PTBI,

I assume that you are an ordinary indonesian citizen, and not a stooge for the Indonesian government.

If so, I am pleased that you are contributing to this discussion for it is good to get a feel for the mindset of ordinary indonesians.

reading what you have to say makes it very clear that the problems which exist between australia and Indonesia are almost irreconsilable.

You should understand that most australians cannot ignore or accept the mass murder commited by Indonesia in E Timor or what amounts to genocide in West Papua.

In the case of West Papua, Indonesia is a brutal illegitimate colonial power with absolutely no legitimate reason to be there.

You are deluding yourself if you think the "act of free choice" was a legitimate and valid process. West Papua deserved its independence then and deserves it now.

It would be a wonderful thing if you and your fellow indonesians would carefully reflect on these matters.

@ Otokonoko

Indonesia was not "an artificial construct born out of Dutch vanity", Nusantara Indonesia had existed for centuries before the Dutch arrived in the form of the Majapahit Kingdom which included Timor. You just have to look at a map and see that to the north, east and west of Timor all is Indonesia and Timor's "seperatness" is only derived from catholicism.
@PTBI
East Timor should have been easily reabsorbed back into Indonesia, as Macau was into China and Goa into India, so why did the Indonesian government allow the church there to manipulate the situation for so long that the present situation came about? Fretelin was virtually wiped out within months, so what do you think went wrong?

@citizen

I can only assume your question to proud is rhetorical.

I also assume you mean Falintil rather than Fretilin.

At the time of invasion Falintil had 2,500 troops plus another 15,000 or so supporters that had some military training. Rather than being "virtually wiped out within months", they conducted an extremely successful military campaign for several years until the British provider Harrier jets and US OV-10-Bronco's made the military option less tenanable.

After Xanana took over Falintil in 1981 the strategy turned to cladestine activities, with cease-fire talks being held in 1983 between Xanana and the Indonesian military. Attempts to destroy Falintil were quite unsuccessful to say the least.

see: http://www.uc.pt/timor/resist.html for a rather amazing image!

and

http://www.mega.nu/ampp/nunestimor.html for a brief history of the resistance.

Whilst Falnitil casulties were extremely low, especially in proportion to the casulties inflicted, the civilian population was heavily targetted instead.

Even in 1997 Indonesians were joining;
see http://www.serve.com/inside/edit71/Nasir.htm

For a reasonably good potted history the following provides some basic facts;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1504243.stm

last word,
like australian there are different opinions in Indonesia. Well, PTBI reflects the view of some indonesian, but not all indonesian. Actually most Indonesian are not well informed about separatists movement in Aceh, Papua, or East Timor, including their campaign at foreign countries.

But I'm sure every Indonesian always disagree with the militaric way Suharto's regime govern Aceh, Timor, and Papua. It has been has for long become "public issues", and in those issues Indonesian goverment got opposition from indonesian intellectuals such as Dr.Sri Bintang, Dr.Amin Rais and many others as well as from several political parties.

Contrary to australians view, that is only result from media propagandas, Mr Morris made valid points that Indonesia also did many things good to the provinces like health and education and other infrastructures.

And along with present reformation, all provinces in indo pose greater autonomy. Aceh and Papua already got "special autonomy" since 2001, although the implementations are still not yet as perfect as what had been expected. As the present results, autonomies raised many small corruptors in provinces, that creates overnumbered job for polices and law officers.

Like one's opinion before, the future of Indo will be a federation. Only because of people sensitivity, indonesian leaders support the concept of provincial autonomy "otonomi daerah", that is in essence no different with federation concept, and also a sudden change to federal goverment may bring no good to Indonesia.

cheer

Scholars tend to agree that, while the Majapahit empire dominated the Indonesian archipelago, it was by no means a united and peaceful empire. It fell apart when other kingdoms grew more powerful - kingdoms that did not want to be part of the empire.

I appreciate that the kingdom was used as a symbol of Indonesian unity - much as the memory of the Roman Empire was invoked by Mussolini and the memory of Great Zimbabwe was invoked by Mugabe and other Zimbabwean nationalists. Most nations look to the past for evidence of their legitimacy.

That's not to say that Indonesia is not a legitimate nation. Just that, in its current form, it was unified by the Dutch and not by a pre-existing empire.

@citizen

I was amazed when I was first told many years ago that attempts were made to claim that Indonesia's heritage dates back to the Hindu Majapahit kingdom and even more amazed to hear that this was supposed to include Timor Leste.

Despite my aesthetic fondness for the culture, the dry facts are the Majapahit kingdom arose in the very late 13th century. In the middle of the 14th century it was significant for a generation and then fell into decline and was completely dissolved by 1527. It really wasn't that significant in the history of the world.

At its height it consisted of much of Java and Sumatra, Bali and a thin strip to Malacca. One poem from the period, the Nagarakertagama, quotes a long list of states, from which gifts were given. This includes the island "East", which as the explorer Tomé Pires pointed out in the 16 century, includes every and any island east of Java. Likewise Meilink-Roelofsz mentions that in about 1415 the power of Majapahit included Malaca as a vassal sate. But he excludes the islands of Timor and Flores.

You may wish to confirm this through sources such as Slametmujhana's "A Story of Majapahit" (Singapore University Press Pt Ltd, 1976), Lee E. Williams, in is book -"Southeast Asia, a History" Oxford University Press, 1976, and M.C. Ricklefs' "A History of Modern Indonesia Since C. 1200" (Stanford University Press, 2002)

As for the claim 'You just have to look at a map and see that to the north, east and west of Timor all is Indonesia and Timor's "seperatness" is only derived from catholicism', I humbly suggest to you that perhaps you are forgetting that Flores is overwhelmingly Catholic (north west) as well along with a not insignificant number of Christians in Wetar (north) and of couse, the majority of the population in Tanimbar Islands (east).

So really you're talking about West Timor, right? No wrong again. West Timor's main religions are Catholic (56%), Protestant (35%) and Islam (8%).

So where were you talking about, if not north, west or east of Timor Leste?