Maybe your respected Aboriginal elders could apply to the various Commissioners of ASIC and other Aboriginal organisations that have literally thrown hundreds of thousands and even millions of dollars away on cronyism, shonky deals, mismanagement, gambling, paying personal bills with CDEP money etc etc.

I worked out once that we could pay every Aboriginal man, woman and child in Australia $100,000 each as a quit claim and we would break even within 10 years by eliminating all indigenous State and Federal programs.

Aboriginal families would have more than enough money to establish themselves in a style that relatively few Australians can even now aspire to. If they chose to remain in rural and remote areas then, like the white farmers and others who also live in those regions, they would either have to accept a lower level of healthcare or invest their funds to buy their own future services.

And, of course, if any of them still believe that people such as those mentioned in the first paragraph are at all trustworthy, why they could give them their money to invest and manage.

Kevin

What a pathetic whinge, many boomer's don't have super, their own home or money.

Whats indigenous, my families been here nearly 200 years, transported against their will, so whats that make me. I'm Tasmanian with some aboriginal heritage, but I'm me first, thats the difference. If you rely on your genetics to get you through life, I pity you. There's few boomer's I know who inherited anything from their families, they struggled, before decent working conditions, pay and welfare support.

As Kevin says, aboriginals are a product of their refusal to take responsibility for their lives. When will these people stand up for themselves and take control, as many aboriginal descendants do and enjoy life. Whinge and moan all you like, but this is the 21st century and if you don't get on the train with everyone else, you'll get run over.

Sure it took a long time to bring aboriginals into society and not treat them as misfits, primitive and unintelligent. But it was the people of this country who forced the government to recognise and give equality to descendants of those here before Europeans. We're not responsible for their plight in this day, its aboriginal leaders who are to blame. Those aboriginals that've grown fat on money destined to promote good living standards for their people, are to blame, not the Australian people. Where's their example and assistance, why aren't they out there telling their people to grow up. Nah their at home with their fat guts and money in their pockets

Stephen, you've done well on your own initiative. Whats different between the irresponsible Europeans who constantly cry for more welfare handouts, yet refuse to take responsibly for their lives and the aboriginals who do the same by abusing their bodies and their children. Surely thousands of years of good environmental living along with nutritional knowledge of today, would be a bonus towards good living standards. Sadly if you continue to live in the past, thats where you end up.

A big dose of sterio typing mixed with sour grapes and a touch of green eye.
Most of us are a blend of all those things mentioned in the article, anyone who has worked hard and saved all their lives are entitled to everything they have.
To sit and complain that life has passed you by is to acknowledge the fact that you didn't put in anything because it was too hard to be bothered.
Many of the older generations had it hard too,the great depression then the war made sure of that but most simply got on with it.
Very few people in this life are born lucky, most have to strive to make their luck.

Government policies have stacked the deck against Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders.

Have you not heard of the oppression of Australia's Indigenous peoples, how they were removed (alive or dead) from their land, their children taken to turn them into a not white but not Aboriginal servant class. Or haven't you heard of the policy to breed out the colour and the policies that outlawed culture, language and kinship.

Tell me have you heard of the wages witheld from Indigenous people and siphoned off by governments to pay for public infrastructure like hospitals in capital cities.

These wages were also used to pay for Indigenous people's incarceration on so called missions. So while non-Indigenous folk did it tough through things like the deprecion, Indigenous people were not citizens, had no vote and no rights even over where they lived, who they married and so forth.

If you haven't heard of these events, why not? They are a matter of public record.

Finally if the dept of defence, or the AWB were black organisations they would have been closed down.

aka, the "Aboriginal Industry" has played that old record so often , it is worn out. Believe me, many white people had it hard too but a good remedy is getting off one's backside and taking some responsibility for one's life. The best place to start is to make sure every child ,black and white,has an education and is taught the elements of responsibility. Get rid of the 'victim' mentality, the world is neither interested nor impressed. This is the best country in the world to have a go! Sitting and moaning is no place to begin.
The world will simply leave you behind if you make no effort.And that is the lesson all children must learn.

Maybe Stephen Hagan didn't use enough evidence to make his case compelling enough to kevin, the alchemist, or mickijo - although as Aka points out, he shouldn't really have to as it is all public record.

While human resilience to enormous calamity is remarkable, I believe that it is much more difficult to resist, recover from, or account for, the relentless “small catastrophes”, both historical and contemporary, that occur every day, every week, every year, and relentlessly impinge on indigenous attitudes and behaviours. Underpinning the effects of a history of violence, neglect, and dislocation, are the day-to-day realities of embedded racism and marginalisation that we in the wider community don’t notice or experience – or if we see it, we don’t believe that we participate in it personally, or as a community, or as a nation.

True, many non-indigenous people suffer adversity - but in Australia, nobody has or had the relentlessness of adversity that is the indigenous experience of the last two centuries.

And I will not deny the inequities that have been visited upon indigenous people by some of their own, but this demonstrates as much about problems with our systemic "money will fix it all" approach to very human conditions as it does about behaviours that range from ignorant to criminal (hey, indigenous people are human too - as Aka says, if we use the same yardstick, defence and AWB would be closed down - as would many other agencies, none of them having the "poor excuse" of systemic generational deprivation as justification (note that I believe that accountability is essential - but we need to be clear at the start what is expected, and how it will be measured, then stick to our rules. We have not done that with most indigenous programmes, initiatives, or whatever the latest term is).

I am not an indigenous person, or a knee-jerk bleeding heart. I grew up in central western NSW, not far from where a convict ancestor settled in the 1830s. I now work with indigenous and non-indigenous families in southwestern Western Australia.

Stephen bro, you set the net and caught some biguns. Don't know what you intend doing to them. Perhaps good crab pot bait?
Cheers.

I met a white Australian overseas - an apparently intellgent businesswoman - who said her country had the only successful genocide. She seemed proud.
In England after the Enclosures Act forced the majority off the land, 85 per cent of the people in some villages were poor. What could people do but take or 'steal' to fulfil their needs?
Unfortunately this English system was re-employed in the Australian settlement which had a system of anhilation prior to assimilation. So killing off men, women and children or harnessing them to reservations was initially preferable to the system in which you had to deny your self.
When indigenous Australians took what they needed - and even when they didn't - babies were shot or bashed to death, women were tortured and killed. This outperformed what indigenous people did to those who took their food and land and what the English establishment had done to its poor.
Unsurprisingly, some of the happiest immigrants and Australian representatives today are white South Africans who left their country post apartheid.
Self responsibility or determination can only stem from having certain assets like adequate land, food or money. Great holidays can only come from having adequate or more than adequate resources. Indigenous people are not fairly represented in that category or any other.
It is scary to reconsider a history which casts us non-indigenous Australians as hard survivors and brave heroes. To do other than consider the toll on the indigenous people is to spiritually kill them again.
When we fail to acknowledge such a legacy and assess the consequence we are hurting a part of ourselves. If we wish for a fair and just and virtuous society for all - and do we? - we could surely demonstrate for hearings and restorations (which do not take private land) like those taking place by the Governments in Canada and New Zealand. That might lead our Government to truly become post-Colonial.

There are some shocking facts emerging from details about indigenous communities now.
Communities that have been left to live their own brand of culture have failed dreadfully to the detriment of the women and children.
It is obvious that a blind eye has been turned in that direction, the loud screams of the "stolen generation" have ensured that the weak and defenceless have been deserted and shamefully so.
It is time that Aboriginal communities are brought into modern Australia and that all in the community are treated equally and fairly. The cancer that is rotting those communities must be drastically cut out-regardless of whose cultural feelings are hurt.

Abusing women and children are not part of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander culture.

In no way could anyone condone the issues that are making news currently.

In my own area I and others are actively trying to break the silence, but it is the past policies that lead so many Indigenous people to distrust the wider community and therefore the problems festers.

Fear that is justified when the judicial system all too often fails the victims.

When non-Indigenous workers in the process can get off on the hearing the details from the accused (heavy stuff but it does happen)thereby condoning it in some sicko fashion. What is there for the victim/s and their family to trust in?

This fear can be very real as there are so many people waiting to point the finger at Indigenous people.

Just a look at the posts that pop up on topic about Indigenous issues on OLO demonstrates this.

HOw about people working alongside Indigenous people, as equals although with different cultures and norms, instead of relishing in sinking the boot in and painting everyone with the one stereotyping.

I suggest that peadophiles and child abusers should be held accountable, based on their actions not their colour.

This is not a black problem with black causes, it is everyone's problem with multiple causes and to address it, everyone has to commit to fixing it.

Pathetic comments denigrating people on the basis of their race and culture and percieved stereotypes, adds little to the debate and less to encouraging people to speak out.

It merely reinforces a them and us fear.

As long as Aboriginals can go on blaming everyone but themselves for the vile things they do, the women and children will go on being violated and abused.
This is not another Black versus White, this is about communities where fear prevails because no one is protecting the defenceless because of the old worn out "racist" and a culture that belongs to another age has been declared untouchable.
ALL women and ALL children have a right to be safe and no man, black or white, has the right to hurt them.
There are no excuses,the guilty are guilty because they have and they alone have caused this terrible problem. It must be made right.

Mickijo, So tell me,.. besides having lots of opinions about Aboriginal people and communities ..what have you ever done to support these views? Or does walking-the-talk only apply to Aboriginal people in your interesting little world of opinion making?

Rainer, AKA, whilst I agree with most things you say, abusing those your asking for help and support, appears to be defeating the purpose. Many things said by all posters are verifiable on both sides, unless thats accepted, there will be no progress. It doesn't make it right either way.

The fault is on both sides, today indigenous people suffer the same stupidity the rest of the community face, when dealing with bureaucrats, politicians and their vested interests. Living and clinging to the past only keeps you there, it doesn't mean giving up culture or empathies. You can't have cultural laws to live by, yet expect to receive help from another set of laws when yours don't suit you.

The problems is not a clash of culture, but a refusal of those in charge of those cultures to be responsible for their positions instead of abusing them. When the hierarchies take their responsibilities seriously, instead of feathering their own nests and then abusing those that put them there, we may see progress. Not only that, but obtaining the support of the people was the first step to equality and acceptance (the vote), don't you think that again getting their support, is the next step. Running the general public down and accusing them of crimes they have nothing to do with, is irrational and defeatist.

If the truth be known, its the churches that should be held to account. It was the missionaries behind most of the problems faced, their dictatorial attitude, forced cultural change, threats of eternal damnation and suffrage if they didn't give up their culture and follow god. Herded of their lands onto missions, fed disgusting and disease causing foods. Separated because some priest, nun or pastor, couldn't change their natural ways. The department of aboriginal affairs, always acted on mission advice.

Attack those that cause the problems, not those that can help fix them. Thats the insanity of the blame game, its directed towards losing, so always fails.

I guess the point of this article was fairly well-hidden. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it runs along the lines that, because Aboriginal people were kept in enforced poverty until fairly recently, they do not have the opportunity to enjoy the luxuries many of us take for granted?

While I agree that, at least in a legal sense, Aboriginal people are 100% equal to their white counterparts, I understand that this has not always been so. They did not have access to the educational or employment opportunities that my grandparents had access to. As a result, their children - many of whom did enjoy these opportunities - were at a disadvantage as, once they had reached Grade 2 level, they were already better educated than their parents and could not expect the support or assistance from home that my parents enjoyed. This set them back which, in turn, set their kids back.

To put a positive spin on things, each generation is probably marginally better off than the one before it.

Perhaps we can hope that the next generation - today's schoolkids - will go a step further, as will the generation to follow. I guess legal equality is a quick step, but social equality takes a while to catch up.

The alchemist,

to simply blame the churches is simplistic and naive.

Warick Anderson wrote an interesting book, The Cultivation of Whiteness: Science, Health and Racial Destiny in Australia, outlining the progression of policies based on medical science and government policies.

The churches were used to implement these policies.

The missions were, by the way, funded by Indigenous wages that were paid to the govts.

More than one church has appologised for their role in the missions, particularly the previous head of the Catholic church.

Pope John Paul publicly appologised for the role of the Catholic church in the oppression of Indigenous Australians. As has Queen Liz.

Not so old JH.

I suggest to people who want to walk alonside and assist Indigenous people, or even people who comment on Indigenous issues in an ill-informed way to visit the HREOC website. Tom Calma has written some interesting and informative stuff there.

Hope you find knowledge and enlightenment and maybe a little tolerance and wisdom.

Rainier,
Instead of having a go at Mickijo for putting forward his opinion, I for one would be interested in your opinion and suggested remedial action in relation the latest shocking revelations of physical and sexual abuse of women and children in aboriginal communities.

Everyone is quite aware that this abuse is not solely confined to the aboriginal communities, but the incidence in aboriginal communities appears to be extremely high. It has been talked about,on and off, for years and all suggestions are worthy of consideration. Something has to be done now.

I commend Mickijo for giving the issue thought which is far ahead of most. Come on Rainier, let us have your considered opinion.

Aka, I'm aware of the conditions, policies and actions regarding indigenous people during the 1950's. Thats when caring people went to war with the church and government over treatment on missions.

Has popes and queens apologising made any difference, no. Whats your personal experience of those times and changes. Have a look at current missionaries, you'll find the same problems, brow beaten until they hit they grog to relief their minds, or give up and succumb to the onslaught of god.

What happened to the belief systems that took care of this country for thousands of years, the depth of feeling and understanding of how nature works and the ability to work with it. Crushed by god, now we have empty hulks, paraded as good followers of god. others are pitied for their dilemma, some just ignored. But it hasn't helped.

My father, argued strongly with missionaries regarding the effects of their suppression on the people. Most station operators accepted people coming and going. The missionaries, hunting parties to bring them back, amid abuse and threats. Typical example of monotheisms approach to life, lie, conquer, lie again, suppress, lie again and tell them you are helping fix what you caused.

My knowledge is personal experience, not a book, propaganda or hearsay. Most with indigenous blood I know, are to busy getting on with their lives. But we all support those wishing to retain their culture, even against brain-dead elements of their own mob and most of the hierarchy involved in indigenous affairs, from both sides.

This isn't a land of god, but a land of animism and dream time. If you follow that culture, you should be fully supported. If you follow god, let god take care of you, as your told he will. Don't hold your breath waiting though, many have died under that assumption.

Living within this modern society, you have the same rights as everyone else, no more. Take a holiday, go for a walk in the bush. You don't need money for that, may even learn about real life, not just a decadent delusion.

Why is it so hard to expect that Aboriginals have the same rights and the same responsibilities as every other Australian?
Perhaps living in closed communities where the biggest and strongest have all the say has been wrong. I would say that democracy would not stand a chance in such communities.
To have little children subjected to such horrors is to ensure that that stain taints all future generations unless it stopped.
The past is over and done with and the future must hold more for Aboriginal youth . Growing up undisciplined ,untrained and uneducated is never going to advance them and they deserve better than that.
Why does this country need to import foreigners when we have a whole society living in a limbo of neglect and emptiness?

In the interests of equality why not break down all walls of silence? It interests me that these conversations would imply that white Australians have an exemplary society, that there is no beating of women and children and no paedeophilia.
Take a visit to Thailand, the Philipinnes or almost any Pacific Island and you will see white Australian males preying on brown boys and girls.
One white Aussie who was HIV postive was staying at a prominent resort a few years back in Samoa, with the aim of infecting every boy he could. That information came straight to me from his doctor. Or closer to home, take a leisurely night stroll through Kings Cross and see the nice fathers, the dear grandfathers, the loving husbands engaging in behaviour that bears a parallel to some of the worst scenes in Victorian London. Hear them in their comfy country home circles, expressing outrage at paedophiles. Know the hypocracy.
I remember a civil rights action in which the aborigine in a particular area only got access to swim in the pool with white people after naming the councillors and civic servants who had fathered them.
It's easy and lazy to say that problems lie with one culture only. The past does have an influence on the present and while walls must be broken down we need to ensure that there is a good clean wide horizon in the space beyond. All cultures have work to do on abuse issues and we need to start with our own homes and neighbourhoods before throwing stones.

The alchemist,
the past is linked to the future in an Indigenous Australian world-view.

Surely your alledged Aboriginal ancestry has linked you to this spiritual truth.

I have a problem with issues such as this being used to taint all Indigenous people. It is the race based politics that JH and co relish.

If there was a will to act in a realist fashion then the perpetrators would be removed - not the victims.

Why is there an immediate call for children to be removed? What about making their communities safer. What non-Indigenous community of 2500 has no police presence?

Negative stereotyping can only serve to diminish the voice and impact of Indigenous men who are actively working to stamp out such odious behavious towards women and children.

What gives you the right to assume knowledge of my faith affiliations?

In regards to popes and queens, I know of only one pope and one queen that has apologised. Maybe there are other queens that have also apologised but maybe not so publicly - perhaps those ones down at Kings Cross :)

Aka, the past was “linked to the future in an Indigenous Australian world-view.” That past has been subjected to scorn and ridicule by the followers of god, because of that abuse, its not possible to maintain the natural link that existed. The majority, are in spiritual limbo and confused about where they fit.

Of course theres a link to the spiritual past and pain for all that understand it. Now its a personal one, not as tribal as before. I spent a long time finding my spiritual home, working out my association with the land, what it represents, how it breathes and feels, how it talks and guides you in understanding. I spent a long time within monotheism, yet it lacked truth, whilst the animism of our country seemed more reasonable and factual for me.

Your probably right about the kings cross queens. Only ignorant fools would stereotype all koori males in the category of abusers, most are the opposite, all cultures have their abusers. Strength from elders and support for that strength is whats lacking in communities. When you take the basis of existence out of a culture, you destroy it.

Monotheism stripped the indigenous of their culture, and replaced it with a violent lie. To repair the wounds, you have to remove the cause or evolve the culture beyond the cause. As animism is far superior and in harmony with the natural world, with the right approach, it can again be a force for strength and peace within indigenous life and provide a positive example for the rest of society.

That won't happen until we change our political and social systems. Until people take pride in their past and exhibit that past in their present day approach to life, no change will occur and we'll continue get scum bags that fleece the people and the system. To me their traitors and should be ostracised and rejected by all communities, if thats not done, nothing will change. Their not koori's just scum, having dark skin doesn't necessarily mean you have an indigenous heart.

This has been an excellent thread, so far. I find myself agreeing or at least nodding to many of the comments on both sides of the debate. Given that, I want to throw in a grenade (metaphorically, of course).
Mental Illness! Is it my imagination or have the sort of problems/crises that we currently see so graphically in Indigenous Communities been increasing since we decided to “reform” the provision of mental health care towards community based systems.
All very well in theory; but if the community in which the care is vested is already dysfunctional, then what kind of outcomes can you honestly expect.
I don’t have the actual Damn Lies and Statistics before me but I am willing to bet my superannuation that indigenous folk and individuals feature more in all of the indicators for social and individual dysfunction.
What to do?
I don’t know. Perhaps perhaps perhaps etc