Froggie,totally agree.If I were God,I too would want people to have the courage to think for themselves.I would find it disgusting that mortals suck up to me in an orgy of power lust and thought control.

This new Muslim facism is no different from that of Adolph Hitler and the lunatic left don't have the courage to face what they have cultivated.They will bring in religious anti-vilification laws to keep a temporary peace and slowly destroy free speech.Govts would very soon ride on the back of these laws and become dictator ships.

No religion or belief system should have special dispensations from public scrutiny becuase there are no absolute truths in a world that requires courage,tenacity and love.

Froggie,
I am a devout and practising Christian, and I totally agree with your last post.
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God does not need defending, nor Jesus Christ for that matter as Jesus faithfully represented Him as a God who does not enforce religious laws upon those that dissagree or blaspheme his name. They are held accountable for their attitudes after death when the sum of their life stands before the Evaluator of character.

When one is incapable of mounting a winning case for their faith they can only resort to threats of violence. Muslims are brainwashed fanatics when it comes to their living in a democratic society. They cannot accomodate difference. Mohamet in his early life was devout but in his later life became fanatical and irrational. He admitted he sinned forty times a day so it is evident he was not the perfect little saint some try to paint of him. Most of his sins were in how he treated unbelievers.

Muslims cannot mount a reasonable defence to establish Mohamet was truly a prophet of God. He was not in the same league as the Christ son of Mary of whom Mohamet said was sinless. When Jesus was reviled he prayed God forgive them for they do not know what they do. This with spikes through his hands and feet suspended from a Roman cross.

What did Mohamet do to those that reviled him? Murdered them in the name of Allah. He represented a different God to the one Christ declared. Early Christians learned to survive in a hostile religious environment. A Sells said Christianity as Jesus taught was the end of religion and the beginning of freedom.

Actually the term religion represents laws and not a freed life, Islam as with Judaism represents submission to what they believe are the laws of Allah. They do not believe in personal freedom of choice, conviction and conscience. These are Western values influence by reformed thinking. One can only be held accountable to God if choice is a valid value.

Sorry, I believe none of that Philo. :D

As for Froggie, claiming he thinks for himself, that is a somewhat priceless moment. Thinking for yourself is a crucial step that opens you to other viewpoints. However, you can't crush that step with simplistic reasoning. Which brings me back to Froggie's statement:

"I look at what Islam is doing today, with its terrorism and threats of death, and it is enough to convince me that Islam is a dangerous and evil religion. I might add that I am an agnostic, not a subscriber to any religion."

..."I look at what Islam is doing today, with its terrorism and threats of death"
You look at what? Western media? Your imagination? Extremists? Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world, yet contradicts your statement entirely. If extremists are what you are looking at, then you can talk about them and not moderate Islam.

..."and it is enough to convince me"
Wow. Clearly like most other Westerners, you don't need much convincing, seeing as you live in a Christian country.

Why is it that people in Western nations are threatened by terrorists scattered across the globe? It's not some global conspiracy of Islam, whereby all Muslim nations are waiting in the wings to overrun the globe the moment a handful of terrorists simultaneously take over the Western world and bring it to its knees.

Is it difficult to imagine what would happen if the United States of America had been forced to partition its lands for the creation of a Muslim state in its Heartland? Don't you think it's ironic that a Christian nation created Israel on land belonging to Islamic people, land with astounding historical and religious significance for Islam?

I would agree that currently Islam has more extreme elements in the world than Christianity. However, what has given rise to these extremist elements? Cultural and geo-political factors over centuries, including the creation of Israel on 'Holy Land' and interference and instability in the Middle East over centuries. Islam -itself- is not evil and not dangerous, as claimed by Froggie and others

Steel,

"Don't you think it's ironic that a Christian nation created Israel on land belonging to Islamic people, land with astounding historical and religious significance for Islam?"

NO - Enlighten us. Who was there first in Palestine? What Legitimate claim - if any - of historical or spiritual significance has Jerusalem to islam?

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BOAZ _David,

I would have gone one better: Is Allah of the Qur'an one and the same as the God (Jehovah) of the bible as Mohammad's islam claims?

I don't think so.
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Philo,

I agree with you - keep up the good work for His Glory.

You quoted Sells: "Christianity as Jesus taught was the end of religion and the beginning of freedom."

So I ask the jury out there: what is islam exactly and where does islam fit on the religious train of thought

Steel. So 9/11 never happened- or Madrid or London, or Bali? Darfur? The Taliban, killings of and fatwas declared on writers, film-makers, death threats to cartoonists- the list goes on and on… Even here in Australia, Muslims are causing trouble.
Is it all a plot by the western media to make Islam look bad?
Heard of the following terms? Look them up if you haven't.
· Dhimmi
· Jizya tax
· Taqiyah
· Kaffur
· Jihad
· Shari’a law
Add to all this: suicide bombers, the place of women in Muslim society, hatred and persecution of minorities, and, extremely important, the fact that religion and the State are one, under Islam.

I actually don’t give a damn whether you think my view is simplistic or not. An open mind can also equate to an empty mind.

However, if you want to live in denial, go right ahead.

Israel is a huge question, impossible to cover in this forum with its limitations. You talk about a “Christian nation created Israel on land belonging to Islamic people”.
Which Christian nation would that be, all knowing one? You’ve obviously never heard of Zionism or the “Stern Gang”. Look it up in Wikipedia.
The Jews (Zionists) created Israel, no one else.
As for your silly proposition about the USA being forced to “partition its lands for the creation of a Muslim state in its Heartland”, there was no previous settlement of Muslims in the USA, so the situation is not the same as that of Israel.
Indonesia- hmmm. Tell me more about how Indonesia contradicts me. Heard of East Timor? Aceh? Jemaah Islamiyah ring any bells?

Steel said:

[a Christian nation created Israel on land belonging to Islamic people, land with astounding historical and religious significance for Islam?]

The concept 'belonging' is a flexible one. Today you have it, tomorrow you dont. Why ? well that's what makes the world go around, "power". In the case of Israel, the Muslims who formerly HAD the power under or allied with the Ottomans, no longer did. Well stiff cheddar, welcome to the world.

Some history. Any observer of this field will know that one has to look back much further than 1948 to correctly understand this area.

Abraham-> Isaac-> Jacob (Israel)-> 12 sons-> 12 Tribes-> Promised Land

Then the nation grew, and we had all the kings etc. Exiles and restorations, and finally the exile forced by the Romans in AD 70.

Thereafter we have a hotch potch of Arabs filtering in here and there.
Now..'belonging' is as much an accident of History as anything. Even if you don't subscribe to the Abrhamic covenant "this land will be a dwelling place for your descendants for all time" you are still left with the issue of the to-ing and fro-ing of power balances.

So, lets get off this 'Arab land/Muslim land' thing once and for all.

We are all displaced/dispossessed people or their decendants, we all have to get over it.

Now..your final illusory dream "Islam itself" is not violent.

I challenge that absolutely. You saying this is more suggestive of a serious case of brain management/washing. The usual mantra of Muslims is this: '

To glorify Allah and spread Islam as EXEMPLIFIED by our holy prophet Mohammed.

Now steel,

all you have to do is look through the well documented hadith and Quran verses shown by Kactuz to find the truth about this evil man.
I could add much more, in context, properly interpreted and indisputable.
Mohammed was: violent, murderous,torture inclined, and sexually promiscuous. (Captive girls, daughter in law, 9 yr old)
You call this man a prophet ? good grief. I pity you.
We can go nose to nose on each of those points if you like.