Col I think you need a new hat - just dismissing a POV as 'infantile rubbish' reveals your inability towards lateral thinking. If you wish to engage in childish behaviour there are always the anti-choicers. Just because I see things on a broader perspective doesn't mean I am at all childish - quite the opposite.

I am stating a fact; to set up negative gearing is a manipulation of a situation - one could also rent out properties for a profit, however in order to claim off taxes it is necessary to arrange circumstances at a loss. It is a deliberate construct. By comparision, purchasing shares is a straight forward transaction.

Further GST injustices - home repairs: electricians, plumbers etc all charge GST. This has also resulted in increasing black market activity.

Col I am willing to discuss issues with you at an adult level, however you need to realise that not everyone sees the world in the same way as you and this does not mean it is incorrect. I thought you wre capable of discussion I guess I was wrong.

Yabby

I have had over 20 years work experience in the welfare sector, both in unemployment and low income housing.

I can say I have met some very scummy low-lifes. My work often put me at risk. However, fortunately for our society, bludgers really are in the minority. I have no doubt you know some bludgers. They're not going to disappear anytime. Why should honest people be penalised for this minority?

Our bi-annual performance assessments were based upon stats - level of rentals arrears, level of vacancies and so on - straight hard facts. As a result I can state from proffessional experience that the fraudsters are a very small minority. I had to work with these people.

Out of the $80B+ welfare budget the total amount of fraud is less than 10% as I detailed in previous post stating level of tax fraud and welfare fraud.

The welfare budget is traditionally a soft target and government cuts would mean that the most marginalised in our society would receive even less support – not just financially but in all the support services that help bring the community together and keep it functioning

Further cuts would mean emergency services would stagnate, preventative programs such as early intervention strategies will be scrapped. It will be survival of the fittest.

But this shortsighted approach will have rapid economic consequences with an increase in the number of welfare dependent individuals and a loss of capacity in the workforce. In other words, if I hadn't been able to access health services and receive benefits, instead of recovering I would've become even more ill and ultimately homeless.

Life might seem fine if you’re one of the entrepreneurial elite – but pretty grim if you’re not - I have been there.

We must put an emphasis on prevention and early intervention to get maximum value out of our health and welfare dollar.

For all people, Yabby, not just the upper percentile. Seems to me you are happy to accept white collar crime at the expense of low income people.

BTW low income is NO indicator of CLASS.

Try about 91 Billion dollars to date Scout,(and Growing 6 Billion dollars a year)Good dhimmi if you can get it; And out of a population of 20 odd million, if that figure is not damming of Immigration and the political hypothesis of philosophical assumptions, then it would indeed be a far better assumption of an Epistemological premise to educate and train people in the art of self determination instead of self destruction.
But hang on here a minute, who would like to see destruction?
It is one thing to invoke humanities as a defense; it is another to orchestrate the whole existence based upon total dependency on others. In a finite language worthy of biblical Theosophy. “The End of Days” or total collapse of societies." It has been done before", yourself; having part Jewish heritage should know and realize that.
We are progressing in leaps and bounds down that path of self destruction and annihilation. Are we not?

Why am I not surprised that Scout thinks “less than” $8 billion welfare fraud, is not worth pursuing? I seem to remember she held similar positions on paternity fraud and other matters of “moral hazard”.

Yes, why don’t we all look that up – try googling “moral hazard definition”.

Thank you Seeker and All for taking an interest in my posts.

I guess I haven’t made myself very clear. I shall reiterate
The statistics are:

“376 cases from the ATO totalling $42,552,008 in reported cost of fraud; and
• 26,188 cases from Centrelink totalling $41,910,587 in reported cost of fraud

Now please don’t forget that a considerable percentage of the health & welfare budget (which has increased under Howard) consists of middle class welfare AKA Vote Buying.

Middle class welfare includes tasty little morsels such as:

• 30% rebate on Medicare
• First Home buyers allowance – resulted in much fraud (putting homes in differing names) and jacking up properties values, thus squeezing out people it was meant to benefit.
• Baby bonuses
• Family Benefits Part B, which is paid when one parent with small children (usually the mother) has a low income, regardless of how much the other partner earns.

In fact any lump of cash that is ‘doled’ out and not means tested.

This is all a part of the welfare budget that so upsets out many posters.

If I am interpreting these posters correctly then they want to eradicate low income welfare in favour of middle class welfare. What an absurd and twisted piece of socialism is that.

Looks like class warfare from where I’m sitting.

Now I am NOT advocating that we should not route out welfare fraud, indeed we should.

What I question is why is there not the same outcry on white collar crime?
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Off topic: Seeker I agree with you that absconding biological fathers SHOULD be tracked down and made responsible for their children. Even though it is a small percentage, non-biological fathers should not have to pay for children that are not their own unless they wish to.

Tao wrote “.... particularly as they are not actually producing anything which is useful to humankind (entertaining maybe).’

Which equates to suggesting some people produce “nothing of worth”

Re ” what will happen if we all take the “opportunity for equality” you seem to believe exists?”

No one is stopping you or anyone else from taking advantage of every opportunity which falls at your feet, (except your own fears).

I am not “point scoring”, merely playing but I guess, for the blunt and obtuse, the “point” (any point) is never very clear or close.

Scout “I am stating a fact, to set up negative gearing is a manipulation of a situation - one could also rent out properties for a profit”

If you can direct me to a positive geared investment property, tell me, I would rather buy a “money-earner” than a “money-pit”.

Rental Market Reality Scout -

When the purchase cost carries, generally, a 7.5% cost of borrowing and only a 5% rental return, the difference, when added to maintenance costs etc. determines that until the equity value of the investment increases over time, any and every “investment property” purchase will be “negative geared”.

Property rentals are arranged under market conditions, if you can find properties which rent out at 10%+ of there market value, then I suggest you buy them up quick before the rest of the market discovers the opportunity.

If you had ever bothered to analyse what happens to a negative geared investment over time, you would realise “negative geared” properties turn into “positive geared” investments, (after between 3 to 10 years), simply because of the increase in rental revenue (moving with an increasing market value) relative to a comparatively fixed debt cost.

As for GST – the “black economy” has been around since income tax was invented. There have always been those who would seek to evade tax and risk the consequences, regardless of the method of tax. As for “home repairs: electricians, plumbers” and before GST there was Sales Tax, levied generally, at a far higher rate on the products and materials used