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The Forum > Article Comments > ... And at least another ten years to undo the damage > Comments

... And at least another ten years to undo the damage : Comments

By Lyn Allison, published 2/3/2006

John Howard - skilled politician and the consummate con artist.

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"he is a con artist............" I stopped right there.

Where are you? You are not PM are you. Why dont you stop trying to take someone down a peg, and lift yourself off the canvas.

Unfortunately that is the nature of the beast. Propoganda is unfortuntately an essential tool in the media frenzy that follows politics.

You in your position should understand that in order to do the greatest good for the greatest number, you sell the benefits. Nobody should think he is truly evil, as he is not. This country is going well, he has created wealth and equity for many Australians, and we are still in the country where you can come from the most humble beginnings and get wherever you want to go, as the infrastructure to succeed is in place and accessible.

He has improved our wealth, our business and has faced the most difficult time as a leader since the Vietnam war, and made decisions based on the long term benefit of Australia. Yes, going to war is part of that, if you cant see the grand plan a mile away and the fact that Australia is poised to benefit, you need glasses and a heartbeat.

It is a shame we have knockers in this country. Guess what, If you politicians stop throwing stones at eachother and concentrated on your own ship, we would all be better off. Many people are sick of hearing politicians bagging and ripping at eachother, it is pathetic and shows you have nothing yourself but this means to gain support.

Praise the man, 10 years at the top, the country is in good shape, he can stay my captain any day. I dont see him writing posts about you, he probably has better things to do as he is the top dog.
Posted by Realist, Thursday, 2 March 2006 9:41:08 AM
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Fair dinkum and stone the crows...is Lyn Allison finished throwing her tantrum? Once again a fine exhibition of the left's tendency to patronise Australia and blame Howard for their failings. Has it ever occured to Allison that the reason Howard has won 4 elections straight is because Australians actually have exercised their right to accept his politics?

To give Australians any credit for making their decisions rationally would be simply too much for Allison and the like. Instead, according to the left, Australians are too insular, ignorant and inherently racist to make any meaningful decisions on their own accord. Why should an Australian be judged for preferring a beer and the cricket to sharing a bottle of Bollinger on the grass at parliament house after an abortion debate? Similarly why is an Australian a racist for objecting to minority stances that are clearly immoral and criminal in nature?

Why can't Australians be fond of 'mateship' and proud of our ANZAC and pioneering past without having to worry about it being denegrated. Sure mistakes have been made particularly with our indigenous people but has it really become too fashionable to sip lattes without anything 'nice' to say about one's country? Should we all feel bad that Sadamm has gone? Should we apologise to the parents of 'the children overboard' who it appears simply sunk their boat with their kids on it instead of throwing them overboard?

The funny thing is that the left has reduced its voting appeal largely to a small clique of 'intellectuals' who think they are better than everbody else. Young people have abandoned the left in droves. Professionals have done the same. And the working class is beginning to prefer cricket and VB to the incessant ramblings of the union apartchiks who care more about their place in history than their country's.
Posted by wre, Thursday, 2 March 2006 9:56:05 AM
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Well done wre and realist.

Once again, not a single argument being addressed. Just the usual "how dare you criticise our great leader, you lefty intellectual, ABC watching latte sipper you".

Tell me straight. Just yes or no. Do you really think Howard is an honest man who told the truth on WMDs, children overboard and AWB?
Posted by AMSADL, Thursday, 2 March 2006 10:06:57 AM
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I can't believe you have said "Now I don't believe for one minute that the majority of Australians actually want to live in such a society"
I really cannot comprehend this at all.
What do you mean such a society, we are paid fair wages, have access to excellent medical care, home ownership, education, the list goes on.
We dont have millions of people working for $2.00 an hour, and tens of thousands starving and living on the streets like other countries.
Posted by jackson, Thursday, 2 March 2006 10:08:47 AM
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Not a single argument addressed- I guess that makes us more left than right then. I do think Howard is an honest man- he is also politically savvy, intelligent and realises that Australians ARE SMART ENOUGH to see through the duplicitous arguments that patronise and belittle them....

Howard realised a long time ago that Australians were NOT interested in elevating issues like 'the children overboard' issue, AWB, 'Sorry day' and the Kyoto protocol above jobs, wealth and national security. Allison can talk about median housing all she wants but the fact remains more mortgages were defaulted under Keating than in any other era. Allison can lament the levels of debt too but can she really ignore the fact that economically Australia is better placed than ever before to sustain the debt? Unemployment at 5% goes a long way too.

Most conservatives would admit the invasion of Iraq was strategically flawed but would certainly not lament Sadam's removal- another contention supported within Australia. Most Australians can't understand the fuss about 'children overboard'- sinking a boat first is probably worse than throwing kids in the ocean.
Posted by wre, Thursday, 2 March 2006 10:24:09 AM
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It would be great if there was a truly electable alternative government that could actually do something about some of the points made in the article. But it appears that once again we will have no choice but to keep the status quo. Even with it's many faults the Liberal party has proved an effective government of this country. Lyn Allison makes some good points but provides no solutions whatsoever and by basically saying that Australians are gullible and unable to decide what is best for them has lost my vote yet again (I have previously voted Democrats).
Posted by sajo, Thursday, 2 March 2006 10:26:34 AM
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Messrs. Bartlett and Murray, the two remaining rational members of the Australian Democrats, must be embarrassed by this empty "vessel" leader of last resort.
Posted by Leigh, Thursday, 2 March 2006 10:30:07 AM
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My problem is that I don't particularly like this Government's social agenda or its failure to properly enforce Ministerial standards. On the other hand, who do I really have to vote for as an alternative?

Even Labor's most eminent and respected members acknowledge that their candidates are not chosen on ability but on their control of several key unions.

But the lack of talent on the Labor front bench is totally eclipsed by the self-serving fairies at the bottom of the Senate who make up the Greens and Democrats. What a bunch of losers. Point to one of those people who has been able to achieve anything worthwhile in life beyond get themselves elected by an incredibly small number of voters in small states - Keating's appraisal of them as "unrepresentative swill" is still the most succinct description I've seen. Losers who get drunk and beat up little old lady senators - good one Andrew. Losers whose main claim to fame is that they wear Doc Martens - good one Natasha. Losers whose main claim to fame is that they were the last one left in their party to be chosen as dear and glorious leader - good one Allison.

Come back and tell me about things when you've managed to gain some credibility. But given your likely wipe-out as a party in 2007, I won't be surprised if you don't.

Cheers

Kevin
Posted by Kevin, Thursday, 2 March 2006 10:50:50 AM
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We should all realise that in order for us to move forward we must remember the lessons that history has taught us.
I still remember Mr Howard as the inefectual little man acting as treasurer for Malcolm Fraser - and in my opinion his personal nor political stature has grown from there.
It deeply saddens and concerns me that so many of my fellow Australians don't realise that this man in his 10 year term has comprimised every principle and virtue that has for many years allowed our nation to hold its head up high in the international arena.
By making us a terrorist target and supporting a corrupt and intellectually deficient Bush administration in the US any economic or business achievements during Mr Howard's time pale into insignificance.
Posted by clear thinker, Thursday, 2 March 2006 11:11:22 AM
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Like all the posters so far, I find the argument put by Lyn allision as very much the behaviour of a “spoiled brat”.

Mention was made of the national trading deficit that becomes the national debt.

I am going to make a few comments;

• As a country we are spending more than we earn
• Means we pay our selves more than we earn, or the world market place would pay us.
• To criticise the increasing national debt, one also has to criticise the over payment of ourselves.
• Never hear any words like that coming out of the same mouth that increasing debt criticism comes from?
• Agriculture is one of the few industries that have a world market income, but Australian market costs.
• Never a peep from the left about this obvious discrimination.
• In fact never a peep from all sides of politics about the very obvious discrimination that world market income/Australian market cost means to the agriculture sector.

As far as her comment about leaving uni with a $160,000 debt for a service that cost $600,000 to a $1,000,000 as being very negative for the person involved.
• You have a excellent opportunity to advance your self in a career
• Many of us do not get this benefit; we just stuck with the whole bill, not 20% as is the case here.
• Only repayable if you actually earn above the thresh hold for repayment.
• When you buy a business, not only do you have to repay the whole amount, with tax, but also many stamp duty “type” tax's up front.

Some people are never satisifed, even though we live in one of the most people sensitive country's of the world.
Posted by dunart, Thursday, 2 March 2006 11:17:24 AM
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Poor Realist and his ilk. Not really interested in a kinder, fairer world just like the PM and his ministry. So maybe we can look forward to another 10 years of racism, corruption, lying, minority bashing, illegal imprisonment, illegal wars, environmental destruction, less education and health services, bible toting ministers, intolerance, lower wages and poorer working conditions, massive defecits, disgusting outpourings of nationalism etc. etc etc.
I left the mean and nasty Thatchers Britain to come to this country.
Now I feel I have jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. Oh and before Mr Realist tells me to go home and describes me as a not a real Austrailian I am here to stay.
I think a realist would agree that this governments behaviour is dishonest and totally unacceptable. Ah, but there good with the economy!
Posted by Pom, Thursday, 2 March 2006 11:19:12 AM
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Well whingeing Pom if your opinion of Australia is "racism, corruption, lying, minority bashing, illegal imprisonment, illegal wars, environmental destruction, less education and health services, bible toting ministers, intolerance, lower wages and poorer working conditions, massive defecits, disgusting outpourings of nationalism etc. etc etc." why would you want to live here, go home.
Posted by jackson, Thursday, 2 March 2006 11:28:16 AM
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Lyn who?

People key saying that Howard lied, That is, delibrately quoting untruths when KNOWING the truth. Well if so I hope they or their friends bring forward evidence as labour would truly love to see it and use it. Obviously these people can find it despite the majority of the media -left wing at that and pollies that would search for that. And also take it up to the French and German intellegent agencies that supplied a significant amount of pre Iraq war intelligence.
Posted by The Big Fish, Thursday, 2 March 2006 11:29:19 AM
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Hear, hear Lyn!

If only the Liberals had managed the economy. They haven't and one day Australia will wake to see the economy in ruin much like it was in the 1930s all due to the myriad of small decisions the Liberals have made over the past decade.

How many unemployed Australian IT workers are aware that in Dec 1999 Alexander Downer was encouraging industries to outsource their IT work to India. We should have been deaf, poor memory, gun toting wheat dealers and we would have earned $1 million for 10 months work.
Posted by billie, Thursday, 2 March 2006 11:38:21 AM
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You are as Aussie as they come Pom, thus you call yourself pom instead of a brit.

Steady on old chap, you are entitled to your opinion. I only attack those who attack me personally, or who i refute.

Nothing is perfect, name one government on the globe who is?

Nothing will ever be perfect, there will always be problems, but at least we have got an experienced committed leader. I dont support the liberals, i support a good leader. Yes he lies, they all do, if they told the truth every day we would all run around frantic, that is the nature of the job.

Any role in life consists of putting on a facade, i suggest most of you have a facade at work aswell. Rip the guts out of a fellow Australian still having a go, not sitting there at his age doing nothing. He leads our country well, better than alternates and pom if you think you are coming into the fire here in Aussie, dont go to 90% of the worlds less fortunate nations, you would be in A FURNACE.

Its all good, there will be a revolution and a changing of the guard with a new political party, otherwise Johnny will grow old gracefully in his chair.
Posted by Realist, Thursday, 2 March 2006 11:40:57 AM
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To borrow from the borrowed chant of Kim Huynh.

"Booyakasha Lyn Allison! Big Up Yourself!"
Posted by keith, Thursday, 2 March 2006 11:45:17 AM
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There is a remarkable divergence in the posts here. On one side there are people who say Howard is dreadful on an absolute level, on the other there are people saying "don't be unreasonable, who else could we choose?"
The first lot led off by the vacuous ninny who wrote the article are simply dishonest. Comparing anything with perfection will always result in its failure. Logical judgements in politics must be made relative to the choice available.
Posted by Bull, Thursday, 2 March 2006 12:33:47 PM
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The article is essentially another left-wing whinge in lieu of doing anything positive. Sure Howard's got his problems, but tell me what PM hasn't had any.

I tell you what would be the real disaster - if Allison & Co had their hands on the tiller of the country.
Posted by RobP, Thursday, 2 March 2006 12:58:40 PM
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RIP Democraps and good riddance

Yes Australia is meaner and less tolerant of certain racial groups, but is that because of the policy of this government? or is it more to do with other world event like Bali and 9/11. Why are we blaming one person, maybe the leftie fairies can concort that Howard was the bomber in Bali and mastermind behind 9/11.

btw, Education/hospital/transport etc are state policies, before the left try to blame this on Howard as well. These policies are run by the left labour party, they are the ones with the record Revenue and massive overspending on things other than education/hospital/transport. I heard that Iemma (premier of NSW) is blaming Howard for the system of distributing money to the state, rewarding Qld and costing NSW -$3 billion (over 10 years).

problems with the arguments are as follows
Howard did not set the way state money are divided
the states agreed to the division in the first place
Qld labor is also running out of money (even with their record revenue) they are probably be blaming Howard that the error was not bigger.

So while Lyn Allison might give no credit to Howard on the economy, I am quite glad that Labor (should I say 90% union hecks, and what do union hecks knows about running a economy) have not been given the chance to ruin the economy like Carr and Beattie (and their union ecks) did to NSW/QLD.

The lefties will always come up with more fairytale, I look forward to the next one
Posted by dovif, Thursday, 2 March 2006 1:09:56 PM
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The argument that we have it so good therefore shouldn't complain is extremely dangerous. The only reason we have it so good is that in the past we thought for ourselves and took action. We slowly allow all that separates us from these less than free countries to be eroded whilst we sit back and congratulate ourselves on how good we've got it.

His elections have been won through smear and scare campaigns, not through rational presentation of policies. The article on propaganda points out that manipulating fear is one of the primary methods of controlling a population. We were told that Iraq was on the verge of annihilating the western way of life and that Howard was the only one with the vision and strength to save us, by following Bush into an illegal war. It's easy to say he's done a good job if you believe the lies that set the stage.

And what of climate change? Our children will be suffering for his deep concern for the profits of big business in Australia for generations to come. What use is saving a few jobs now in light of what faces us if even the moderate climate change scenarios come to fruition?

There isn't much on offer from the other political parties, they are all essentially following the same line, and none of them look beyond the short span of an election cycle in their consideration of the future of our country. The fact of the matter is that if we buy in to the lies, just because there's no better alternative, then there never will be a better alternative. We have to call it what it is, stir the pot a bit, and then hopefully something better may rise to the surface. While we pat him on the back and say what a good job he's done, all the other pollies will be crawling over themselves to emulate him, in the hope of succeeding where he did.
Posted by geoffc, Thursday, 2 March 2006 1:10:04 PM
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This article highlights the reason that Lyn Allison is unfit to serve in the Senate. Voters are not interested in politicians with ideas. It is the voters who have the ideas. The basis of this reasoning is that ballot papers are not filled out by politicians, or political parties, but by voters. The task of the politicians is to carry out the voters ideas. If they fail to do this, the voters will throw them out of office at the next election, and replace them with someone who will implement the voters ideas. Allison has failed to come to terms with the idea that the reason the Howard Government has a majority in the Seante is that that was the way the people voted. The most significant thing about the Tampa incident is that Howard's strongest supporters were the labor party's heartland. He was acting in accordance with the overwhelming will of the people. About the only way I can see Allison surviving is if she can find a way to dismiss the people, and appoint another. Roll on 30/6/2008!
Posted by plerdsus, Thursday, 2 March 2006 1:11:33 PM
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Thanks for that, love, I really had forgotten some of the great things Howard has done for this country. It was nice of you to list them, to remind me.
He has proved much wiser than me, & a lot of others.
I was worried about the GST, & I think it would have been better unchanged from the original, but he was right.
I still have a bit of trouble with some the gun laws, but not much.

The industrial relations changes have me more than a bit worried, but, with his record [of getting it right], & his willingness to do a total back flip when wrong, I'll give it a year before I say I know better.
Again, thanks for the trip down the memory lane, of how to run a country.
Hasbeen
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 2 March 2006 1:21:16 PM
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While we needed a critique of Howards Way a liitle more incisive than some of the dross handed up in the dailies Ms Alison's attempt only highlighted the ineptitude of the opposition parties that have cleverly conspired over the last decade to make John Winston appear much brighter than he really is - not that he is not a clever man - but he is no genius and I really think his vision for society is limited to what dribbles out of economic advancement.

The first third of Ms Alison essay was little more than a description of how the average politician attempts to manipulate publc opinion and the media - none of them are immune from that tendency; Keating was good at it, Hawke was great at it and Howard is no different - and Ms Alison is probably honing her own skills as we speak.

She goes on to highlight some of the politically succesful moves of Howard that she sees are counterporductive and dishonest - she may well be rightin her assesment; many people have grave reservations about IR changes, the WMD fiasco, thei nvasion of Iraq Mk 2, Children Over board, the incarceration of refugees to the point of insanity, Cornelia Rua etc - they all point to a form of moral bankruptcy - but all can be, by some good spin, justified acts or explainable over sights. Some even see them as righteous deeds and keys to our future prosperity.

Whatever our opinion on Howard right wrong good or bad the fact that Alison, Beazley and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all are unable to articulate an alternative social and economic contract that can engage the Austrlain people is the real problem, not wether Howard lies or is locked in the past.

Howard has had unfettered rule, even more so now, he is earnest and has faith in his views and that of his supporters - those who disagreee with him need to lift their game or the allegations of being constant whingers will never go away.
Posted by sneekeepete, Thursday, 2 March 2006 1:42:53 PM
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Howard's biggest failing in my opinion is pandering to the far- right and their racist, bigoted mates to score votes. The Liberals' taking Professor Cooray's advice back in the nineties to be nice to the extreme right, including groups known to be fascists, proved to me beyond doubt that the Liberals value their own politcal future as more important than Australia's peoples.

Money wise- that 14 billion dollars the governemnt is hoarding is ours. The interest the Liberals are getting is being offset by we the people as we max out on credit cards and struggle with mortgage repayments so as to see our kids through uni and so on. Thiefs.

No doubt one of the Liberals will come down with the usual you-all- piss-it-down-the-drain-and-puff-it-out response.

Then the bashing of Jim Dowling whilst at a Liberal hosted function. No integrity keeping that quiet.

Keith mate. Do us favour and stop posting Henry Lawson. You are just confirming what Allison is saying. The majority of Australia's people live on the coast and in the cities. TISM are more relevant. Radio ignored great bands like Hunters and Collectors and WPA - that is unAustralian. Shakespeare and Salmann Rushdie's unversal works say more about Australian life on the mortgage belt than Lawson's colloquail whining. Relationships make the world go round not mythical white-fella versions of noble savage, flies, mossies and horse shieet.

Then there is that idiot song Waltzing Matilda. A thief gets caught and tops himself rather than face the consequences of his actions. [Deleted for swearing]. Is there some metaphor there I am not getting. Sounds like Liberal Party politcal carry. Liberals stuff up then, rather than fess up, they run away and hide behind a mountain of little white lies.

Then there is Andrew Bolt. The Prime Ministers little 2 plus 2 equals five propagandist. What a great way to stir up sentiment whilst keeping a safe distance.

I try to see the good in every one but hell bells i have to go hard at with John Howard and his crew.
(Statesmen and women)
Posted by rancitas, Thursday, 2 March 2006 1:50:27 PM
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Lyn Allison seems to be unfamiliar with the phrase "constructive criticism".
Posted by Donnie, Thursday, 2 March 2006 2:05:34 PM
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Rancitas

You don't know the real Lawson.

He is more in the vein of the Russian Nikolai Leskov, and much more of the people than either Shakespeare or Rushdie. Like Leskov his work has an earthiness and much resonates even today.

The real Lawson was of the city. He was no whiner. Most of his work was about relationships (True he was a man of his time and focused exclusively on non-indigenous people.) He was so unlike the 'Banjo' who wallowed in the feel good horse poo and symbolised by lonely dancing German nomads.

We'll always differ about the greatness of John. ;-)
Posted by keith, Thursday, 2 March 2006 2:30:13 PM
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"The Prime Minister has elevated the influence of Christian religion in politics. Religion is perhaps more visible now in Australian politics than for almost 30 years, and a growing number of Australians are concerned about this."

Lyn, when you, Andy "Pisspot" Bartlett and Natasha Stott Despoya loose you senate seats in 2008 - good riddance - rendering the Democrats unrepresented in the federal parliament, consider that statements like the above don't help.

The majority of Australians are happy that the religion which forms our heritage (quite a living one too) and so much of our culture is not removed from public life (such as your party's attempts to remove prayers in parliament). What's more, the evidence of students, many of which profess no religion, or who have parents which profess no religion, heading to Christian schools (especially Catholics ones) for the values and virtues professed there shows a society-wide change towards respecting religions, and the place they played and still do play in forming character and imbibed values. We have a division of church and state, but that doesn't mean we seek to disguise and remove our living history from anything to do with government. The Christian tradition is a 2000 year old one, and being the cornerstone of our culture, it should be a lively part of debate, through the Christian members of our parliaments.
Posted by DFXK, Thursday, 2 March 2006 3:04:32 PM
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It looks like some people here aren't prepared to even look at whether Lyn has made some valuable points.

Remember JH is a Lawyer.... Do you people tell lawyer jokes?

Remember JH is a politician ... Do you people tell politician jokes?

Well I suspect you tell them because they are often true.

Joke 1. How do you tell when a politician is lying? Answer His/Her lips are moving!

Joke 2. What do you call 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? Answer A good start!

Funny huh?

It is very easy if you are of a single political persuasion to be offended by criticisms of your man/woman... How can you help it you've voted that way all your life? But if you have voted one way all your life haven't you effectively done your little bit to undermine democracy.

It is your obligation as a voter in a democracy to vote against someone whom you would normally vote for based on issues. Anyone can vote one way all their lives it takes no thought at all!

If you don't take that obligation seriously and jump to the defence of a political figure automatically just because you voted that way all your life are you truly a thinking voter?

That JH has been in power for 10 years .... must surely entitle you and others to think critically and analyze that situation. If you can only see good things from JH's Prime Ministerial reign then you are even out of step with JH himself.

Believe in Lyn or not she has at least got those little cogs working in your heads.

C'mon why don't you admit your political biases to yourself at least.... I have voted for all the major parties at one time or the other and guess what... I'm a thinking, swinging voter.

But don't say you are a swinging voter when you have never done it cause that way you are lying to youself... and that may indicate you're dumb!
Posted by Opinionated2, Thursday, 2 March 2006 3:05:10 PM
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After Ran having a dummy spit, I Know J H is not a Marxist, and Andrew Bolt is an Alien from Space (Somewhere), Illuminati even.
Ooo brother, now who is ranting and propagandizing.
The Democrats have more in common than Mao than Andrew Bolt ever could , let alone J H.
But it is good for a laugh. So let’s get back to the Leftist Twilight Zone for good humor.
Posted by All-, Thursday, 2 March 2006 3:32:49 PM
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John Howard is our first Mushroom PM, kept in the dark & fed bullsh*t, a parasite growing fat on the short memories of his electorate.

His epitaph will read "I wasn't told"
Posted by bennie, Thursday, 2 March 2006 3:49:34 PM
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DFXK, if you're anything to go by, "they're" certainly not heading to the Christian schools for a traditional education in reading and writing!

Politics and religion SHOULD NOT MIX!
Posted by Concerned Citizen, Thursday, 2 March 2006 4:09:27 PM
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To me, Yes I grew up as a Liberal [Menzies] voter. I see howard as a liar [core and non core for starters] thus deceitful and untrustworthy as well as divisive. This ma- err politician has not been good for this nation at all. As well he is, not his fault of course, so bloody ugly. Looks a lot like Benito Mussolini - to those who remember. Acts a lot like him as well. There's no way I would buy a used car from this renowned liar. numbat
Posted by numbat, Thursday, 2 March 2006 4:15:42 PM
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Every time I read an article and then the posts that follow, I love this country and our way of life even more.
Posted by SAVOTER06, Thursday, 2 March 2006 5:41:15 PM
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This article from Lyn is absolutely spot on.
I could not agree with her more.
She has summarised the Howard years with absolute perception and truth. And she has an absolute right to put her case.
It is interesting to note how most of the 'conservative' responders simply attack her personally and not her arguments. I thought this forum was for sensible discussion and not just a 'dart board' for frustrated pugilists.
How come the moderator does not point this out?
Posted by Robin J, Thursday, 2 March 2006 7:38:45 PM
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The Democrats are not lefties, they have worked so closely with the right wing and now they are trying to reconnect with the real world. So why they whinging about JH now? This article says nothing new, we all know that JH is a liar, some people just approve of his lies.

The Dempcrats were spawned by the Liberals and when the going gets tough they roll over, as Meg Lees did, and cede all thought to Howard and co.
I will never forget or forgive the image of Meg Lees giving us the GST.
So please do not suggest the democrats are left wing.
Posted by Aka, Thursday, 2 March 2006 7:43:01 PM
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Yes ,"Let's not be conned for another ten years." Can the democrates elevate irrelevancey to a higher plane?

When John Howard came into the power after the"Recession we had to have" our Federal Govt had a deficit of $96 billion,almost 10% of Australia's GDP.After tens years this is all but paid off.The Howard Govt has spent more on social security than Labor could have ever achieved in their wildest dreams because they are better economic managers.

The Latte sipping socialists like the Democrats still don't get it.It is the economy stupid.These socialists will gladly draw big salaries from the public service or private enterprise and want a prospective Labor Govt to tax the life out of working people for their airy fairy notions of social justice.Yep, get many on social security so they have more time for crime and do cash jobs.I see it on a daily basis.What a bunch of hypocrites!

My greatest disappointment with the Howard Govt has been the lack of tax reform.The GST in it's present from[thanks to Meg Lees] is an absolute mess and is a mill stone around the neck of business.The GST is not entirely a consumer tax.It is more a tax on business.As time has gone by businesses under competition have not put their prices up,and so in many cases have absorbed the GST.Notice how inflation did not increase when the GST was introduced.This means that many businesses simply absorbed it and many simply went broke.

It is time for the Howard Govt to simplify our tax system or stifle
the growth of economic activity.Creating jobs for accountants does not add to our national wealth.

John Howard will continue to be there because the oppostion from
all parties is both weak and has no vision for a unified,strong Australia.
Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 2 March 2006 7:51:19 PM
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Personally, I still cannot see why we don't have annual general elections.

Better accountability
Better transparency
Better long-term planning
Better stability
Better politicians
Better educated electorate
Better mandates to actually achieve things
Better sense of sovereignty in an ever-increasingly globalised world

... and that's just SOME of the more pragmatic improvements.

By holding general elections EVERY year, it would better inculcate democratic principles & practices into our culture.

If you believe annual general elections would be like having the elections we have at present, only every year, you have completely missed the point of what a paradigm shift it would be.

What do ALL religions have in common? ANNUAL festivals which celebrate & inculcate their "world view" - this goes as much for secular religions as for the more traditional religions (you CANNOT hold Xmas, Easter, Passover, Hajj, ANZAC Day, Australia Day, Melbourne Cup, etc. etc. every 2nd, 3rd or 4th year!)

If you're scared of this idea, I beg you to think a little more deeply about it. Good people of the 19th Century were just as scared of universal suffrage, but who today would consider a country to be "democratic" unless it gave the vote to every adult?

Is there any chance that the vote could be taken OFF a section of the community now? Not likely!

I think the same will be said af annual general elections. Many will oppose the idea - for much the same reasons they opposed universal suffrage (fear of "the mob"?)

However, when annual general elections are adopted by any one country - and seen to succeed - see how quickly the idea spreads across the world! (Much like universal suffrage and secret ballot spread from Australia in the late 19th & 20th centuries).

Council, State & Federal elections should be together so that parties would be FORCED to align their policies across all three levels of government!

I'm willing to vote once a year.

What's stopping YOU from wanting it? Especially given most of us on this site want more accountability from our politicians!

In peace,
David (from Perth, Western Australia)
Posted by PerthWestern, Thursday, 2 March 2006 8:06:20 PM
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Democrats should learn something about democracy or change their name.

My other main point is that I have chosen Keating as my benchmark to measure all present and future PM’s. It might be a while before I really get disappointed. My disappointments with Howard therefore do not yet carry enough weight to list them here, although I promise that when I decide to make my protest vote, it will not be directed to the demoncrats. I’m even prepared to move to make it count.
Posted by Seeker, Thursday, 2 March 2006 10:45:58 PM
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I am sure we have had a Nine year stint by the Labour party that managed to stuff Australia right up.

Howard has done nothing to change those stuff ups which has virtually sold Australians out.

Business will tell you they are in control of the economy, it has nothing to do with Government. The Government only take the credit.

Harvey Norman Director laughed on the Business Sunday program when it was put to him that the Government was creating Australia's economical success.

Which concludes recent stories that Business group who advise the Government on policy, is actually dictating the policy.

By Business as a major contributor to Governing policy, what are the chances of a conscience when it comes to the major wellbeing of a countries Labour dependent market?
Posted by Suebdootwo, Thursday, 2 March 2006 10:46:02 PM
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Personally I believe many posters disregard the consistancy of the Howard Government which began in Opposition with "We will never ever have a G.S.T. the 1993 election killed that idea" since 1995 you could always rely on this government.

We had "core" and "non-core" promises, "children overboard" the war "we had to have" the "non existent WMD's" the "AWB scandal" a lowering of Ministerial stands following the loss of 18 Ministers or parliamentry secretaries in the early years, ah yes consistancy is what we like from our governments.

John "Bonsai" Howard is the most srewd politician we have known since "Pig Iron Bob Menzies" how do we know when "bonsai" is not telling the truth, "his lips are moving" with the introduction of Workchoices [ironic name for a "NO choice law] the Howard battlers may at last realise enough is enough, as their wages and conditions fall. Some employers could not wait for this law to become official, and are already beginning to strip employees of their livelyhoods.

So let's all buy a $1,000 ticket to have dinner with "Bonsai" I noticed an inordinate amount of "Howard's battlers" at that one! and celebrate a "decade of fear" with Johhny. Bonsai is a little Bush. Oh nearly forgot, yes Winston, I fear it may be a communist plot....
Posted by SHONGA, Friday, 3 March 2006 4:13:10 AM
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Mind you having said that, I do agree with the notion of some posters, that JWH has only survived because Beazley "yes that's what we believe also" does not provide an alternative. He seems to present much like Crean before him, a nice bloke, but not leadership material. Now we look like getting stuck with Bill Shorten, he could run for Mark Vaile's current job, Deputy Liberal PM.

The Labor Party has never been more ineffectual in my living memory, the last ALP Leader of any substance was Whitlam more than 30 years ago. Since then Hawke, Keating, could have been Liberal PM's, Crean ineffectual, as is Beazley. The scary thing is that the last poll I saw gave the Labor Party the lead with 52% of the vote. This would not be disturbing if they offered something different, which sadly they don't.

Australian politics is no longer about two conflicting philosophies, merely a change of face. The most hypocrisy I have seen for a while was yesterday, Beazley had a go at "Bonsai" for being too Americian, an insult to be sure, not only to "Bonsai" but to the balance of the countries that make up America, Beaz should have said the United States of America. Beazley's hobbies include yank history!

Bonsai is a con artist, however Beazley is a b#$$^hit artist, how do you choose, chips or straws? It is way overtime that the ALP came back to their base, if they do not, they will shrivel into political oblivion, and quite rightly so, pardon the pun.
Posted by SHONGA, Friday, 3 March 2006 5:17:15 AM
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Lyn Allison,at last I have found someone that agrees,with me, for a long time,I have submitted my comments to some Australian newspapers,and made it clear,that in my opinion John Howard is a con expert,stating my reasons for coming to that conclusion,but I was made out to be,someone that really does not know what He was saying,and all comments came from Howard suppoters,wearing tinted blinkers,but as Lyn Allison points out,all is fact,and Australians will suffer in the end,and it will take the ALP a long time to undo the damage done by John Howard and his government,the coalition.
Posted by KAROOSON, Friday, 3 March 2006 5:51:47 AM
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Having gone back and after reading the pro Howard supporters,as to why they think John Howard is doing a good job,their main reasons seem to be about economics,and personal,benefits they gain from "HOWARDISM",but dicard the fact of the moral issues that John Howard has been responsoble for,Iraq helpng in the slaughter of innocent people,in a war of mass destruction,there is not one,repeat not one good reason for the invasion of Iraq,back home in Australia a few reminders to the Howard supporters,IR, AWB PRIVATE SCHOOLS,MEDICARE,now our state schools,compare them with the private schools,and where did the money go to all private schools,CATHOLIC ANGLICAN and ALL other PRIVATE SCHOOLS.And I will again be so bold to say the following,private Schools are the breeding ground of future COALTITION members of parliament MP and SENATORS, and the ELITE that vote LIBERAL,this is the truth and I STAND or STICK to what I said and have just written.
Posted by KAROOSON, Friday, 3 March 2006 6:20:32 AM
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The test of any politician is at the ballot box.

The level of “Household debt” is a matter which the “household” and not government should decide.

Some things (Abu Ghraib, Cornelia Rau, Vivian Solon) might well have happened anyway.

The degree of ‘control’ which any Australian government can bring to bear over foreign nationals behaviour in foreign countries is “limited” and the cases of Cornelia Rau and Vivian Solon both highlight the problems (faced everyday by clinicians) which are inherent in dealing with those who are clinically deluded/delusional.

The damage done most is when governments think they know best. They believe they know how to spend our money better than we do. They feel the urge to tell us how many children we should have and encourage us to have them with maternity grants and leave provisions.

In a democracy, the electorate gets the government it deserves because it voted for that government.

Where would we be today had Keating remained at the helm (the theme to Titanic kicks in).
What would Beazley be doing had he got in?
We can all shudder at the “political climate” if looney Latham had managed to fools enough.

The Democrats. They do not reside in the house of reps. I guess sitting where they do, they are entitled to express in accordance with the seating arrangement and be “cross”.

Ten years with John Howard and the coalition at the helm saw public debt levels almost eliminated. Public debt, the product of under funded government largesse, is the source of “inflation”. Turning around from the runaway economic lunacy of Hawke and Keating, when even Keating admitted he was steering us into becoming a “banana republic” was a massive achievement. Paying down the massive public debt, inherited from the profligate socialists, progressively and systematically has been an act of discipline of heroic proportions and one which we all benefit from.

Where would “public debt” levels be if we were still suffering socialist meddling?
If “meaner” is judged on less "public debt", then that is a good thing too.
Posted by Col Rouge, Friday, 3 March 2006 6:55:24 AM
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Col states "The test of any politician is at the ballot box", which is axiomatic, but fails to tell the whole story.

It as closely aligned to "we get the government we deserve", which is another way of saying that the party in power is a reflection of the will of the people.

But is that actually the case?

In order to stand for parliament, you need to join a political faction, and wheedle your way through the pre-selection process with deals, trade-offs and back-scratching. Witness the current Labour shenanigans in Victoria, or the shoe-horning of Turnbull into Wentworth.

The battle has nothing to do with the electorate, who are purely a means to an end. If you live in a high-profile, swinging constituency, you will be better served for choice than if you are in a safe seat, where the creed is "jobs for the boys", but that is the full extent of consideration.

The identity of the individual you are asked to vote for depends more upon inter-factional deals than on the electability, integrity or capability of the potential member.

And when all this activity is finished, the deals are made, the factions quietened, the quid-pro-quos finalized, we are then allowed to vote.

Does this in any way, shape or form deliver a system where the wishes of the electorate play any part at all?

I don't think so.

I was fortunate for a while to be able to vote for an independent, who was the very last of the true representatives of his constituency. He lived there, worked there, greeted and was greeted by people on the street, and had a streak of integrity a mile wide. He was a maverick, of course, and showed up the manufactured politicians for what they were – products of their own system.

So they shifted the constituency boundaries. We now have a fat-cat party hack whose loyalty is to the people who got him there – his factional mates – and not to his electorate.

“Tested at the ballot box?” No way.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 3 March 2006 7:32:24 AM
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Lyn

well said - there is much in this article to agree with - whatever one's political opinion.
Howard is the master politician of the past 26 years - and has out-lasted or vanquished several labor leaders
- thanks for the reminder and outline of what he has done, as he has made the role of 'father of the nation' for himself.

I find the other posts on the site - a sad indictement of our political discourse and level of discussion

Lyn this is an important statement for the clear-thinkers - one that somehow - just isnt getting into popular debate - and have a look at Peter Hartcher's article in SMH - 3 March
thanks and well done
Posted by pat1, Friday, 3 March 2006 9:28:39 AM
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Hamlet, Keith, and All-

ALL- You send me to web sites that contain nonsense like “Marx said this but Hitler may as well have said it” - followed by a long quotation from Mister twoplustwoequalsfive(Andrew Bolt) to further a supposed academic argument - not to mention the Adware or whatever that was dumped on my PC and stuffed things up when I tried to first open the page. And you expect to be taken seriously?

Liberals: I will confess a little projected anger when I “spat the dummy” (just finished bleeding a clutch when the f*cking miserable little f*cking air bubble just wouldn’t f*cking flush not to mention repeating “in – out” two zillion times. Then I heard a friend of mine lost a few grand worth of product to shoplifters. Jesus lewesus I am pissed off. I am no a vegetable. It aint 1984 yet. Nevertheless, I stand by what I said re: Liberals and am proud to have said it. Actually, don’t get me started on Liberals again. What aboiut that seven thousand dollar grant to first home owners. Giving money to people already in a positon to purchase a home is robbing from those who are not in a position to do so. The rich get richer and the poor get screwed over. Strong direction - read: bullying to the right. Mainstream values - example: lying (ten percent of the time?), meanness, classism, theft etc.

Keith - who he (the Russian fella)?

Keith, staff and posters. A present for you from me for putting up with me.

I wish I were a cup of tea,
Dear Lord if you were to give a gift to me,
That is what I want to be,
And it wouldn’t be such an absurdity,
Seeing old mates all gather round ,
With friendly banter and not a frown,
Sharing goodwill and happiness around,
As you all sip and drink me down.

Don’t take that last line literally. Yeah I know - but I try.
Posted by rancitas, Friday, 3 March 2006 11:16:39 AM
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I think Gerard Henderson made an insightful comment recently when he said: look at what John Howard does, not what he says. Let's face it, most of the political discourse is BS, regardless of which political party is in power. Even Lindsay Tanner recently said that politics is all hyperbole.

So while Allison is right when she criticises Howard's rhetoric, what people like her miss is that Howard is all about maintaining a continuum in terms of what he DOES (as opposed to what he says). In the end, voters will make their decision based on that aspect. While people like Allison are being lofty and idealistic, Howard is being quietly pragmatic and realistic.

When you read between the lines, the real criticism of the left is that they don't know how to get things done. Once it starts working out that most of the elecorate want results - they don't necessarily care how it happens - it will be more successful politically.
Posted by RobP, Friday, 3 March 2006 11:37:45 AM
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Whilst not a fan, John Howard is a very astute politician... and if the alleged AWM scandal doesn't stop him nothing will.

Most people accept that Mr Keating was not a good PM. But through the Hawke-Keating years they invented some systems that Howard has used very effectively.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

It was Labor who set up Centrelink
It was Labor who created the refugee camp
It was Labor who started the privitization push
It was Labor who floated the dollar
It was Labor who introduced Uni fees
It was Labor who lessened Union power
It was Labor who introduced Medicare.

So on all these issues, when a negative arises, Howard can always argue that Labor introduced it. And Labor just has to cop it, Kim was there through the entire process.

Labor were certain they were going to win the GST election by having no new tax plan. How smug and self centred was that? They lost the unloseable election!

The high interest rates in Keatings reign were a world wide trend BUT we raised them far too quickly causing the recession Keating said "was the recession we had to have"... With people going to the wall he said that!

PLUS Keating taught the Libs how to attack in parliament and boy do they do it well.

Now the world has lower interest rates, ours are actually high compared with other countries. The Howard Govt can gloat about "low interest rates" even though untrue in world terms but true compared it to the Keating years. Local interest rates are what Aussie's watch!

So Howard really is the Lucky Man in the Lucky Country at a lucky time. But with the AWM allegations his luck may just have run out!

Labors 10 years in opposition is a reflection of a party that fails to heed warnings and listens only to it's advisors instead of the public. Even the search for answers by Hawke didn't include the general public.

Well done Labor you have made Howard look so much better than he really is!
Posted by Opinionated2, Friday, 3 March 2006 12:48:04 PM
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All- I engage people like you because I no a snob - not because your ideas are sensible. And I am sure you and others are prejudiced. Why?

Recently I was having a little joust with Hamlet. Hamlet seems very learned. I come to my PC and just write pretty well off the top of my head. Rainer don’t say it. So when Hamlet asked me what rules or tenets are mine (rules, tenets pretty much the same thing Hamlet - you were just digging yourself out that hole with semantics), with my warped sense of humour, I decided to play a little trick.

I posted some rules for some cultural exchange. Now Hamlet suggested that they were from “Hamlet” the play. Hamlet the poster - did I mention usury (wish I had)? Nevertheless, kudos to Hamlet for there is a lot of similarity between the two.

The point that I made is clear. All- you and other anti-liberal naysayers need the thing tagged, labelled or coloured before you react. You are incapable of thinking for yourselves. Are you party or group hacks?

Those rules were mostly communist forms of self-restraint which could be deemed morals. If I had said, “here are some communist rules”, you and yours would have jumped all over me.

The rules are, indeed ,according to Hamlet (sorry mate), comparable to Shakespearian advice. Good old conservative English thinking there. I could pick some of those rules to pieces but what the f*ck would I know. Most are clearly are sit down rules. I do try to live by the good ones which are in the Bible also.

But then what the f*ck do you lot know either. You need the words of a Democrat, homosexual, leftie, Muslim, immigrant, blackfella, liberal, and so on to be connected a to a form of identity to kick your prejudices and bigotry into gear. The Liberals have you all conned into making face value assessments and judgements. Come on retrospective experts time to exercise that prejudice. (Templar)
Posted by rancitas, Friday, 3 March 2006 4:02:17 PM
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On a global scale Australia is a little tin-pot economy that gets blown along in the international economic breeze. The best any Oz govt can hope is to soften the blows. Sorry about the mangled metaphors.

Howard is still where he is because he's been lucky enough to reign while the world economy was strong (refer to enormous and growing trade deficits in Western nations for reasons to abandon smugness - ours is alarming) and because timely scary things have fallen into his lap (all those scary children in the water pre-election).

Eventually the political pendulum will swing back the other way and the current batch of happy Howard supporters will be whining from the sidelines about Labor. Let's hope for their sake that voters remember the consequences of anybody having the majority in both houses
Posted by chainsmoker, Friday, 3 March 2006 4:14:45 PM
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It is not so Chainsmoker.Our country prospered under the Howard Govt when the the Asian Tigers failed and prospered again when the US went into recession along with Europe.

It was no accident,it was good economic management.We should now be into our second recession if Labor were in power.That is the hard core reality.
Posted by Arjay, Friday, 3 March 2006 6:29:49 PM
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No Ran, you are seriously mistaken. And thank you for engaging this little Dingbat et al. Ha
There is no need to label anyone, as some of those who progress in Psychological manipulation, they do this by them selves; this is what is called the left. Or any that have plans to control who-what- and when. This is the nature of less able intelligence and the lazy that plan ways to manipulate. In days gone by, it is by force. As I said to Azilis on another thread. Read this link: Seriously, Ran Read it; http://majorityrights.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/22/

You are not of that Ilk, perhaps misguided, but you still have an Independent mind and the ability to achieve. A bit Fiery and what you have provided already in information, suggests some what confused. Believe in your self and do not depend on others
If it is someone’s intention to Lie-deceive- or state untruths, then there is a purpose for it: Usually it is for their gain and to deprive you of your earnt effort, or to use your mind to progress their cause, thus this, the progeny of thieves.
And as this link states. The reversal of Information and deception for “political reasoning” (Crime) emanates from this group; http://majorityrights.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/83/
And has progressed into Philosophy, and is an underpinning principle of corrupt conduct and intent. You would know the Latin terminology for co-vert act and Done in the open?
I will help with initials ( A R) and ( M R).
And next time , take your car to a Mechanic.
Posted by All-, Friday, 3 March 2006 7:48:36 PM
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What a great load of unsubstantiated piffle Arjay
Prove your assertions.
It is also interesting to note that you use the word 'reality' when you really mean 'my opinion'
Posted by Robin J, Friday, 3 March 2006 7:52:16 PM
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Now Robinj is denying that the runs are on the board.Well let's do a little history lesson.

Gough was an economic vandal who spent like there was no tomorrow.He initiated the "Nanny State".So today we have 540,000 unemployed,700,000 on dubious disability pensions and 330,000 single parents to support.Why is there no money for infrastructure,mentally ill and people who are genuinely ill?Have a look at the socialist state created by Labor that saps our motivation.

Labor destroyed the Victorian economy back in 1992 and thus Jeff Kennet had to sell off every asset to put their economy back in the black.Their economy under the Bracks Govt is slowly going backwards.Remember the Keating recession we all had to have?Govts don't call the shots on interest rates but they create the environment for their change.

After 10yrs NSW under a Labor lead Bob Carr is an absolute shamozzle.In every criterion of Govt responsibility,they have failed.Now after 10yrs of the Howard Govt our economy [with the exception of NSW]is getting stronger.

The problem with Labor Socialists Govts is that they appeal to the weaknesses in our communities rather than the discipline and courage to achieve.We have become a weak and pathetic society and with the economic might of China looming on the horizon we'd better do some homework on how to compete.

There is a lot I don't like about the Howard Govt,but the alternative isn't worth a cursory glance.
Posted by Arjay, Friday, 3 March 2006 8:31:54 PM
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Now that is more like it Arjay.
However Howard has just had 10 years to 'fix' all the assertions in your first paragraph! So perhaps you should start blaming him for those now!
I have no argument with your second and third paras.
The 'problem' with a Labor Socialist Government is that it does care about the ever widening gap between the have's and the have-not's. It does care about a fair go for all Australians. It does care about a more equitable distribution of the wealth of this country. Unfortunately some people will never have your ' discipline and courage to achieve' There will always be no hopers and non-employables etc. at the bottom of society, Perhaps you and Howard prefer to just let them die?
Finally I must agree with you that 'the alternative isn't worth a cursory glance' (at the moment). However I still maintain that Lyn Allison's summary of the Howard years is absolutely correct. Perhaps I will vote Democrat in the Senate next time!
Posted by Robin J, Friday, 3 March 2006 9:20:44 PM
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Its as simple as this. You are underestimating the intelligence of the Australian populace and overestimating your own. In fact the lack of insight evidenced in the article just sends the message that your judgement is poor.

Its you and your ilk who are the REAL propagandists using every half issue to push your own barrow. The Australian public is too clever to be fooled by your emotional rhetoric.

What we notice is that John Howard is not the whingeing carping complaining politician that you and your colleagues are and that's why he is attractive to rational Aussies. Unlike yourself, he RARELY denigrates a fellow politician and replies logically to questions.

Aussies won't vote for overly emotional sore losers. Maybe John Howard is a better person than you realise, certainly even more trustworthy than you and your colleagues and certainly less harsh in his ways.

I'm sorry you can't see this
Posted by Atman, Friday, 3 March 2006 10:03:42 PM
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I,d have to be wondering why our debt is $107,000 per person wouldnt i,wouldnt you,how much was it for the preceding ten years and before that.And as far as who you vote for just remember the people voted for Malcolm when he still had his hand on the knife in Goughs back so dont start bragging about who knows what .That kind of elderly clever sensible conservativeness angle youve got going on just makes me believe the girl more and further gives strength to what this girl is saying.And i can tell you the most of what she is saying rings preety true the only bits that dont are of things im just not into so cant say but she was on the money for more of the time that she wasnt, just like us all sometimes when we are emtionall and passionate about a subject and are still developing the goodness in ourselves and hopefully throwing out the bad crop or is it crap it,s just part of what we all hopefullly will do (-'> anyway,whos having a good day hope you all are cheers the son
Posted by terry and son, Saturday, 4 March 2006 12:03:21 AM
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It's hard to disagree with some of the more strident posts here. I reckon that this is a faint, a dog whsitle to the faithful. I'm not a big fan of the Democrats but I'm drawn to this ridiculous honesty.

It reads like undergraduate stuff and not a critique, but lord knows that touches a few bases with me. She should concentrate on the the centre. That's where they're goin to get get the votes.

It also reads like a dog whistle. All dogs wheel left! But I don't reckon that's their strategy. I could be wrong but I reckon they've hired a hit man who's doin the strategy. He's an absolute prick if I've got it right.

Cher
Posted by Cheryl, Saturday, 4 March 2006 12:18:37 AM
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Wow Cher whose hired the hitman?

The Democrats? Couldn't imagine it.

I could imagine them getting someone who wants to get back to their core values. Where the members have more say, where policy doesn't seem to be invented on the run.

The Democrats have some really decent people as their members I have met a few. There are some who even want to take the party away from just a senate party and actually go and get some seats in the House of Reps. Wow wouldn't that be a change from the cosy Senate benches. Of course seeing would be believing and it would be much easier with Natasha as the boss.

Of course the Senators would have to make some core promises to get them back to their core values. Do they like negotiating just a bit much? I wonder if they have actually thought of saying NO! once in a while? They seemed a pretty reasonable party for a long while.

Surely you couldn't mean the Democrats?

Has Johnny helped them somewhat with his work in the Senate?... Has Kim helped them from being the opposition leader? Has the t-shirt from the Greens helped them? I guess all they need is to get more Aussies to give them another go.

I'm not a Democrats voter anyway so what would I know?

Is there a middle still? I thought we were so far to the right these days that we may fall off the flat earth...lol Even Mal Fraser reckons the Libs no longer have liberal values. Do Labor have labor values?

I'd love to see a strong third party... but can the Dems be forgiven?

Is anyone willing to change their vote these days?
Posted by Opinionated2, Saturday, 4 March 2006 1:02:37 AM
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Ho hum, another leftist wishing to blame the Lib's for winning. Who else are Australians going to vote for, the ALP, they can't even organise their own parliamentary wing.
Another example of the academic elite, only they can see Howard's methods for only they are so intelligent, as opposed to the masses who are oh so ignorant.
Keep whingeing and not working and you will see another ten years of conservative rule.
Posted by PFH, Saturday, 4 March 2006 6:54:10 AM
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All- You are an irresponsible person. You do not represent the majority of Australians. Why? I visited the threads you suggested and am confronted with a cat aiming a automatic rifle out a window with a telescopic lens onto a street. I have faith that the majority of Australians would be appalled at a website that is so obscene. And you expect me to take your patronising nonsense dressed up as friendly advice seriously. That is behaviour of a jackal and John Howard and his Liberal mob should stand up to extremists like you instead of pandering to the right to get there vote.

Re: your earlier post in another language. Why another language? You hypocrite you and your mob jump up and down because a few refugees and immigrants are having trouble learning English and you deliberatly use another language to get your rocks off. They have a valid reason - you All- have no excuse.

One last thing: Re: that blog. No All- your problem is your nose is too close to your bum.
Posted by rancitas, Saturday, 4 March 2006 1:24:53 PM
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Allow me to to over-simplify here, and to borrow from behavioural science: we vote for a party/leader largely because we (perhaps unknowingly?) succumb to the biological drive to reflect our own mind out loud: we want a father/authority figure to lead our dog-pack. We need a tough leader who will impose order upon the pack and who will savagely lead us, through the wilderness to the red meat.

Given that they've obviously all voted this way so frequently, John Howard/the Libs must be a reflection of the average Aussie. So, yes, that makes the average Aussie a modest fascist, a self-concerned, short-term-biased, aspirational mongrel, of limited conscience and with a good dose of narcissism. Go on, admit it, you love being a closet bastard.

In the end, those with more left-inspired sympathies (social equity, respect for rights, concern for one's neighbours, an altruistic love of education and the arts, pro-choice, for separation of church and state, etc) may be 'right', but the dog-pack's self interest with filling its belly will probably win out any day over prinicipled concerns for the greater good of the race, the planet and to posterity/our inheritors.

John Howard is not the problem: we are the problem. Australians live in a privileged world, borne aloft by Mother Earth's bounty of coal, iron, wheat and sheep. We spend the profits therefrom on plasma LCD screens and 4 wheel drives. Of course we are going to vote for a pack-leader that flatters our own biases and prejudices.

Hey, the boat's not sinking today, so we must be doing nothing wrong yet, correct? One day, the bill will come due, we just don't care too much to be reminded of it. Howard voters will then live in the world that Howard's legacy (and their own narcissism) leaves to them. I hope they will remember to not complain then, and to keep thinking what they've always thought. "She'll be right, mate."
Posted by When_The_Going_Gets_Weird, Saturday, 4 March 2006 2:00:07 PM
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Opinionated 2,
I believe there is a centre in politics, how you find it is to go left 100 klm's from the Liberal Party, and 99 klms' left of the Labor Party, and there is is the middleground. I too long for a centre party to fill the void.

Some of the left's ideas appeal to me, however I would really enjoy the best of both worlds, a party of balance, consisting of left, right and centre, with an emphasis on centre. However we have seen attemps at beginning a new party before, New Labour, One Nation etc, they get off the ground, then fall on their face. I believe the only way for reasonable, rationable people to change the current situation is to join their favoured party and work from within to pull them back from the brink.
Posted by SHONGA, Saturday, 4 March 2006 3:29:40 PM
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You are offended by Little Yassa Ali-cat, you are further advanced than I thought;

How many cats in one day do you see running around with fire arms? did you see the Sardinian cat in his frog suit ? After all, it is a Multi Culti society? Fairdinkum Ran, if you can only look at pictures and are unable to read, you should have said something to save the embarrassment. The Continued expletives denote some activity . The other Language is Latin, and I am not telling you , find out your self. I can not be bothered after that Dummy Spit about nothing.
Good one Shonga.
Posted by All-, Saturday, 4 March 2006 7:01:18 PM
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PFH,

You sound like a very disgruntled ex-labor voter...

I agree with you the opposition is weak... but it seems to be improving. They are at least having a go.

The cleverness of John Howard was to get the one nation voters to come across to him thereby giving up their hopes of some radical change in society. Not that I agreed with One Nation but that is what happened.

One Nation voters are now back in the fold. Most of them don't even realise they were tricked to get back into line...lol Queue here, One Nation voters and they queued up in droves. When Pauline was around at least they were trying to make a difference... maybe in the wrong direction at times but they were at least participating.

Politicians by nature have to manipulate situations to get what they desire... John Howard is very adept at this practise. But there is nothing "left" or "elitest" in pointing this out. They are just facts.

Read more on the AWB scandal.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18339010%255E7583,00.html

Shonga, I like you would love to see a middle party that represents the average Aussie. I have never belonged to a political party or voted a particular way because I want to remain independent. I wish that by joining a party one could change them from the inside but I'm afraid that is not the nature of parties. They always have egotistical politicions in charge. The come the egotistical advisors ... and way way back come the poor little members.

Look at many of the people who have posted here. Many have probably voted one way all their lives. They have never seen a reason to change. Wow! Illegal Wars, Inproper Ministerial Conduct, Inproper behaviour, Corruption, Lies, Broken promises won't make them change.

If only people could step back from their biases and see that parties are no different to them. In a party they vote along party lines and as individuals they vote along party lines also. So much for thinking!

WTTGW : Good post it is our own fault!
Posted by Opinionated2, Saturday, 4 March 2006 7:48:52 PM
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Atman
In my opinion Lyn Allison's summary of the Howard years is accurate.
You can't seem to stay on the argument or respect another's right to an opinion. These are primary democratic principles.
You waste words with your personal attacks.
I respect your right to disagree but I have no time for your childish personal outbursts.
It is pointless attempting a sensible dialogue with you.
Good luck
Posted by Robin J, Saturday, 4 March 2006 8:00:23 PM
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Hey Rancitas,

I reckon there is good and bad in everyone. I haven't bothered with this thread because the author needs a large dose of balance. No no no! Not balance of power...

The Russian bloke: The least educated but best of the Russian classic writers. The first comment a fact, the second an opinion shared by many including me. He has great irony, dark humour and earthy expression. I think you'd enjoy his short stories especially his 'Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk'.
Posted by keith, Sunday, 5 March 2006 9:58:55 AM
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John Howard sticks in your collective craw because he is the consumate politician.He knows the reality and plays the same game under the same rules as Labor,Democrats or the nutter Greens.

We keep re-electing him and his party because economically they keep producing the results.Labor in the past have not,and as far as NSW goes at a state level goes Labor are an absolute disaster.The Democrats are a bunch of Communists dressed up in free enterprise garb.They aspire to Swedens model of 30% GST and a Govt that dictates how much you can earn and you'll still need permission to go to the toilet once you've paid your taxes.

The Democrats are the real con-artists since they aspire to stifle the spirit in the guise of protecting the rights of the individual.
Posted by Arjay, Sunday, 5 March 2006 8:07:31 PM
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Gee Arjay.... Are you a political analyst?

From what I have read they have the most Democratic structure of all parties. So they must be Democratic Communists with rightist, leftist leanings.

Give your typing fingers a rest Arjay....

If you actually believe what you typed might I suggest you see a Doctor... Are you missing a cow or two from the top paddock?

It's fine to defend your Little Johnny but to suggest there are "Reds" under Democrat beds... is the funniest thing I have heard in years. Why don't you ring Johnny Howard and inform him? He'd like to know I'm sure.

Are you a sit down comedian?.....lol
Posted by Opinionated2, Sunday, 5 March 2006 10:25:40 PM
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Here here Arjay.

Tell it like it is.

If Lyn Allison has not got food for thought out of this, there is something wrong.

Can you see the failings and misconceptions out there? We dont want political parties bagging eachother, we WANT TO KNOW ABOUT YOU. Stop throwing stones, it has worked for many years but todays society is different, more informed, and so immune to the constant degrading of the Government and their 'terrible actions' that all your slander and shots are not listened to.

Try working only on your own party, if you want to comment on an issue, comment on how you would do it better, not how bad the party/person/decision is. If you take away your negative demeaner, realise that propoganda, fear and liberal bashing do not work in convincing Australians of a better alternative government, you may see support.

Tell us about you. Now, i know little about you democrats, but i know you hate John howard. How can i vote for you? Why are politicians so detached from how normal people think?

A new party will rise as every other major party is rigid and has burnt the majority of its could be voters. By being democratic, not defaming, you may gain support.

Good Luck
Posted by Realist, Monday, 6 March 2006 12:17:59 PM
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Realist,

Whilst I agree that bagging politicians doesn't really work it is always hard for the smaller parties to get air time. You as a realist should know that.

The main stream media are focused on Liberal and Labor and it forces the others to find new ways to get their message across.

There is no good news media outlet when it comes to politics. Even oppositions don't get as much coverage as they should ... afterall it is their job to question the incumbents. Unless you have a massive issue like the alleged AWB scandal most people are too busy to care.

Realist I agree that people want to know more about parties but what platforms can the Dems (for example) use to get their message out when the media won't pick that up.

That is why Natasha was good for the Dems... she had a public profile and was out there in other forms of the media. She was even criticised for that and yet she was being proactive.

I'm not a Dems voter but I too can be realistic and see the difficulty they have as a small party.

Catchya
Posted by Opinionated2, Monday, 6 March 2006 12:35:55 PM
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Opinionated,

Fair call in some respects, but you know as well as i do that there are plenty of ways to think outside the square for media attention. Comments are asked for when the representative is in front of them, most of the time the media do not know what the incoming comment will be, but if succinctly worded you can both increase your standing, whilst showing the failings of the government with little negativity.

You dont have to bark and bite to be a bull dog, you can lick and smile yet get the same result.

Get your profile out there, it is not hard even with little resources when you have a history and brandwidth like the democrats have.

Get people to respect and value your comments, rather than 50% of people who are liberal voters scoffing at them, 30% may agree but doubt you, and 20% agree entirely.

If you offerred constructive (even condascending at times if you feel) advice to the government on a regular basis as a mother or big brother, rather than bag them, you would show that as an Australian and a politician you are committed to a better Australia, and you will raise your esteem with the people, whilst illustrating your ability as an alternative government.

If the government does not accept your continued help and advice over the course of term and they fail, watch out you may become the prefferred and only logical option when looking for inevitable change as we will in a few years.

They may pinch your ideas whatever, if they implement them, it shows that you are making Australia a better place. Well done.

A change is needed. Dont listen to this if you like, but at this stage you have no point of difference and no reason for Australia to embrace you.

Work towards the next election, reinvent yourselves, you need it.
Posted by Realist, Monday, 6 March 2006 12:55:34 PM
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John Howard happens to be the most brilliant politician we've had for many years.

It's just that he has no redeeming features.
Posted by bennie, Monday, 6 March 2006 3:15:04 PM
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Yes Lyn you are Right 10 Years is a long time for J-Howard or any-one=else as-P-M......but what are the Achievements ZERO-?
he has been beating his chest for the last 10 Years -but i think he is a very Weak-Man-im many Ways-never mind is running in Kirribilly
About Iraq-did the P-M ever invited his 2-Sons and Daughter -to Go and fight the War in Iraq-?-Have a good Day
Posted by ozevic, Monday, 6 March 2006 8:36:04 PM
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Yes 10 Years for any Administration is far to long -J-Howard in 10-Years has done far to much damage to the Fabric of this Country it will take a very long time to-undo the Damage -if the P-M-had real Concern and Vision for Australia and the People of Australia he would have at least triyed to introduce 4-Years fix-Term -Parliament 10 Years is more like DICTATORSHIP in any one-Language i am not sure what is Happening to the People-Very concerned Citizen,,
Posted by ozevic, Tuesday, 7 March 2006 2:14:36 PM
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Arjay,
Mate are you an expert, or do you keep voting for Bonsai because you are as bereft of ideas as he is? If you are an expert Tory supporter, could you please number from 1-10 what you consider to be his top infastructure contributions to the nation over the last 10 years, I'll start you off:

1. Adelaide to Darwin railway

2.

3.

etc, I will then list my top 5 in the negative, let's see how we compare.
Posted by SHONGA, Tuesday, 7 March 2006 8:01:58 PM
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Shonga the biggest areas of reform that no party currently has the courage to face is that of tax i.e. simplification,eliminating churning,reducing the burden on the worker;getting the bludgers off social security and reform of our so called free Medical services.Rich people should not have access to free medical services nor should the poor just be able to rock up to a Doctor for free because they have a runny nose,or be it some pensioner that is feeling lonely and wants a chat.It is just wasteful.There are real solutions ,but there are too many powerful self interest groups who want a free ride.I see the other major issue is that of reform of our Public Services both Federal and State.They are both wasteful and burden on the private system that produces wealth.We also need to get the litter gation lawyers under control to reduce workers comp and public liability claims.

The Howard Govt is still a very socialists Govt.They have spent more on this area as a percentage of GDP than any other Govt because they have grown the economy and collected more tax through the GST;yet our Labor State Govts seem never to have enough.

Now if Labor or the Democrates had the courage to face the real issues,then they would get our votes.There would be more money for the mentally ill,infrastructure etc and as the economy grows more time for ordinary folk to enjoy their lives instead of being slaves to a wasteful system.It isn't rocket science,we just lack the will and the courage.

If Labor and the Democrats confronted the real issues they would be in power at the next election,but instead they want to skirt around the real issues telling us of our rights and how to get a free ride.
Posted by Arjay, Tuesday, 7 March 2006 10:45:42 PM
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Comments: What a sad indictment of a failed leader in a rapidly failing political party. Lyn Allison's use of all that is worst about the left in Australian politics showed why the Democrats have failed so miserably over the last 10 years.

What has turned out to be years of plenty for Australian Conservatives has been a famine for Australia's would be left wing social democrats. Up come all the old accusations of dog whistling, clever use of of propaganda, fear mongering and more.

What has happened to the sense of vision in the left?

Perhaps Clive Hamilton was right after all. The left has failed the Australian people. In their nightmarish world of Australian racism, bigotry and intolerance all fostered, of course, by John Howard, ably supported by a tamed and obedient media, the Australian people have been conned by the little con artist living in the Lodge!

The evidence for all this? Lyn Allison directs us to Wikipedia for a definition of propaganda and to the often incoherent ramblings of Ross Gittens. Thankfully Ms Allison had the good sense not to refer us to the mental meandering of Phillip Adams but that would have been far too obvious.

Let's take a look at Wikipedia. Its reputation in such matters of poitical discourse is already sullied and Ross Gittens is hardly someone to rely on for objective analysis.

The Australian Democrats had a valuable tradition of keeping the bastards honest but the lefties who found the policy vacuum too tempting to resist have brought about its collapse and eventual demise. Their sense of reason, intelligence and fair play having deserted them they have reaped what they have sown. To now blame it on John Howard simply reinforces the verdict the Australian public has passed on them. The Democrats have become irrelevant and have lost their reason for existance.

Perhaps Lyn Allison's tirade against Conservatives will be remembered as one last shrill scream before the expiring political corpse breathed its last desparate breath.
Posted by aussieyank, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 2:07:01 AM
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J-Howard-Brilliant-polititian-more like Oppurtunistic-i say-?-is Achievements-ZERO--Immigration in Disgrace -No-Tax-reform -he gave us the GST-but we still pay all the Taxes as usual-Aborigenes still live in Worst Conditions than 3d World Countries-Just take a trip Around Australia -Nearly a Million Children live in the Streets of Australian Cities -Poverty on the rise -Education System not in very good Shape -Idustrial Relations down the American Path we are involved in a War in Iraq and Afghanistan -in reality no one wil ever WIN-EtC-etc..i could Continue there are many more Reasons
Posted by ozevic, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 9:17:50 AM
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As usual, a lot of lazy and comfortable ( on both sides) references to "Tampa" and "children overboard". But hello - what about the 353 dead people on SIEV X on Howard's watch in waters we were pstrolling? ? Does anybody care to remember that particular incident ? Don;t those deaths matter in the balance sheet of the Howard years? ? Or is it a forbidden memory - all too black, too disturbing even to remember ....?
tony kevin
Posted by tony kevin, Thursday, 9 March 2006 10:13:48 PM
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Like all truly dirty work of its kind, the 'Certain Maritime Incident' took place where no cameras could record it. Thus the 353 dead are the ultimate in faceless people, and far more easily lost to memory. It's not that people don't dare to remember - it's that the dead, though many, are mere numbers, falling into the Stalin zone: 'one death is a tragedy, 353 deaths are a statistic'. Howard knows his punters: I doubt he lost a minute's sleep worrying about the electoral consequences. And as for the morality of it ...
Posted by anomie, Friday, 10 March 2006 8:27:10 AM
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Anomie,they were Indonesian citizens and illegal immigrants in Indonesian territorial waters.What do you suggest,invade Indonesia and begin another war? You lefties have a real problem with interpreting the truth.They were the responsibility of the Indonesian Govt.Go to Jakarta and protest outside their embassy and while your there protest about the injustices on Alpha Centuari.
Posted by Arjay, Saturday, 11 March 2006 11:36:12 PM
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Arjay,

"The Howard Govt is still a very socialist Govt"... what a load of garbage...

The parties have shifted so far to the right that the middle is now the left and the true lefties are way out in ga ga land somewhere. What comes when you head right of right wing Aussie Yank? They used to say the looney left. Now we have the dumb and dumber right. Pick a fight you can't win, lie all day long, rig elections in your own country to prove democracy and get one of your buddies to pick another fight. Who will the Yanks get to do their dirty work this time?

Like the far left the far right is also dangerous ground!

The Democrats have never been a leftist party... in fact much cristicism was levelled towards them for going along with Johnny and his mates too easily. The Democratic Senators got done over by their own egos. They actually believed they were players and forgot their grass roots. Did Meg Lees and Andrew Murray have too big a say when the GST was being negotiated and did they get done over by Johnny Howard big time?

The Dems test came and went because they were too busy negotiating. I am sure they improved a lot of legislation but at times they had to just say NO.

They don't seem to understand that they negotiated too often and gave up too much. That's the problem when you focus on being a Senate party... I doubt if any of them would accept the responsibility of letting down their members and the people who always voted for them.

So after Cheryl and Meg how do your rebuild a party... especially when no-one is listeneing to you?

I doubt whether the Dems Senators could pick the issue to put them back on the front foot... and they definitely wouldn't know what tactics to use to improve their standing. They are the "Yes Boss Team" for Johhny and his boys in the minds of many and that will be hard to undo.
Posted by Opinionated2, Sunday, 12 March 2006 7:21:46 PM
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These are the real figures Opinionated.700,000 on disability pensions.You can get on a DSP for being and alcoholic or drug addict.Nearly 40% just have bad backs which are almost impossible to be disproven.330,000 mostly sinlgle mothers,some who make a career out of collecting Govt handouts.540,000 on the dole and numerous students who collect living away from home allowences while they live their parents.Now this does not include old age pensioners who should be getting a greater share of taxation.

So this is not socialism?There are only 8 million who work in private enterprise to support all this nonsense and many of these are part time female workers who have to work to support their families.

As soon as the Howard Govt tries to break this cycle you lot scream victim status.Well who are the real victims?It is the hard workers who have to work extra hours and pay extra taxes to support the bludgers that the left whingers like you have cultivated.Most people work out of necessity,not because they love it! Many of these lay abouts haven't been given the discipline at a young age to develop skills or have the education to be useful to anyone and thus expect the rest of us owe them a living!

So put up or shut up Opinionated,those of us in the real world know the truth and most Govts including the Howard Govt don't have the the political will to put and end to the nonsense that Gough Whitlam initiated;because there are votes in keeping people beholding to Govt handouts.The Howard Govt is more socialists than labor because they have grown the economy,raised more taxes through the GST and expanded the socialists state while playing lip service to being tough.Now IR reforms are another matter.I don't agree with some of their reforms.
Posted by Arjay, Monday, 13 March 2006 10:13:00 PM
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Well Arjay, if they are the figures and I'd like the sources of your figures just for my own benefit then you make a point worth considering...

Many families are doing it tough in Australia for a multitude of reasons. I have a bad back... do two spinal fractures count?... but I'm not on any benefits... Arjay a crook back can be very debilitating so don't just accuse them of all being fakes, plus if you consider drug addiction an illness as I do then I can accept them being covered whilst under treatment. Obviously they should get back to work as soon as they are well again.

I object to being called a whinging lefty though... and I can't recall playing the victim card ... but if you say I did it must be right. Actually you can call me a whinging lefty victim anytime if you want...lol I can take it...lol You'd be wrong but hey freedom of expression is a wonderful thing. Ha!

I can't argue with you ... if you are right... John Howard must be a socialist and as we all know socialism doesn't work. God we got a socialist Govt and were never told... Those socialists are tricky devils.

I can't see too many socialist traits in the man myself but hey if you see them then that is fine.

Our little Johnny may have a heart afterall ... not that I'm a socialist, I'm a capitalist (just reassuring you) ... he's a kind generous man who protects the workers by taking away their rights, by giving tax cuts to the rich and takes us to war based on "faulty intelligence", and he defames and villifies refugees by saying that they threw their kids overboard when they apparently didn't.

I wonder why none of the refugees sued him personally for defamation of character? Afterall he did allegedly say it outside parliament and they were in Australian waters under Australian Law.

So I totally accept your point... John Howard is a socialist for his own political purposess.
Posted by Opinionated2, Monday, 13 March 2006 11:14:14 PM
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hello J-Howard Brilliant politician ? Great Liar i think ? he is not telling the Australian People the Truth at any times Ever he treats the Australian People with Disregard and Arrogance he tells us that he is doing the right thing-he is always right all the others are Permanently Wrong it will take a Generation to Correct the Situation in Australia if ever it will Happen that is the Legacy of Honest Jonny Good Luck
Posted by ozevic, Thursday, 30 March 2006 9:10:37 AM
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