These are the real figures Opinionated.700,000 on disability pensions.You can get on a DSP for being and alcoholic or drug addict.Nearly 40% just have bad backs which are almost impossible to be disproven.330,000 mostly sinlgle mothers,some who make a career out of collecting Govt handouts.540,000 on the dole and numerous students who collect living away from home allowences while they live their parents.Now this does not include old age pensioners who should be getting a greater share of taxation.

So this is not socialism?There are only 8 million who work in private enterprise to support all this nonsense and many of these are part time female workers who have to work to support their families.

As soon as the Howard Govt tries to break this cycle you lot scream victim status.Well who are the real victims?It is the hard workers who have to work extra hours and pay extra taxes to support the bludgers that the left whingers like you have cultivated.Most people work out of necessity,not because they love it! Many of these lay abouts haven't been given the discipline at a young age to develop skills or have the education to be useful to anyone and thus expect the rest of us owe them a living!

So put up or shut up Opinionated,those of us in the real world know the truth and most Govts including the Howard Govt don't have the the political will to put and end to the nonsense that Gough Whitlam initiated;because there are votes in keeping people beholding to Govt handouts.The Howard Govt is more socialists than labor because they have grown the economy,raised more taxes through the GST and expanded the socialists state while playing lip service to being tough.Now IR reforms are another matter.I don't agree with some of their reforms.

Well Arjay, if they are the figures and I'd like the sources of your figures just for my own benefit then you make a point worth considering...

Many families are doing it tough in Australia for a multitude of reasons. I have a bad back... do two spinal fractures count?... but I'm not on any benefits... Arjay a crook back can be very debilitating so don't just accuse them of all being fakes, plus if you consider drug addiction an illness as I do then I can accept them being covered whilst under treatment. Obviously they should get back to work as soon as they are well again.

I object to being called a whinging lefty though... and I can't recall playing the victim card ... but if you say I did it must be right. Actually you can call me a whinging lefty victim anytime if you want...lol I can take it...lol You'd be wrong but hey freedom of expression is a wonderful thing. Ha!

I can't argue with you ... if you are right... John Howard must be a socialist and as we all know socialism doesn't work. God we got a socialist Govt and were never told... Those socialists are tricky devils.

I can't see too many socialist traits in the man myself but hey if you see them then that is fine.

Our little Johnny may have a heart afterall ... not that I'm a socialist, I'm a capitalist (just reassuring you) ... he's a kind generous man who protects the workers by taking away their rights, by giving tax cuts to the rich and takes us to war based on "faulty intelligence", and he defames and villifies refugees by saying that they threw their kids overboard when they apparently didn't.

I wonder why none of the refugees sued him personally for defamation of character? Afterall he did allegedly say it outside parliament and they were in Australian waters under Australian Law.

So I totally accept your point... John Howard is a socialist for his own political purposess.

hello J-Howard Brilliant politician ? Great Liar i think ? he is not telling the Australian People the Truth at any times Ever he treats the Australian People with Disregard and Arrogance he tells us that he is doing the right thing-he is always right all the others are Permanently Wrong it will take a Generation to Correct the Situation in Australia if ever it will Happen that is the Legacy of Honest Jonny Good Luck