

In the brief civil war that broke out in 1975 – provoked by Indonesian agents, who encouraged UDT to wipe out its coalition partner Fretilin – Timorese protagonists killed each other. That's what happens in wars, civil or not. Indonesia then used that as a pretext to invade. In 1998 it started forming, arming, and paying militia, encouraging them to attack fellow citizens who supported independence. Thousands of innocent people were murdered, before and after the referendum. Australia knew about this, but did nothing to stop the killing, muttering, instead, about "rogue elements". Today's violence has most of its roots in past conflicts. Blaming the Timorese, as Mr Morris does, not only blames the victims but seeks to ignore Indonesia's role in the whole mess.
Posted by little red hen, Thursday, 8 June 2006 12:09:47 AM
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Part 11
After the Independence vote,the election of the Alkatiri Government was democratically conducted and the present 'debacle' is a product of the work of the same elements assisted by covert external elements who seek to gain by deposing a Nationalist socially responsible Government which continues to implement policies aimed at sustainable development dealing with priorities determined by the Parliament.The elite elements opposing the Government want open slather foreign investment and borrowings from the IMF for fast infrastructure growth.

Australia dislikes Alkatiri for his hard bargaining over the Timor Gap issue and Oil revenues and The US is angry that East Timor has done a deal with Cuba for 300 doctors to work in the countryside. (250 are working already) The Catholic church is angry because the East Timor Constitution provides for a secular Government which separates the State from the Church.They demonise Alkatiri as a Muslim devil.

Australia wants Alkatiri's resignation and openly encourages the rebel elements with constant media coverage of a deserter who sought to overthrow the democratically elected Government by force and encouraged the present violence and arson by young militias.

Understand that Fretilin is defending the Constitution and Alkatiri will not resign.
An election is scheduled for next year and it is in that forum where the future of East Timor lies.

The Howard Government's agenda is clearly for "regime change". Their preferred candidate is Jose Ramos Horta who is not elected and is not likely to stand for election because contrary to western opinion, is not widely acceptable.

East Timor did not want the UN to withdraw so early but this was a preference of Australia and the US most likely to placate Indonesia As it happens, Alkatiri asked for police to help quell the violence, not Military.

The East Timorese people deserve support in their move towards democracy and less uninformed, misguided undermining of a Government trying to govern for the Majority not the elites.
Posted by maracas, Thursday, 8 June 2006 12:24:07 AM
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Hey Maracas...
I don't think we always see eye to eye on some things, but I sure appreciate your comprehensive account of the various factions and forces at work in E.Timor. Outstanding.

You must have access to a considerable body of information most of us are not privy to, or have a particular interest in this area.

What I complement you on, is how you highlighted the Cuban doctors, the Timor Gap the Catholic church re Alkatiri and the such like, and how various external interests are all seeking to benefit from and shape the place according to their own interests.

Aspects you did not touch on, and if u have details I'd appreciate knowing about are:

1/ Where do the Transmigrants brought in by Indonesia fit into this puzzle in terms of loyalties alleigances ?
2/ The Rebel leader does not seem to represent Indonesian interests, yet he is in West Timor geographically, which is seen to be pro Indo.
Any comment on that ?

We need to apply the same analytical approach to Australia itself. In particular to the pressures on our own cultural and ethnic mix, by whom and for what reasons and who's interests are ultimately served by diluting our heritage.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 8 June 2006 8:01:27 AM
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Maracas,
You gave an overview of East Timorese history, but what you don't say is most relevant to our discussion. Governments are usually given a period of 100 days in office to prove they have achieved something. Fretilin has had 4 years. Conveniently, you have said nothing about the part of Timor's history that is most relevant - the last 4 years. I want to know how many jobs has Fretilin created for its people? You don't have to believe me about the terrible harm being done to the country by the Altakiri government. Just watch it on your TV screens every night. Watch the looting and killings. Watch the demonstrations calling for Alkatiri's resignation. Are you saying the protesters are paid? How many are demonstrating in his favour? Fretilin is the new Golkar. Its legacy will be the same as that of all the other African countries that they model their governance on - poverty, dictatorship, human rights abuse and then more poverty again....

BOAZ_David,
1. Almost all the Indonesian transmigrants have gone home to a better country.
2. The rebel leader just wants a better deal for his country - the country he fought for. He's not aligned to Indonesia.
Posted by rogindon, Thursday, 8 June 2006 1:31:13 PM
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Why do some people automatically assume I am pro-Indonesian when I attempt to clarify some points that have been obscured for so long? I am definitely not. Rather I feel compassion for the ordinary people who have sufferred so much as a result of the machinations of the Catholic church and the latte lefties.
After 350 years of catholicism only 3% of the population were literate. The church kept the conflict going for all those years while Indonesia pumped in $100 million per year trying to stabilise the situation. They educated a generation of East Timorese in Indonesian universities and created a civil service and decent infrastrucure.
I went to the camps around Atambua and saw the homeless, stateless people living in abject poverty, there only crime to have voted for the status quo.
One of the main problems for East Timor is overpopulation caused by the Catholic churche's attitude to contraception. Condoms are not allowed in East Timor and almost every woman has 10 kids.
From my experience in East Timor I know that the people there are violent by nature, even if it is more likely to be referred to as 'emotional'. Traditionally they were headhunters.
Bottom line is that Australia has scored itself a dead-end colony when a better aproach may have been the tying of aid money to genuine reforms throughout Indonesia so that all Indonesians could have been free'ed from the filthily corrupt elite that keeps the masses poor. My main intention is to cause the do-gooders to think a bit more deeply before they create a similar disaster in West Papua.
Posted by citizen, Thursday, 8 June 2006 1:31:55 PM
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I do love a good conspiracy theory. Really I do. But it needs to at least appear to be more than a product of some partisan's imagination to capture my attention.

The gist of this one is that the East Timorese stabbed a couple of Indo soldiers, predicting soldiers would react by massacaring hundreds of Timorese, thereby capturing John Howard's bleeding heart, years before he was even opposition leader, leading to us making Indonesia have a referendum, which the Conspirators would rig in order to get oil money.

Whew! Damn brilliant, huh? The Protocols of the Elders of East Timor! And it all went according to plan!

C'mon you knuckleheads! Morris is surely taking the piss...
Posted by Gordo, Thursday, 8 June 2006 4:06:19 PM
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From Shirley Shackleton to the ignorant. The Balibo Five (as my husband and his colleagues are now called) were just doing their job.
And they did it so well that they were murdered by Indonesian military thugs and Timorese opportunist's on one of their regular hit and run attacks against the citizens of Portuguese Timor. The murders took place on 16th. October and the Indonesian invasion did not occur until 7th December. Indonesia has never admitted to the murders and as far as any Australain government is concerned, the Balibo Five do not exist.

I would have thought that Australian citizens (if the morons who blame the Balibo Five for their own deaths) would not approve of the murders if only for their own sakes.

So may lies have been told that even experts refer to them on a regular basis, but then so many books and articles have been published that it is not difficult to work out the truth of what happened to the much maligned Timorese. So go to it.
Posted by leirbag, Thursday, 8 June 2006 9:57:29 PM
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Rogingdon... yes, good points. The last 4 yrs.

Do you have any information more solid about the transmigrants ? Were they part of the large numbers who went to West Timor after the referendum ? I'd like to know more about this.

My gut feeling about how things have been going for the past 4 yrs is something like this. (based on the confessions of the 'hit' squad Alkatiri allegedly formed)

The government, or significant sections of it, would be simply manouvering for a more stable and solid level of control in this interim period between initial independance and the flow of cash from the oil.

-Get rid of potential enemies

They probably have long range plans in mind, to chanel funds to various resistance groups but who knows, I'm just speculating.

One thing is for sure, we can all clearly see the need for a 'big and powerful' controlling/stabilizing influence which is not linked ethnically to any one group in the country.

I again underline the importance for Australia of avoiding large concentrations of ethnically/religiously homogonous groups here, and for the same reasons.

The basic blending of our English/Irish/Welsh/Scottish and northern European races and the blurring of the ethnic boundaries has served us very well in producing and enjoying the peace we have now, not too many of us have a strong sense of "I'm a [name of ethnic group] Aussie"

When at a multicultural/mixed marraige get together last week, white dudes all called themselves 'Australians' and their ethnic wives called themselves 'Chinese' 'Philippino' etc I avoided the VERY tempting question of asking the wives 'what identity are your children :) maybe at the next Barby ...
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 9 June 2006 6:31:55 AM
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Wisdom from today's letters to The Age.

http://www.theage.com.au/text/articles/2006/06/08/1149359880936.html

Elizabete Lim Gomes, Bentleigh
Posted by Lev, Friday, 9 June 2006 8:38:48 AM
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Boaz David
In response to your questions:
1. Any transmigrants Indonesia transplanted in East Timor would have most likely cast their vote for Autonomy. Since the overwhelming vote was for Independence, those people harbouring Indonesian sentiments and loyalties would have been amongst the flood of 'refugees' across the border to West Timor. Many pro-Indonesian militias still in East Timor were urged to own up to their 'crimes' during a truth and reconciliation exercise and in the spirit of reconciliation were forgiven.
Prior to the Indonesian invasion there were no East / West divisions but what ethnic rivalries that now exist are a legacy of Indonesian occupation which I believe have been encouraged by opposition elements to deliberately undermine unity. The Indonesian occupiers worked to create divisions amongst the East Timorese so as to sap Fretilin's loyalty base. Some East Timorese benefitted from the occupation and remember the difference of opinion about the Official language stems from the fact that Indonesians forced the teaching of Bahasa which current students were educated in.

2. Military deserter, Reinardo has been influenced by his military training in Australia and his non-participation in the guerilla struggle for independence. I understand he spent his adolescence as a servant of Indonesians and later lived comfortably with his family in Perth .
By any stretch of the imagination, his desertion was not acceptable and I believe he has been used as a foil for the unrest ,violence, escalating arson and criminal activity to deliberately unseat the Government.

Rogindon
Do you honestly expect the Alkatiri Government to perform miracles in 100 days from a position of utter devastation ? Alkatiri gave a comprehensive report of East Timor's progress in April this year to the Donor Country's Meeting where he made it clear that sustainable improvements would take time. The people doing the burning and looting are anti- government elements, do you expect Alkatiri to accept their manipulators as an alternative Government ?
Get real.
Posted by maracas, Friday, 9 June 2006 8:49:42 AM
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This article of Jim Morris reminds me the writings of those who deny the holocaust. Like Chomsky, who defended the right of Robert Faurisson to express his thoughts on the grounds of freedom of speech, I would say that Morris has the right to publish whatever he wants. But I disagree with Shirley Shackleton when she calls him ignorant. His article does not reveal his ignorance, it shows his bad faith. He may call himself a journalist, but is nothing more than a tool of those criminal Indonesian military allowed (until now) to enjoy impunity. Everyone who knows a little about East Timor will define this article as extreme-right rubbish.
Posted by PeterMilk, Friday, 9 June 2006 10:58:41 AM
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PeterMilk,
I agree completely. Morris' article is trash. You can't whitewash the Indonesian invasion and the use of that poor country as a place for the Indonesian military to increase their rank. Timorese have the right to self-determination which they legitimately exercised in 1999 in favor of independence.

Maracas,
Having said the above, this is where I disagree with you. FACT NUMBER ONE - We can beat about the bush all we like, but the current troubles in East Timor are completely caused by the East Timorese people themselves. It's just masturbation to blame the UN, Indonesia, Australia. I'm surprised someone hasn't blamed George Bush yet. Any takers?

What we are seeing in 2006 is a sad replay of 1975 all over again minus the invasion. I was in Jakarta in 1998. I watched how an unpopular and undemocratic dictator was overthrown within 6 months of him no longer being able to deliver the economic goods. People don't generally burn and loot in a country where the government is democratically elected, manages the economy and listens to complaints. What do you think is motivating the protesters?

BOAZ_David,
I was in Dili in 1991 when there were many Indonesians. After the referendum, there are VERY few. There are just a few Indonesian women married to Timorese men as well as a community of a few hundred Indonesian muslims from Sumatra who live near the mosque, but I heard most of them have left too.
Posted by rogindon, Friday, 9 June 2006 9:06:39 PM
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Part 2
Maracas said: "The people doing the burning and looting are anti- government elements, do you expect Alkatiri to accept their manipulators as an alternative Government ?"

Yes, I do expect Alkatiri, if he's a democrat, to accept those opposed to his rule (eg. PD, PSD, PST) as an alternative government. Do you expect the non-Fretilin groups to accept Alkatiri's death squads and militia as the acts of a legitimate government?
Posted by rogindon, Friday, 9 June 2006 9:14:55 PM
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Rogindon
Alkatiri would concede if the parties you support for Government were elected.. But they were not. Fretilin was elected with an overwhelming majority and they will be again because they have the support of the majority of the people.

I am surprised you have accepted the allegations of Alkatiri setting up death squads and militias from amongst the rebels He doesn't need death squads when he has a big majority from a democratic election.. Didn't he just sack them ?.There is not one shred of evidence. Horta is taking advantage of the allegations from rebels which are unsubstantiated.. Have you noticed that he coyly says he finds it hard to believe ..But he is willing to accept the position of Prime Minister if asked.?( e tu Brutus !! )

Ask yourself why Gerald Ford and Henry Kissinger O.K'd the Indonesian invasion in 1975 and given that fact, do you not think the USA is concerned about Alkatiri developing relations with Cuba and not capable of some CIA interference ? and John Howard being pissed off that Australia has not been offered development contracts of East Timors Oil and Gas resources but discussions taking place with China .
Posted by maracas, Saturday, 10 June 2006 12:09:00 AM
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Good on you for presenting an alternative (and potentially inflammatory) view of Timor. I don't necessarily agree with everything you say, but I'm impressed that you said it and cast a fresh angle on the goings-on in the region.

A couple of thoughts, though.

The first is that a lot of what you say reads suspiciously like Indonesian propaganda I have read. It's good to see what the other side is saying, but a bit of balance would have been good. Perhaps it is true, perhaps not. I've never credited the Indonesian propaganda juggernaut with much respect for truth, but you never know.

The second is your attack on Christianity in the region. True, it is a source of conflict, but it has been there for 500 years now. Islam was also an immigrant faith, having arrived something like 600-700 years earlier. Both are firmly rooted in their respective populations.

The reality is, as you say, today's Timorese ARE fighting each other and can NOT blame Indonesia for their problems. I don't know that they were much better off under Indonesian rule, but they probably weren't much worse off either.
Posted by Otokonoko, Saturday, 10 June 2006 12:13:16 AM
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Anyone who worships Fidel Castro is destined for their own destruction. But the legacy of such depravity as Marxism, there is no room for reality, is there?
Posted by All-, Saturday, 10 June 2006 10:58:53 AM
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I agree. Some great points of view on this issue.

The question is why were 600 soldiers sacked from the army?

It is also apparent developing democracies tend to go through a period of overthrowing leaderships by force.

Amongst this is a division of community groups which ignites at the same time.

The next question is, why did it get to this stage?

You would have thought that with Australia's first intervention and the amount of money spent by Australian tax payers, that our Governments ties with regards to its development and progress would have been courtously monitored, in a cost saving exercise for futures risks to the region.

It's a "No Brainer"!
Posted by Suebdootwo, Saturday, 10 June 2006 12:03:52 PM
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I agree wholeheartedly with Mr Morris's analysis. His no-nonsense disclosure of the truth about East Timor is like a solitary lighthouse in the middle of the dark expense of Australian ignorance.

Indeed East Timor is not a viable state, the recent collapse of that "country" is bound to happen sooner and later. East Timorese "leaders" proved to be nothing but incompetent buffoons who are incapable of running a tiny half-island with landmass smaller than Bahamas. Their "military" and "police" is nothing more but a rabble of armed gangsters who enjoy killing each other. Their half-civilised people are nothing more but a bunch of violent people whose hobby is engaging in primitive ethnic-warfare.

Quite pathetic, even the worst African countries like Somalia experienced stability and functioning govt for decades after independence. East Timor, receipient of much international aid, collapsed into a failed state within 4 years of self-rule. Now the fat clown Jose Ramos-Horta is begging for UN re-colonisation.

It is good that Indonesia expelled this hopeless half-island from our republic so we are no longer burdened with need to subsidise this worthless piece of real estate. We are better-off while they are clearly worse-off without our supervision. Every year after independence, lack of maintanence means East Timor's Indonesian-built road network are shrinking yearly while neglect of education means illiteracy continue its upward march.

Suharto is right, East Timor is Southeast Asian Haiti that require more advanced outside rulers just to stay afloat. I'm sure what happened last month will be repeated over-and-over again in East Timor in the future. By wanting independence, ET basically committed collective suicide.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Saturday, 10 June 2006 8:01:13 PM
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@maracas:

Hey hippie, your despicable slanders against Indonesia is useless, it won't cover-up the bare truth of East Timorese incompetence. Your attempts to scape-goat Indonesia for the comedic collapse of East Timor is pathetic. Deal with it, your friend the Fretilin is nothing but a joke and East Timor is just a failed state. Prior to 1999 referendum, brain-dead hippies like you brainwashed the dummy East Timorese, saying they'll experience nirvana after independence. Turns out that is just your marijuana-induced fantasy, as independence only became an irreversible descent to hell for East Timorese.

It is useless, no matter what you do, there is nothing that can sustain inherently flawed concept of East Timorese "state". It is beyond doubt that East Timor is much better-off under Indonesia. So, your joke about East Timorese "independence" only makes everyone worse-off: the East Timorese who is trapped in a failed hopeless state, Australians who must bear the burden of keeping East Timor from complete disintegration, and UN for the creation of yet naother failed-state cum basketcase. The only winner in East Timorese "independence" is Indonesia, who brilliantly expel this half-island, as now we are no longer burdened with the need to subsidise the hopeless half-island.

BTW bear in mind, we Indonesians will not take your slanders face-down. We will not allow ourselves to be scapegoated. As our saying goes, "slander is worse than murder". You watch your smelly mouth next time you try slandering Indonesia.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Saturday, 10 June 2006 8:14:02 PM
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Indonesian Ali is at it again.

He thinks it might become true if he keeps telling himself that Indonesia is not the corrupt neo colonial repressive state that it has become.

Indonesia did not leave willingly, They slunk out of East Timor with their tails between their legs like the curs they are after burning property and murdering innocent ,defenceless women , children and old people who voted for Independence... The TNI and their militia lackeys were afraid of facing Australian Soldiers.

I have no doubts whatsoever that Indonesian led militias ,criminals and thugs were involved in the efforts to destabilise the fledgling East Timor Government and Prime Minister Alkatiri.

The East Timorese made the mistake of not rooting out the Indonesian spies and informers who still live there .Instead they embraced them in the spirit of reconciliation.
Posted by maracas, Saturday, 10 June 2006 9:09:03 PM
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@maracas:

LOL, why don't you try praising Alkatiri in front of loromonu (westerners) East Timorese. I'm sure they'll dandily have your head chopped-off and your eyes gouged-out in no time.

Pathetic dumb hippie, you keep scape-goating Indonesians, Americans, Australians, and everyone else for the failure of East Timor, while failing to see the obvious cause: incompetence of the East Timorese "government" themselves. It is clear East Timor is not capable of being independent, it'll always be a failed state and permanent basketcase. You're just too dumb to see this obvious fact that is as clear as daylight.

As for East Timorese independence, indeed this was a gift benevolently given by our President Habibie, an excellent gesture never done by any other country. Too bad the East Timorese failed to utilise our gift, they've completely screwed the independence Habibie gave them.

"The TNI and their militia lackeys were afraid of facing Australian Soldiers."

LOL, is this a kind of marijuana-induced hippie joke? Actually your INTERFET soldiers in 1999 were just tourists in vacation to the tropics, with their accomodation and travelling needs arranged by our Indonesian soldiers for three months until we depart on November 1999. During the deaprting ceremony, your General Cosgrove thanked Indonesia for our aid in making the vacation of Australian soldiers in Timor an enjoyable one.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/purnomor/purnomor/UT0007469.jpg
INDONESIAN SOLDIER GIVING WARM WELCOME TO AUSSIE TOURIST TO DILI, 1999

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/purnomor/purnomor/UT0007414.jpg
INDONESIAN SOLDIER DRIVE AUSSIE TOURIST IN SIGHT-SEEING TOUR OF DILI, 1999
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Sunday, 11 June 2006 11:57:13 PM
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Proud To Be Javanese.
Good to see you back online-you went quiet there for a while.
I sincerely hope you had no friends or relations caught-up in the latest earthquake & all is returning to normal.

Back to business:
"As for East Timorese independence, indeed this was a gift benevolently given by our President Habibie, an excellent gesture'

Since Habibie is in a benevolent mood.
Would you please have a whisper in his ear about granting independence to the long suffering West Irianese & Acehese?
Posted by Horus, Monday, 12 June 2006 8:20:06 AM
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@Horus:

LOL, West Papua and Aceh is an integral part of the Indonesian motherland as they are part of the old Netherlands Indies, our original claimed in 1945 consists of all territories within Netherlands Indies' borders. So, Indonesia will maintain integrity of our country within these borders to our last drop of blood and our last gasp of breath as mandated by our 1945 Constitution. We will never give up even an inch of our sacred motherland.

As for territories outside old Netherlands Indies, we are free to annex or expel these areas according to the needs of the times (in case of East Timor, to crush communism).
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Monday, 12 June 2006 10:34:16 AM
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...I'm probably one of the biggest employer in the private sector here in timor-leste. The recent descent into chaos is beyond comprehension. I was fortunate to have left in '75 to Australia but on my returnn to TL since 2000, I have never been more confused about the 'state of play' here. One thing is for certain and that is the many layers of 'complex' emotions hidden under the maubere people whilst on the surface, they can mislead you with the most beautiful of smiles. I have learnt alot in venturing out to this neck of the woods. I now admire the efforts of the leaders in Indonesia to try and 'gel' a country with so many different ethnicities. If only Timor-Leste can export rumours here...we'll make more money than our oil and gas projects. One thing is for certain, I have never felt a sense of embarrassment with recent events. I know there are many people out there now saying...I told you so! The way forward is now more complex and difficult. I really don't know how Timor-Leste can resolve another crisis of late given that there are previous crisis still unresolved. With over 98% of the population catholic...why has God forsaken the people of Timor-Leste. Lagaman
Posted by lagaman, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 7:43:42 PM
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I refer to the comment;

"West Papua and Aceh is an integral part of the Indonesian motherland as they are part of the old Netherlands Indies, our original claimed in 1945 consists of all territories within Netherlands Indies' borders."

In other words, Dutch colonialism was replaced by an Indonesian colonialism. Genuine claims self-determination are annulled as the notorious "Act of Free Choice" in West Papua clearly showed; and if a neighbour has the "wrong politics" that is simply and opportunity for invasion.

Of course, Indonesia's political structure - a unitary state claiming an area of 13,000 islands and 300 languages inevitably meant that the armed forces were going to spend most of their time killing their own people rather than defending their borders. Indonesia would have been a lot better off if they actually followed their original idea and used a federal rather than unitary constitution.

And, to bring this back on-topic, perhaps the same may be appropriate for Timor Leste.
Posted by Lev, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 9:14:47 PM
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@Lev:

There is no such thing as "Indonesian colonialism" as every region and ethnicity in Indonesia is put in equal level with equal rights and obligations.

Meanwhile, evil Dutch colonialism was openly meant to leech Indonesian resources for the benefit of Netherlands (30% of Dutch national budget came from Indonesia) with the 500,000 white settlers legally considered as ruling race with status of first-class citizens on top of an apartheid legal system. Natives were put as third-class citizens with basically no rights at all yet were burdened with paralysing taxes and corvee labour obligations.

And Indonesian military killed 4000 Dutch soldiers and 1500 British soldiers during war of independence, and also killed 250 British, Malaysian, and Commonwealth soldiers during the border war with Malaysia (1964-1966). Indonesians soldiers are so effective in fighting external enemies, so no foreign country dare to bother Indonesian territory.

About East Timor, the best solution is to divide the country into two separate states: Timor Loromonu (west) and Timor Lorosae (east). Otherwise, you'll always have civil war situation between the two ethnic-groups if a united East Timor "state" is maintained.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 2:13:30 AM
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If there was no such thing as Indonesian colonialism then there would be no independence movements, regardless of the 'in principle' equal rights which you claim.

You also appear to be quite unaware of ethnic divisions in Timor Leste; there are actually fifteen indigenous ethnic groups, and three language families, in the country along with a small number of Hakka Chinese.

The best way to prevent warfare there is to have a democratic and decentralised political system. Providing the thirteen regional governments some constitutional authority would be the best way to diffuse the centralisation of power and resources that currently exists in Dili.

The same applies to Indonesia as well. A unitary state simply doesn't work in such a diverse place. That's why the Indonesian government has such a history of killing its own people.

People don't go to war with the government when they have the right and ability to manage their own affairs.

I look forward to the today when the Malay archipelago is part of one federal, secular and democratic nation with far reaching civil liberties. Then, and only then, can the existing nations sustain any claim to being modern.
Posted by Lev, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 8:25:50 AM
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I don't agree with the way Indonesia governed East Timor and the way its military like Prabowo used the place as a miltary training ground. However, having said that, I find myself largely in agreement with PTBI. Sad analysis, sad country. Perhaps the Portuguese had the right idea all along by not wasting too much money there.
Posted by rogindon, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 8:39:48 AM
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People seem to have forgotten that East Timor only came into existence because the Dutch and Portuguese decided to stop squabbling by dividing Timor into two, the east catholic and the west protestant. The enclave of Oecussi is still there, completely disconnected from the rest of East Timor, because it was the first place the Portuguese had set up camp.
Posted by citizen, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 2:58:43 PM
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@Lev:

LOL, Indonesia faces no threat from separatism. There are over 750 ethnic-groups in Indonesia living on 18,000 islands strecthing the distance of Ireland to Iran. Only in Papua there are still separatism (the other Aceh separatism having surrendered). The cause is simple: Hitlerite Papuan ethnic-chauvinism. These brainless Papuan separatists are just a joke, they are just ill-behaved children compared with real lethal separatist groups like IRA in United Kingdom, NPA and MILF in Philippines, PULO in Thailand, Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, and the hundreds of armed separatist outfits
in India's Kashmir and Northeast. For instance, we only need less than 10,000 soldiers and police in huge West Papua, while UK army put nearly one-third of its strength to impose British rule in the tiny Northern Ireland, much more than British troops in Iraq.

Indonesia, the most decentralised country in the world, is fine as it is.

@citizen:

Indeed, East Timor is just an artificial construct born out of Portuguese vanity. They held-on to this half-island as a sad reminder that they once had many colonial possessions throughout Indonesia before being kicked-out by the Dutch.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 5:10:02 PM
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@Proud
I remember reading an article in Kompas that the first president Soekarno said that our country is "The most broken-up country in the world" (maybe it's a joke) when he adress the need of indonesia to have a strong Air Force.
Indonesia is just fine. :) I don't think it will be broken up like what some Australians hope so.

As an Indonesian with a bit Acehnese in my blood, I am happy with Aceh peace deal. People think that the rebels are in a solid unity between themselves, while in fact they are divided. If Aceh got freedom, they will stop fighting Indonesia and start fighting each other over power.

East Timor is a sad case. I remember in the past Soeharto regime said that if East Timor given referendum they would descend into civil war, and the pro-independence activist would comment that that was only a voice of one who want to hold status quo.
Also remember that Abdurrahman Wahid said that Indonesia will be fine without East Timor but East Timor won't survive without Indonesia, to which Xanana said that East Timor would be just fine wihout Indonesia. I sincerely hope they prove it. A stable and peaceful neighbor is better than a chaotic one.
Posted by Ningtyas, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 5:59:10 PM
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If East Timor is an artificial construct born out of Portuguese vanity, then surely Indonesia is an artificial construct born out of Dutch vanity?
Posted by Otokonoko, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 11:42:01 PM
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This is really bizaare that Australians are telling Indonesians to adopt our Federal system, claiming that our system is superior to theirs. This is not only offencive as it is patronising to Indonesia.

Federation never was efficient! Federation was only formed because 100 years ago, the 6 British colonies hated each others guts, and they were all so currupt, none admitted their own courruption, but all noted each other's corruption.

The only thing that made Australia a Federation was Xenophobia. They wanted one army to keep unwanted immigrants out: "the yellow peril". This was of course the unofficial "white Australia Policy". NSW Governor Parke's 20 year campaign for Federation never worked for its virtues. When huge boats of Chinese wanted to immigrate and tried to dock in, Melbourne, Sydney, and Brisbane all cities rejected them. The anti-Chinese demonstrations were the largest public demonstrations in Australian history, they were in hysterical panic.

A Federation was not a desired outcome for a respected British Colony, it was a compromise. The British and New Zealand Unitary systems were always the more respected role models in the commonwealth: just like 'mother England', as it was more efficient, standard, and pragmatic. The British feared our proposal was hybridised with the US system, and this was not Cricket!

Federations are expensive: 3 levels of Government, beurocratic, and since 1901, the borders are all outdated. This system is nothing else but tired and quite frankly, full of itself.

East Timor was always about the oil for Australia. Nothing else. In the Solomon Islands, Fiji and Vanuatu, Australia and its corporations do the same to them all. They make sure the chief of police and the the Chief Justice is appointed by Australia. Their PMs take orders from the Australian appoinments. They will try this in East Timor now. Australia systematically stirred the pot to start with. There will be no peace before Australia gets what it wants. Australia is an empire with an agenda. It wants no criticism for stealing the oil wells.
Posted by saintfletcher, Thursday, 15 June 2006 2:33:13 AM
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@otokonoko:

Wrong, Indonesia is a pure idea created in the huge all-Indonesia student conference on October 28, 1928 where students representing ethnic-groups from Sumatera to West Timor braved threats of Dutch secret police PID (Politieke Inlichtingen Dienst) to pledge the creation of one people, one nation, and one language : INDONESIA. This pledge was accomplished by proclamation of Indonesian Republic in 1945 and reigned victorious over attempt to destroy it by an invasion force of 200,000 Dutch soldiers during war of independence (1945-49) thanks to the wholehearted support of Indonesian people.

East Timor, meanwhile, has always been a fragmented society with opposing aims based on ideology and ethnicity. As we can see with its rapid descent to self-destruction, East Timorese "independence" is not sustainable because it is an idea that was not created from within, but one that is imposed and shoved down their throat by foreign outsiders. During the referendum, uneducated East Timorese were easily fooled by endless brainwashing and propaganda from foreigners that falsely promised nirvana if they separate from Indonesia.

As recent events shown, there is simply no feeling of unity or nationalism amongst East Timorese, with the people completely having no regard for the so-called "leaders" like Ramos-Horta and Alkatiri who are foreigners for them. As we can see, none of these "leaders" have any influence over East Timorese people, they are completely unable to prevent total collapse of their country into failed state. Now, these clowns are now hilariously begging for East Timor to be re-colonised by the UN.

@saintfletcher:
You are right, it is hilarious that an Australian try to tell Indonesia to abandon our superior indigenously-made system for their own flawed system that was created only to strengthen xenophobic White Australia Policy.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Thursday, 15 June 2006 3:09:38 AM
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@saintfletcher

I agree with you that Australia's federal system was adopted as a compromise between the British colonies and is no longer necessarily appropriate for Australia. However, in Indonesia it is appropriate. A dispassionate study of the objective conditions of Indonesia will show why a unitary government is inappropriate. If you like, you may compare the internal warfare and suppression of the Republic of Indonesia to the Federation of Malaysia.

@proud
Just because Indonesia faces no obvious military threat to seperatism does not mean that the sentiment does not exist. After all, Indonesia certainly faced no military threat from Timor Leste independence fighters by the late 1990s; they had less than 300 arms. However almost 80% of the population still voted for independence.

Apart from a clear sentiment for political autonomy (and often outright independence) in West Papua and Acheh. It is, of course, ridiculous to claim that GAM has surrended. The 2005 Helsinki peace treaty is not a surrender by any stretch of the imagination.

Further, you've conviently left out the religous violence in Lombok and the Moluccas, and the indigenous seperatist violence in Kalimatan.

All of which does raise an interesting question; would you be prepared to see independence or autonomy referendums conducted in said regions and for that matter, Bali?

And if not, would you still be "proud" of Indonesia if it returned to being a military dictatorship, or if it gave up any pretense of secularism, or if it engaged in state-sponsored terrorism?

I just want to see what you're truly proud of
Posted by Lev, Thursday, 15 June 2006 8:54:55 AM
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PTBI,

I assume that you are an ordinary indonesian citizen, and not a stooge for the Indonesian government.

If so, I am pleased that you are contributing to this discussion for it is good to get a feel for the mindset of ordinary indonesians.

reading what you have to say makes it very clear that the problems which exist between australia and Indonesia are almost irreconsilable.

You should understand that most australians cannot ignore or accept the mass murder commited by Indonesia in E Timor or what amounts to genocide in West Papua.

In the case of West Papua, Indonesia is a brutal illegitimate colonial power with absolutely no legitimate reason to be there.

You are deluding yourself if you think the "act of free choice" was a legitimate and valid process. West Papua deserved its independence then and deserves it now.

It would be a wonderful thing if you and your fellow indonesians would carefully reflect on these matters.
Posted by last word, Thursday, 15 June 2006 12:18:21 PM
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@ Otokonoko

Indonesia was not "an artificial construct born out of Dutch vanity", Nusantara Indonesia had existed for centuries before the Dutch arrived in the form of the Majapahit Kingdom which included Timor. You just have to look at a map and see that to the north, east and west of Timor all is Indonesia and Timor's "seperatness" is only derived from catholicism.
@PTBI
East Timor should have been easily reabsorbed back into Indonesia, as Macau was into China and Goa into India, so why did the Indonesian government allow the church there to manipulate the situation for so long that the present situation came about? Fretelin was virtually wiped out within months, so what do you think went wrong?
Posted by citizen, Thursday, 15 June 2006 2:36:39 PM
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@citizen

I can only assume your question to proud is rhetorical.

I also assume you mean Falintil rather than Fretilin.

At the time of invasion Falintil had 2,500 troops plus another 15,000 or so supporters that had some military training. Rather than being "virtually wiped out within months", they conducted an extremely successful military campaign for several years until the British provider Harrier jets and US OV-10-Bronco's made the military option less tenanable.

After Xanana took over Falintil in 1981 the strategy turned to cladestine activities, with cease-fire talks being held in 1983 between Xanana and the Indonesian military. Attempts to destroy Falintil were quite unsuccessful to say the least.

see: http://www.uc.pt/timor/resist.html for a rather amazing image!

and

http://www.mega.nu/ampp/nunestimor.html for a brief history of the resistance.

Whilst Falnitil casulties were extremely low, especially in proportion to the casulties inflicted, the civilian population was heavily targetted instead.

Even in 1997 Indonesians were joining;
see http://www.serve.com/inside/edit71/Nasir.htm

For a reasonably good potted history the following provides some basic facts;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1504243.stm
Posted by Lev, Thursday, 15 June 2006 3:09:29 PM
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last word,
like australian there are different opinions in Indonesia. Well, PTBI reflects the view of some indonesian, but not all indonesian. Actually most Indonesian are not well informed about separatists movement in Aceh, Papua, or East Timor, including their campaign at foreign countries.

But I'm sure every Indonesian always disagree with the militaric way Suharto's regime govern Aceh, Timor, and Papua. It has been has for long become "public issues", and in those issues Indonesian goverment got opposition from indonesian intellectuals such as Dr.Sri Bintang, Dr.Amin Rais and many others as well as from several political parties.

Contrary to australians view, that is only result from media propagandas, Mr Morris made valid points that Indonesia also did many things good to the provinces like health and education and other infrastructures.

And along with present reformation, all provinces in indo pose greater autonomy. Aceh and Papua already got "special autonomy" since 2001, although the implementations are still not yet as perfect as what had been expected. As the present results, autonomies raised many small corruptors in provinces, that creates overnumbered job for polices and law officers.

Like one's opinion before, the future of Indo will be a federation. Only because of people sensitivity, indonesian leaders support the concept of provincial autonomy "otonomi daerah", that is in essence no different with federation concept, and also a sudden change to federal goverment may bring no good to Indonesia.

cheer
Posted by Jelata, Thursday, 15 June 2006 3:46:07 PM
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Scholars tend to agree that, while the Majapahit empire dominated the Indonesian archipelago, it was by no means a united and peaceful empire. It fell apart when other kingdoms grew more powerful - kingdoms that did not want to be part of the empire.

I appreciate that the kingdom was used as a symbol of Indonesian unity - much as the memory of the Roman Empire was invoked by Mussolini and the memory of Great Zimbabwe was invoked by Mugabe and other Zimbabwean nationalists. Most nations look to the past for evidence of their legitimacy.

That's not to say that Indonesia is not a legitimate nation. Just that, in its current form, it was unified by the Dutch and not by a pre-existing empire.
Posted by Otokonoko, Thursday, 15 June 2006 10:15:44 PM
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@citizen

I was amazed when I was first told many years ago that attempts were made to claim that Indonesia's heritage dates back to the Hindu Majapahit kingdom and even more amazed to hear that this was supposed to include Timor Leste.

Despite my aesthetic fondness for the culture, the dry facts are the Majapahit kingdom arose in the very late 13th century. In the middle of the 14th century it was significant for a generation and then fell into decline and was completely dissolved by 1527. It really wasn't that significant in the history of the world.

At its height it consisted of much of Java and Sumatra, Bali and a thin strip to Malacca. One poem from the period, the Nagarakertagama, quotes a long list of states, from which gifts were given. This includes the island "East", which as the explorer Tomé Pires pointed out in the 16 century, includes every and any island east of Java. Likewise Meilink-Roelofsz mentions that in about 1415 the power of Majapahit included Malaca as a vassal sate. But he excludes the islands of Timor and Flores.

You may wish to confirm this through sources such as Slametmujhana's "A Story of Majapahit" (Singapore University Press Pt Ltd, 1976), Lee E. Williams, in is book -"Southeast Asia, a History" Oxford University Press, 1976, and M.C. Ricklefs' "A History of Modern Indonesia Since C. 1200" (Stanford University Press, 2002)

As for the claim 'You just have to look at a map and see that to the north, east and west of Timor all is Indonesia and Timor's "seperatness" is only derived from catholicism', I humbly suggest to you that perhaps you are forgetting that Flores is overwhelmingly Catholic (north west) as well along with a not insignificant number of Christians in Wetar (north) and of couse, the majority of the population in Tanimbar Islands (east).

So really you're talking about West Timor, right? No wrong again. West Timor's main religions are Catholic (56%), Protestant (35%) and Islam (8%).

So where were you talking about, if not north, west or east of Timor Leste?
Posted by Lev, Friday, 16 June 2006 10:54:33 AM
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This is the first time I've been involved in posting comments and I've learnt that a lot of nit-picking goes on. East Timor is only different from the surrounding area because it was colonised by the catholic Portuguese who agreed with the Dutch to put a line on the map dividing Timor into two parts.
I spent 3 months doing a research program on Majapahit at a university in Java so I do know something about it. Enough to say that Indonesia wasn't "an artificial construct born out of Dutch vanity". 1292 until 1527 is quite a long time and it was significant in the history of Indonesia. An indication of the legacy of the Dutch is that almost nobody in Indonesia speaks a word of the language, yet pancasila is the state philosophy.
To look at the map ET is just like a bite taken out of Indonesia, and having spent $5 billion on it Australia still has to chew it
Posted by citizen, Friday, 16 June 2006 6:33:38 PM
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The article by Tim Anderson "Achievements of a failed state" in todays OLO provides some intelligent insights which may well answer some of the critics in this post.
Posted by maracas, Friday, 16 June 2006 8:17:34 PM
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Likewise, much of Europe was united under the Caesars. It was united under Charlemagne. It was united under Napoleon. It was united under Hitler. Does this give Europe a long heritage as a nation?

I am not denying the existence of previous empires. I am saying that when the Dutch arrived they did not simply conquer an existing kingdom. They took over a collection of separate states over a period of time, united them as the Dutch East Indies and created the borders of what is today Indonesia.

Like you, citizen, I have studied Indonesian history. In particular, I studied the techniques used by Sukarno in developing and capitalising on nationalistic sentiment. I am not unfamiliar with the Majapahit kingdom. I admit that I am not an expert, but I do know enough to be confident in what I have said here.
Posted by Otokonoko, Friday, 16 June 2006 11:09:09 PM
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Hello Australians! Pardon my late reply due to an extended holiday.

@Lev:

How bizarre a foreigner like you try to tell us to abandon our superior form of government for an irrelevant foreign system like federalism. Indonesia was a federal state before between 1949-1950. However, this federalism ran against the will of the people as the states turned-out to be puppets of the Dutch. Consequently, populations of each federal state rose-up and forced the disbandment of these states. After the virtual self-destruction of the states, there was no other option but to create a unitary state in accordance to the will of the people. It is clear, Indonesian people has rejected federalism as a failed system.

This was a brilliant move as federal states are always more prone to bloody civil war and catastrophic bloodshed like in Yugoslavia, Nigeria, and in former Soviet Union since federalism promoted chauvinism, ethnic-hatred and exclusiveness.

Indeed the Falintil "guerillas" were just a joke who never posed any threat on Indonesia, they were handled by our army with ease. East Timorese independence has nothing to do with them, but was an exclusive gift from President Habibie who was in a benevolent mood back in 1999. Had Indonesia's president been someone else, or had Habibie been in a different mood, it is guaranteed East Timor will still be a part of Indonesia today.

And yes, GAM surrendered all its weaponry and gave up its separatism in exchange for amnesty. The violent GAM realised if they do not surrender, they'll eventually die in the hands of our military, just like the fate of its "commander" Abdullah Syafei and its "chief-of-staff" Ishak Daud. GAM used tsunami as a face-saving moment to accept Indonesian govt's benevolent offer of amnesty born out of our pity of the tsunami. Not being eager to die, GAM rebels knew to give up when their situation is hopeless. The 2005 Helsinki peace deal is a surrender of GAM by all stretch of imagination.

So now, Indonesia face no problem from separatism. Deal with it.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Sunday, 18 June 2006 11:59:16 PM
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@last word:

Indonesians can never ignore the genocide committed by whites on Aborigines in Australia. We consider whites as a brutal colonial power with absolutely no legitimate reason to be in Australia. You are deluding yourself if you consider the white theft of Aboriginal land was fair and legitimate process. Australia should be returned to Aborigines now. It will be wonderful thing if you and other whites would reflect on these matters.

@citizen:

As I said, had our president in 1999 been not Habibie, or had Habibie been in a different mood, East Timor will still be a part of Indonesia today. East Timorese "independence" was 100% a gift of Habibie. It is still a mystery why Habibie suddenly gave independence to East Timor, as such a move was totally unnecessary at that time. The best guess is Habibie want to relieve Indonesia out of its obligations to pay huge subsidies to support development in East Timor province, a place he constantly called "a worthless piece of real estate that contributed nothing for Indonesia".

That is the problem about having presidents not elected by the people: they can be emotionally unstable people who make decisions based on mood swings like Habibie with the East Timor thingy. Thankfully, Indonesian people now directly elect their president, a process that would screen-out emotionally unstable candidates. The weird and unnecessary East Timor referendum episode won't happen again in the future, thanks to our maturing democracy.

You made very good point: Indonesia has completely forgotten the Dutch language, while East Timor pathetically made Portuguese the official language as that half-island's sole "unfiying factor" while in reality less than 5% of East Timorese can speak Portuguese. Indonesia has always consistently work-hard to cleanse ourselves from all vestige of Dutch influence since our independence.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Monday, 19 June 2006 12:13:23 AM
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@proud

Unitary systems of government can only work in states where there is a single culture. You do not have this in Indonesia and attempts to enforce it are evident in the hundreds of thousands of people that have been killed by various Indonesian governments. You should pay attention to the comments of many of your fellow citizens in this discussion.

Whilst it indeed may be true that the Dutch colonialists attempted to "divide and conquer" the federal state of Indonesia in 1959-1960, one must have the intellectual honesty to acknowledge that this was the first two years of independence when there still was significant political maneuverings by the Dutch to re-assert their authority.

Perhaps you should take into consider the following;
http://208.39.184.185/news/view_speeches_detail.cfm?news_index=109

The most important contribution is recognising that federation is not an end in itself, but a means to enhance local democracy and regional autonomy. This could be achieved in a unitary state; but it's going to be a lot harder given the diversity of the region.

Indeed, the Helsinki Memorandum of Understanding displays exactly the advantages of a federal system. You may actually wish to read it sometime; Acheh now has political, legal, and financial independence and even significant control over the police force - and as such, the need for independence has ended.

http://www.aceh-mm.org/download/english/Helsinki%20MoU.pdf

Far from a surrender for GAM it was actually in so many ways a victory. The MoU shows the way forward for governance in the Malay archipelago; regional autonomy within a national government. Let's hope it's adopted elsewhere.

I note that you have carefully avoided my previous question;

'All of which does raise an interesting question; would you be prepared to see independence or autonomy referendums conducted in said regions and for that matter, Bali?

And if not, would you still be "proud" of Indonesia if it returned to being a military dictatorship, or if it gave up any pretense of secularism, or if it engaged in state-sponsored terrorism?'

Your lack of response is perhaps the most clear answer in itself.
Posted by Lev, Monday, 19 June 2006 9:59:46 AM
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@Lev:

LOL, peddling your "federalism" in this forum is useless. Indonesian people has always rejected inferior federal system and rose-up to demolish it the last time an outsider try to force that backward system upon us. Today, no Indonesian want to overthrow our superior unitary state system and implement federalism. What a foreigner, especially some Australian, think about it doesn't matter for us. Our superior system is fine as it is, it works without serious problem. Deal with it.

"Unitary systems of government can only work in states where there is a single culture."

By contrast, federal system can only work in monoculture states. In indigenously multicultural states, federalism proved disastrous as it promotes ethnic-chauvinism and intercine hatred. Look at the federal states of Yugoslavia, USSR, or Nigeria where tens of thousands died annually in inter-ethnic violence. Federal systems that don't cause too much bloodshed was in monocultural countries like neo-European states of USA and Australia (dominated by Anglo-Saxons), Brazil (dominated by Portuguese), or Germany. Even there, the US federal system came close to collapse during the very bloody American Civil War while you said yourself federalism failed in Australia. It is clear federalism is a failed and inferior system. We Indonesians know this very well, hence our brilliant move to destroy federalism back in 1950.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Tuesday, 20 June 2006 12:44:26 AM
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LOL, the GAM's sole aim was independence: they failed. Aceh has no financial nor political independence, they have legal autonomy to implement Islamic sharia law (with appeals available to Indonesian Supreme Court), but this was given by central govt in 2001 and has nothing to do with MoU. GAM does not represent Aceh, as 25% of the population are non-Acehnese whose hobby was to behead GAM rebels and who are now demanding creation of new province separate from Aceh. Most ethnic-Acehnese people themselves are loyal Indonesians; our current ambassador to Australia who are actively fighting against Papuan separatism is an Acehnese. The owner of Indonesian newspaper who bash Australia the most over the Papuan visa issue is an Acehnese.

Far from any "victory", MoU was a total defeat for GAM. It is only due to benevolent Indonesian amnesty, the armed rebels were granted extension on their lives instead of being shot dead like their "commander" Syafei. There is a lesson from the MoU: armed rebellion against Indonesia is useless.

As I said, Indonesian people consider our borders as final and non-negotiable. Thanks to our democracy, it is there will never be any tolerance for Hitlerite separatism in the future in accordance with will of the Indonesian people. The most fervent defender of Indonesian unity has always been the nationalist PDI-P party whose most powerful base is in the extremely nationalistic Bali. Balinese people are the original Indonesians, our first president Sukarno is half-Balinese. The Balinese people will never tolarate separatism, Balinese soldiers always distinguished themselves in counter-insurgency campaigns in East Timor. It was soldiers from Bali who ambushed and killed the commander of GAM rebels along with his wife and his entire retinue of "bodyguards".
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Tuesday, 20 June 2006 1:05:28 AM
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Proud to be Javanese says:

“Balinese people are the original Indonesians, our first president Sukarno is half-Balinese. The Balinese people will never tolarate separatism,”

Dream-on!

There use to be a country called Yugoslavia
Its Leader (& chief advocate ) Tito was of Croatian extraction.
Today Croatia is an independent state.

There used to be a country called the USSR
One of Its leaders Stalin was of Georgian extraction
Today Georgia is an independent state.

VIVA INDEPENDENT EAST TIMOR
VIVA FRETILIN
VIVA MAU-BERE PEOPLE
VIVA 28th NOVEMBER
VIVA DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF EAST TIMO
Posted by Horus, Tuesday, 20 June 2006 6:20:33 AM
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@proud

It must be embarrassing for you that a "foreigner" seems to be more aware of Indonesian history and politics than yourself. Especially considering how partisan your malformed opinions are.

With regards to federalism it is quite clear you have missed the point. Once again, federalism is merely a means to an end. The end itself is greater local autonomy and democracy. Instead of opposing federalism per se, perhaps you should be explicit about your politics and state that you oppose local autonomy and democracy.

In contrast to your claims I would suggest that the continuation of federal systems in Brazil, Germany, Australia and even the United States are unnecessary and hold back further development of said nations. They served their purpose once; but no more.

As a partisan and rigid thinker, you appear unable to consider the possibility that political science considers unitary states superior in some circumstances and federal states superior in others.

In the diverse cultures of the Malay archipelago a federal system is a better system to ensure human rights which much have priority over the enforced unity of any state. Surely the relative success (stable democracy, GDP PPP 300% higher) of the Malaysian federation is an obvious hint.

Your claims that Acheh has no financial or political independence is clear proof that you haven't read the MoU. As any other reader can discern the MoU counters your point of view in 1.1.2 (a), 1.3.1 - 1.3.9 (inclusive), and 1.4.2.

Your example of Sukarno is hilariously irrelevant.
Posted by Lev, Tuesday, 20 June 2006 9:50:37 AM
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@Lev:

LOL, it is hilarious you keep peddling your "federalism" here. Save your breath, online peddling is always useless.

Indonesian people are the one who decide what system of govt we want. We are great country with heroic history, we've always choose our own path since independence, we value foreigners' "opinion" like toilet-paper. Indonesian people has always rejected inferior federalism in favour of our superior system of unitary state. We Indonesians know by choosing unitary state, we are defending the primacy of human rights by preventing Yugoslavia-like civil wars. Only unitary state promoted real autonomy and pure democracy, unlike the divisive secterianism promoted by federalism. Your inferior "federalism" ran against the will of the people, hence federalism continue being rejected while our superior unitary state will continue for eternity.

Your reference to Malaysia hilariously shows your total ignorance, as Malaysia is not a democracy nor do they have real autonomy, but it is a virtual one-party state under UMNO where dissenters are jailed without trial.
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/05/15/malaysia.mahathir/index.html

Aceh has no financial nor political independence as stated by the MoU, which basically just re-stated regional autonomy given by central govt back in 2001. In other words, MoU is basically just a document for the surrender of GAM.

@Horus:

Thanks for outlining examples of bloody failures of the bankrupt federal system in Yugoslavia and USSR. I hope these examples became food for thought for Lev.

Indeed Balinese people will never tolerate separatism. Their party PDI-P strongly lobbied against MoU with GAM as they prefer to continue the fun of shooting rebels as ordered by our half-Balinese president Megawati. Balinese soldiers always enjoyed eating the hearts of dead Falintil guerillas and keeping their ears as souvenirs. Just look at the corpse of GAM "commander" Abdullah Syafei after Balinese soldiers were done with him:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g110/rpurnomo/syafie_dies.jpg

BTW shouting online is useless, mate. East Timor will always be a failed state, currently it is rapidly losing its "independence" and is well on its way into becoming an Australian colony. Poor East Timor, from a Portuguese colony to Indonesian province back to Australian colony. Quite pathetic indeed.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jun2006/etim-j20.shtml
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Wednesday, 21 June 2006 2:24:42 PM
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