The problem with the 97% offer of a Palestinian state was the three percent that would still be controlled by Israel: the settlements deep in the West Bank and the roads to and from them. The idea of a contiguous Palestinian state was nonsense. Israeli officials even said that bridges and tunnels could be built to link the various parts of the state of Palestine where Israeli roads isolated them.

But that was the entire idea of the settlement program: small strips of Israel cutting into Palestine, and where there was some fertile land, the Israeli settlers grabbed it as soon as they could.

I’ve personally heard Israelis say that Palestine, whilst independent, shouldn’t have some institutions normally part of an independent state, such as an defence force with aircraft and military vehicles. These Israelis even went so far as to say that Palestinian police should only be allowed to have pistols, and if they needed something heavier in dealing with a security situation then the Palestinians should call on the IDF for assistance. That doesn’t sound like independence to me.

The separation of the West Bank and Gaza would also have been problematic. Some of us remember that a similar arrangement was tried, and failed, with Pakistan.

Regarding the Peel Commission, how would Poland have felt if the British and French had approached them in 1939 and said that Germany only wanted 15% of Polish territory, and that they didn’t want to go to war for that? 15% would have simply been appeasement, and we all know what happened to Czechoslovakia.

Jews had been offered other places also, places with less population. Palestine wasn’t ‘a land without a people waiting for a people without land’.

By the way, Boaz David is a classic example of fanaticism. He has not realised that Christ changed the Jews from being God’s only people. All those who accept Christ are God’s people, the Jews have been bypassed. Jerusalem is really just an historic curiosity when it comes to salvation.

Ted writes, "US federal law prohibits torture as defined by the UN Convention on the subject".

It certainly does, but according to the White House (with acknowledgements to Brad DeLong):

Simulated drowning is not torture. Mock burial is not torture. Stripping a detainee naked, and chaining him to the floor of a fifty-degree-Fahrenheit cell, and pouring cold water on him for extended periods is not torture. Prisoners being "forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours" is not torture. Threatening detainees with military dogs is not torture. Prolonged sleep deprivation is not torture. Prolonged isolation is not torture. Repeating these techniques again and again, and combining them in creative ways, is not torture.

But the fact that US law prohibits torture is actually irrelevant.

From http://www.newsday.com/news/columnists/ny-opcoc204558361dec20,0,5383369,print.column?coll=ny-news-columnists

QUOTE
In asking the super-secret National Security Agency to monitor - without any court oversight whatsoever - the international phone calls and e-mails of hundreds of Americans, President George W Bush has gone far beyond what even the Patriot Act allows...

This is a president who believes no law applies to him.

He long ago violated a 1971 statute that bars the detention of U.S. citizens "except pursuant to an Act of Congress." In his "war on terror," Bush has nonetheless thrown American citizens into the clink and asserted he has the right to hold them there indefinitely, without charge and without showing any evidence against them...

The Geneva Conventions have been tossed aside like wastepaper. They are replaced by gross violations of basic human rights at U.S. detention facilities, secret and semi-secret, around the world...

This president simply disregards the Constitution, save for the one clause he invokes to justify his violation of so many others: He is, he says, commander-in-chief. This power trumps all.
END QUOTE

if boaz is anything, he's a clasic example of a jihadist.

"Well, Goldstein did, what the Israeli government should have done, and should still do. Remove absolutely any trace of Islamic presence in Israel and this includes the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aksah mosque.

Extreme ? 'Radical' ? 'fundamentalist' ?

Considering the quote in my last post from the Hamas charter, I think 'no reasonable alternative'."

so if i have got this right, he's arguing that israel's policy should be moddled on the hamas charter. isnt that the goldstein method?

so one one side we have the total removal of jewish presense in israel by violent means and on the other we have total removal of muslim presence by violent means.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. stop it your killing me (or someone anyway)

lapkin has of course argued that goldstien is not reveared in israel,and thats possible true, dependant on the phrase 'not reveared by the majority', which is a very differnent kind of argument.

Ted , you ignored my challenge to invoke divine intervention, you say it is a stupid idea, I proved my point. you base your argument on the great untruth" believing your God Promised you the land of Israel, you use Gods name to promote greed and hatred, if your beliefs are so strong, why not take up my challenge , you said I blamed the Jews for millions of deaths , you should read my post again because Jewish deaths were included and members of other religions. all were victims of the "great untruth"

Numbat, unlike you I dont own a God I can use to to steal land from Palestinians, the God I believe in created the Universe, if all the people in the middle east were to loose their memory over night they would wake up in the morning not knowing which side of the fence they belonged, they would all have their memory reprogrammed by their political/religious leaders, so they could kill each other again, had God created humans to kill . we would have claws and fangs, loving your neighbour makes God Happy. your posts are full of hatred of Muslims thats to be expected because you support the destruction of the Holy Mosque, Muslims and Jews believe in the same God , if those none/Jewish slaves who started the New religion of Islam had been allowed to take part in religious celebrations you may now be all one people, mangotree

Still waiting for an answer to my questions, Ted.

HAMLET

Thanx for the critique. I don't see that Romans 9-11 is invalid. Paul clearly speaks of the "Jews" meaning biological (primarily) and Godfearers (converts) being 're-grafted in'. Admittedly, he is speaking more spiritually than nationalistically, granted. But definitely refers to their status as elected by God.

I guess what I'm alluding to, is the overwhelming sense of OT prophecy which strongly suggests a re-establishment of the Nation, and of the Temple. The defiling of the holy place, Anti Christ etc We can argue the toss on that, but its where I stand.

Please bear in mind, I speak on 2 levels. 1/ as a 'Christian' which is where I might refer to prophecy, and Israels place in current events. 2/ As an observer of human affairs. Where I look at the charter of Hamas, see it as an absolute threat to life and limb in Israel, a declaration of total war in words TO THAT effect, and realize that the only rational response to a self declared enemy of this type is a winnable war to decide the matter once and for all and remove the problem.

INEB you raise a very important point. You in fact underlined the problem by stating Hamas goals. If I may venture a request. Given this 'absolute,uncompromising, Doctrinal and final' approach by Hamas, can you think of any other solution ? (given that it is not about 'land' as many suggest, but about the 'Moslem lands' from a doctrinal perspective.)

You are welcome to describe me as a 'jihadist' its ok :) I'm really stirring the pot, hopefully to open minds to citizenship in Christ, where such things don't really arise. When I refer to Israels response.. its something they must work out, but in their shoes, I would be more of a Sharon than a Barak.(humanly speaking)

Truly, unless one sees the biggish piccy, and enters into the mind of the Jihadist and its connections to the beginnings of Islam, a lot of time will be wasted talking about 'negotiations' ... with the devil ?
Harrrrdly

Blessings