Meg, nobody around the world lobbies against women having rights to
family planning, like the Vatican does. As a good little church going Catholic, you clearly don't have a clue what the Vatican gets
up to. Some people do monitor what they get up to. Here is one of
them :http://www.population-security.org/index_of_issues.htm

It comes back to the same old thing. The Vatican is cornered with its infallability of the pope story. So they plod on relentlessly and a small amount of Catholics (20%) take them seriously, the rest
don't. Even half of Catholic priests don't agree with the Vatican on this one.

Next the sustainability issue. Telling people to breed like rabbits,
which websites for the pro life movement are doing, is totally irresponsible in today's world. If 6.5 billion can't live sustainably, 10 billion or 15 billion will make it tragic.
Thats the problem with religious dogma, its limits people in taking a more balanced and informed view.

You still havent provided us with any evidence that a 12 week old fetus is a person with a developed brain, so its not a baby or a child. Its a lump of dividing cells. You have also provided no good reason, other then religious dogma, for suggesting why aborting an organism is a problem.

Mjpb Re your puerile attempt to vilify and claim “hate” is my motive.

What seems to evade your grasp is this

“Catholics” (as congregants) are individual people

“Catholic Priesthood” are another category of individual people

“The Catholic Church” is an organization managed and maintained by the “Catholic Priesthood”.

(Just as people own shares in a company but that company is a separate “entity” to them)

Similarly, a “catholic” is an individual and a separate entity to the “Catholic Church”

So, show me where I have ever suggested I dislike “Catholics” (let alone “hate”) because they are “Catholics”.

I have the capacity, which you appear to lack, to distinguish between a member of a group and the group itself (mind you ‘socialist’ consistently tend to display a similar deficiency, seeking, essentially, “co-dependence” in their relationships).

Hence, you seek interference from the Church, just as socialists seek interference from the state, instead of recognizing the worth, value and uniqueness of yourself. You avoid taking responsibility for yourself as an individual. You have subjugated your spirit to the will of the Pope and thus, you avoid ever achieving your full potential.

That is Sad.

But it explains why the Catholic Church has sustained itself as a tyranny.
Why you would seek to criticize my dissent and manipulate what I say because you cannot deal with reality.
You demand we all subjugate our individual selves to the single will of the Pope.
You demand we all enter a relationship of co-dependency with the Church.

Almost all religious organizations do a similar thing, it is how they get their “power”.

Recognizing the dangers of “co-dependency” is not “hateful”.

It is threatening to those who have a “co-dependent” disposition, because it undermines their deluded faith in a “comfort zone”.

God made people as individuals.
Respect that individuality or you will loose the best that we all can bring to life.
Every human advance and development was achieved by an “individual”.

Co-dependency demands repression of individuality and the spirit which produces individual growth and fulfillment.

RCC demands what I hate, "co-dependency and suppression of the individual"!

“ puerile attempt to vilify and claim “hate” is my motive.”

I am not being silly or vicious. It is unusual to find such comments directed toward someone that you don’t hate.

What seems to evade your grasp is this … So, show me where I have ever suggested I dislike “Catholics” (let alone “hate”) because they are “Catholics”.

“… following the Catholic herd, like dumb sheep” “Catholic indoctrinated frigid hang-ups” These demeaning comments are at the least disrespectful.

“As for your suggestion “You need to get out more and meet some of us” – why would I wish to meet and mix with those who would rant on with their demented gibberish, condemn me for my views, excommunicate me or in years past burn me as a heretic?”
This sounds rather hostile.

Re: member of organization vs organization

Sure an organization is a separate entity at law but it isn’t a biological person. It is made up of the people. The Catholic Church is a collection of priests and lay people. It is not a bunch of shareholders making money. It is a group of people with a faith.

“…Hence, you seek interference from the Church …”

I accept the role of the Church because I believe that is God’s will. I don’t devalue myself or feel less of a person than someone who wants to play God themselves.


”… Why you would seek to criticize my dissent and manipulate what I say because you cannot deal with reality. “

Re: manipulate. See above.
Re: criticize. I am criticising your comments because you make vile inaccurate comments about a group trying to follow God. Further the emphasis is on a subgroup of people who dedicate their lives to helping their fellow humans who don’t deserve vicious inaccurate rumours being propagated against them. I consider that to be unfair at the least and I become concerned when someone undermines Christian work by slandering the workers.

”Every human advance and development was achieved by an “individual”.”
working in a co-dependent relationship with family and society.

Meg1 my grasp of the dangers or abortion vs pregnancy for maternal health are sound. You can't always find what you want on Google and its quite easy to force your articles to the front of the Google search engine.

Why, pray tell, do you quote US statistics to the Australian situation?

Most inhabitants in the United States have access to a vastly inferior and more expensive health system than any Australian. Thus the health outcomes for United States women are more third world than first world because such a high proportion have no health insurance thus very limited access to medical attention.

‘Meg, nobody around the world lobbies against women having rights to
family planning, like the Vatican does.’ Yabby, the Catholic Church teaches Natural Family Planning (giving equal responsibility to both partners)…they were the first to do so and continue to provide the latest and safest methods available…you should refrain from voicing your ignorance.

You refuse to investigate any proof offered and your assertions re: ‘breeding like rabbits’ only confirms your crass ignorance and unwillingness to face reality. The Churches support poorer nations too, children and adults…do you suggest they abandon these people and support your evolving relatives instead?

RE: sustainability, if there was more equity and less corruption (including in the environmental movement) there would be NO starvation, land degradation, poverty, lack of water and problems for sustaining all life would be overcome. However, while political parties and the environmental movement are so dependent on transnational corporate monies, inequities and controls on individuals will remain and result in the crass inequities and cruelties that also see abortion as a lucrative money-maker by corporations and supported by their ill-informed lackeys.

Col, there’s a 350 word limit, so it’s impossible to include all your examples of hatred towards Catholics.

Would you welcome the marriage of one of your daughters to a practicing Catholic and her conversion? So much for choice or tolerance and still no response.

As for your verbal diatribe on co-dependency, you’ve again contradicted your own argument.

Whether you like it or not, you’re co-dependent on this planet…even Yabby would agree with that. If you mess up others suffer too, if you put your hand up to help another human being in difficulty, there is a ripple effect too. The fact that you are breathing air that the tree beside you will photosynthesize for your use again, means you are a co-dependent.

Your lack of positive contribution to these threads and your arrogant and pitiful attempts attacking writers instead of arguments, confirms your sorry lack of ability or factual content.

Billie – Australian stats, not US…1 abortion from 4 pregnancies – fact!

RU486 - NO Aust stats – unavailable here…

Meg you might be a good little Catholic, but half the time you are unsure what your own church teaches lol. This is what the whole shebang is about:

"In 1968, Pope Paul VI issued his landmark encyclical letter Humanae Vitae
(Latin, "Human Life"), which reemphasized the Church's constant teaching that it
is always intrinsically wrong to use contraception to prevent new human beings
from coming into existence.

Contraception is "any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act
[sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its
natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render
procreation impossible" (Humanae Vitae 14). This includes sterilization, condoms
and other barrier methods, spermicides, coitus interruptus (withdrawal method),
the Pill, and all other such methods"

So forget all the other noise and excuses that you try to make,
thats the problem.