Gentlemen..gentlemen... (PK and Pericles)

Pericles. A humanist revival is called for, but it is linked to 'Christian/liberal/humanist' ideas, so I think my approach is entirely valid.

A call is made for something, and I am simply scrutinizing the thing being called for from a theological/philosophical perspective.

PK.. I'd prefer to be annoying than boring :) at least when my words 'annoy' someone it means they have considered them to a degree.

Urging me not to 'preach' as you lads put it, is indeed a tad fascist, "Now men, you can have any view BUT the Christian one"....duh

Pericles.. gotta love that little 'dammit now you've got me doing it' comment :) *grin*

I rejoice that you have a knowledge of the parable of the soils (often called the 'sower').. perhaps I can use that to 'point the bone' at PK and suggest that he is the 'path' where the seed dropped and the birds came quickly and took them away, so the seed came to nothing.

I would love to see a return to humanistic values, in the sense that they are basically Christian (apart from any which promote sexual deviance) in substance, if not in foundation.

But perhaps it is better that ideas have freedom to take their toll on society, so we can actually see just how wretched we will become without the moral and spiritual anchor that Christ provides.

What most don't realize is that today we are morally about at the point where society was just prior to the great evangelical awakenings. We don't have the 'new' morality, we just have the old immorality recycled. In between then and now, we had the refreshment of the Spirit in revival, but now, we have strayed, become lost, blind and naked.

We think we are much, but we are not. The church at Laodicea said

"I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing."

Jesus spoke to them : "But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked" Rev 3:17

B.D.
Your Revelation quote is a statement to the head of the church, it is they, not the heathen, that the author claims is "pitiful, poor, blind and naked". I believe the same prophetic critique could be made of the modern church, including the intelectual and spiritual shallowness of the christian perspectives put on this forum and other places.

Your avoidance of the hard issues, especially with bible quotes that contradict you such as polygamy (exodus 21) and virgin birth (Mathew 1) that I have challenged you on in other threads is not a witness to your faith but to the gaping holes in your human constructed ideology.

So a bible focused ideology that refuses to study the bible has no place in serious discussion. It is like a salesperson who refuses to answer questions about the fine print in the hope that the smootheness of their sales pitch will secure a sale.

So back to the subject, looking at reality through ideological blinkers, be it Christianity, Marxism, Feminism or anything else stifles intelectual and spiritual exploration. That is why our universities (and churches) churn out unchallenging conformists.

Jesus said the truth will set you free.

Those interested in more than polemic against postmodernism may be interested in this article by Kevin Hart in Zadoc Perspectives.

http://www.zadok.org.au/perspectives/issue60/articles/hart/hart6001.shtml

The article on Christian deconstructionism is interseting in that it opens doors but then quickly shuts them again.
By broadening notions of deconstructionism outside of traditional metaphysics is a good start, to truly understand, as best as we can from our own perspective, the context of biblical writers (or any text) and distinguish that from our own contemporay expectations (or constructions) of the text.

However it is not till the conclusion that the word "faith" comes in with no explanation of it's place in this deconstructionism. What is this faith? does it mean that we can believe in the virgin birth despite materialist logic to the contrary? Does it mean that we can embrace our own expectations of the texts even if we discover the context of their writing gives a meaning very different to our expectations?.

Christians talk about faith all the time but what does it mean?

Non-monotheist religions such as Budhism, Hinduism and Aboriginal religions talk of consciousness shifts, of enlightenment. There is no faith here but the deliberate rejection of perceptions of reality. In the vacuum that is left after the worldly clutter has been got rid of is the eternal, this is the space where we find "God" whatever that might be.

Non Christian meditation techniques are all designed to remove the clutter of life to make room for the eternal. However Christians (and Muslims and Jews) pray for specific things to a specific person and, therefore, maintain a strong attatchment to preconceived expectations (clutter) in their spiritual endeavours.

To truly have faith, we must abandon all those ideologies, including religion, and be prepared to look at the eternal without trying to define it in materialist or metaphysical constructs.

Acedemic Christians trying to keep up with modern deconstructionism need to go all the way instead of accepting deconstructionism as something relevent to just their acedemic tradition. I f they cannot apply it to their own sacred cows then they are missing the point alltogether.

Dear your majesty King Kanute

well said.. I'm glad you either took the trouble to examine the context of the revelation quote, or were already familiar with it.

I totally agree. The words of our Lord WERE directed at 'a' particular church. The point is, they have relevance to ANY body of people who 'think' they have it all, but don't. This applies as much to the secular lot as the churchy. There is little quite as 'Laodicean' as Feminazis and Marxists.

You suggest I avoid the hard issues ? Quite the converse, I suggest the real remedy instead of wandering around among the symptoms.

I don't need to engage with you on the issue of Polygamy, as it is quite apparent that it was a fact of Old testament life, but not of New testament teaching. There is a difference. Polygamy would probably be a fact of life for US also if we were perenially slaughtering each other village to village.

Your point about both the shallowness of some OLO Christian perspectives and the Laodicean condition of some of elements of the established church is quite valid, but heed the 'speck and beam' teaching please.(as must we all)

I maintain, that we will do best by a revival of heart and mind in Christ, rather than a revival of 'humanism' per se.
Lets subject the idea of a humanistic revival (without Christian foundations) to some scrutiny:

Choose a 'value' which u feel is currently being or already "lost" which you would restore ?

Then ask this question "If I'm asked by some young person who doesn't want to follow that value, 'Why should I'? -what will I say to him/her in order to give a firm unquestionable reason for him/her to follow it ?

If the only response u can come up with is 'because'.....then I rest my case.

BD,

"Choose a 'value' which u feel is currently being or already "lost" which you would restore ?

Then ask this question "If I'm asked by some young person who doesn't want to follow that value, 'Why should I'? -what will I say to him/her in order to give a firm unquestionable reason for him/her to follow it ?"

If the only response u can come up with is 'because my imaginary friend says so'.......then you have no real reason to attempt to compel that young person to follow that value.

It is then time to lead by example, live a life of such inspiration and integrity that others will seek to emulate it. I know that is a lot more difficult than uttering threats of eternal damnation but then that does not work so well nowdays either. Don't bother resting your case, it is time to conceed it and move on.

R0bert