I'm a middle aged woman who grew up with an American culture made schizophrenic by feminism. As a young wife I heard many voices; voices which came from the feminist movement and voices from the family of women who came before me; telling me to have a career; my husband wanted me to stay home and take care of the household; cater to my husband, but be a slut too; that men don't cry, but if he does I should applaud his effort to be more sensitive.

I felt the pressure to be a wife, a mother, a career woman, a whore. I've been part of the struggle to have equal pay for equal work, to have autonomy over my own body, and to be taken seriously as an intelligent human being with a opinion. After at least a hundred years of female suffrage, the struggle goes on. Only now it is in a larger context. As long as there are women in this world being treated as property by men, men are necessary. Men are now free to cry, to be emotional, to be indecisive, to let a woman lead. Men are the yardstick we will continue to measure ourselves by.
Patty Jr. Satanic Feminist

I'm not sure what Jennifer is trying to say. This seems to ramble without a direction. I needed to know more about Maureen Dowd and 'Are Men Necessary'.

Doing a search (not G**@#e) gave me lots to choose from. This is good - www.slate.com/id/2129290/.

I can feel what Patty Jnr SF has said. These days many men do not know what they want. They are confused by what the media portrays and reality. They are conditioned by patriarchy and conditioned by family and peers.

Is there any truth to the idea that men marry their 'mothers'?

Certainly more work and research needs to be done to break down the hegamony of past and present sex sterotypes. I'd be interested in reading Jennifers PhD thesis.

Dear Maureen

Thank you for your article. I have not read any of Dowd's work - after reading your article, not sure that I want to. Ah then, curiosity will get the better of me.

Patty

You sound rather angry. I guess I have not met the men that you have. I have never been treated like a slut or a whore by my husband or my male frieinds. We have equal respect. We are equal.

My father and my brother have always treated me as equal to them.

I have read your post a number of times. I cannot clearly understand where you are coming from - apart from some overt bitterness towards your husband?

People earn my respect - whether they are male or female - and I have to earn their's - whether they are male of female - child or adult.

Cheers and chin up
Kay

I agree with you Kay, People earn my respecty as well and t doesnt matter what they are, man woman child, red green black purple short fat tall,bent straight rcih poor.

I believe that change was coming anyway, as equal education was imposed, so equality in other aspects followed. I remember in my first year of high school, being put in with the girls typing and domestic science classes, because I played up and wouldn't learn french or german. The aim was to disgrace me and make me look a fool. Only trouble was, I loved it and so did the girls. I learnt to type, cook, sew. Spent lots of classes with all these gourgeous women my age, just lovely.

Didn't last long, they didn't handle me enjoying it and lots of other blokes started to complain because I got so much time with the girls and everyone else had to be segregated. Now that to me is true justice and equality.

Just about every bloke I know, greatly respects the women in their lives and treats them equally. If you want to be equal in this day and age, then you act equal. I think we've just about made that grade and it certainly makes live better and more enjoyable.

Sheepish, of course men are not necessary, if every one is gay then there will not be anyone to be of any purpose ,thus UN necessary... But your theory says, we can generate our own by technology, but the next question is, into what? Necess- Scary, Ooooo how Solipsism is a curse on those less able to think. But then again, that is an Oxymoron. Or just moronic?
I love my wife too, but , Unequal IQ does not level to: Equallaty, thats agictprop promilgated propaganda.Importance and relivance is the issue, not Thoughtlessness. RESPECT and Diciplin, ahhh yes , that is what this crap has created ,Thoughtlessness and disrespect,for each other. Now we are talking , that is the issue is it not?
Is the druged up Culture war still in full flight? You have to land some time on realisms world in the future. Some how I am not looking foward to that.

Patty,

As Anon. once famously wrote, “crapping on one’s yardstick, will increase measurement error rates”.
I enjoyed your post - Salman Rushdie has nothing on you ;-)

I work at a health resort frequented by women of Maureen's age and younger, often they have the same attitude. Who would want to grow old with them.

My mother was a feminist, from 3 boys she got one granchild, her wish was unintentionally fufilled. She now agrees that it was folly, she was closely associated with one of the most active aussie feminists of the late 70's and early 80's... Pearlie Brown.

It's a destructive ideaology, it will fully support misogynistic cultures as long as they're against the 'white patriarchy'.
I've seen it in action while working for the public service.

Back to the point, I love a woman with a balanced and lively mind and don't really care what nature has given her as long as she takes steps to look after herself. Many women at the health resort blame their obesity and mental state on someone else, many are comtemparies of Dowd and their indoctrination is clear to see.

This article (as well as a discussion I had a couple of nights ago)got me thinking about my experiences of online dating and the kind of profiles I've been reading.

Firstly not a lot of women advertising themselves as "dumb and busty" in the profiles I've seen but then I have not put those items in my search criteria. The biggest differentiator I have seen seems to between those whose profiles are predominately about the manner they wish to be kept in vs those who whose profiles are about what they do. The first crowd seem to be advertising for a new keeper, the others for a partner, an equal. The first crowd seem to see themselves as deserving of the best and demanding the best in their men (wealthy, toned etc) while the others are more likely to be focused on lifes journey and the character of the person they want to spend it with.

The market you shop in may have some impact on the product available, if Dowd and others keep finding guys who focus on "dumb and busty" maybe its because they are too focussed on "rich and groomed" or similar. I've not spent any time reading mens profiles so I can't comment on how they relate to this topic.

R0bert

Ladies, you think life is getting “complex”?

Maybe that is because the hurly and burly exchanges in the world of men, which in the name of equality, the jugg holders have demanded participation in, is really an arena well beyond the capacities of those, who were until recently, cloistered alongside the kitchen sink.

The whole idea that women do not need men is a crock.
It is like suggesting men do not need women.

We might desire women, but do we need them?

We do not need wives that is a certainty.

Just as we do not need a car when we can use a taxi.

Is it better to be seen with an underpowered early model family sedan, in need of a service and a ring change, or a brand spanking new limo fitter with all the latest gadgets, gizmos and suspension which does not squeak when bumped up and down?

As divorce has taught us, the cost of owning the sedan can be a lot higher than the cost of renting the limo for the short periods of time we actually “want” them. And next time we have the “want” we can choose from the “fleet” which limo we will ride in.

(now that has evened up the playing field a little with the feminists)

Men and women have one quality in common, regardless of whether they are from Venus or Mars. The are individuals with some cognitive capability (in varying degrees).

As such the reality is we individuals end up with the relationships we are prepared either to tolerate or to work upon, in other words what we deserve.

The price of strident feminism is strident misogyny.

Want to die a justified misogynist? Old, cold and alone, then go for it.

Want to die a justified feminist? Old, cold and alone, then go for it.

For myself, I will be living this life with my partner and enjoying the relationship we have and sharing what only heterosexual couples can share.

Robert, internet dating is great but read between the lines of the profiles.

Maybe it was just the great weekend I had away that has addled by brain, but Jennifer's article seemed to go nowhere and talk about a book that seemed to be based on a view from nowhere.

Maureen Dowd is a spoof writer. It seems a person needs simply a profile, a forum and a contentious topic to be taken seriously. The whole circus over this book reminds me of "being there".

Bennie - indeed Margaret is a satirist and not to be taken too seriously.

Coraliz - agree Jennifer Sinclair could've done us all a favour and refrained from this tripe.

R0bert - once again thoughtful comments - but is internet dating the way to go? Finding people with the same interests? - do the things you are interested in. Bush walking, hang gliding whatever - at least you'll have fun. I find the concept of dating programs very meat marketish - too many dangers to dodge, would rather fly a kite.

Col Rouge - and I don't need a husband - nyah nyah nyah

But seriously Col & R0bert I believe that gold diggers and misogynists deserve each other and (although not religious) hope that there is a circle in hell reserved for these tragics.

Ah, Maureen forgot one vitally important thing.. MONEY.

Fathers earn the bulk of a family's cash. ABS figures show Australian fathers work 23hrs a week longer than mothers - on average - five hours a day...

PartTimeParent@yahoo.com.au

I think Maureen's argument may be influenced by the type of guys she has dated. She has had previous relationships with Michael Douglas, who is a vain and unreconstructed chauvinist, and the West Wing's creator and writer, Aaron Sorkin - reformed cokehead. Hollywood is notorious for its misogyny. She has written this book, I believe, without statistical or anecdotal support beyond her own. That just translates into a long-winded whinge.
If the guys who have a Pulitzer Prize on their CV, their own op. ed. column in the New York Times and good looks want to be with a woman like Pamela Anderson, why on earth would Maureen Dowd want to be with a guy like that?

Scout, I think some comments on ID (Internet Dating) bear relevance to the topic.

ID is not my prefered way to meet people but I do think it attempts to fill a gap in the getting to meet other singles thing especially for older singles.

My experience has been that a significant proportion of people who I've talked to using ID find the bar, club scene is not something which they are comfortable in. It provides an easy way to find out about some of the values a person holds and what they think is important about themselves. It provides some safety for both parties in the initial stages. It can bring you into a contact with a much wider range of singles in a relevant age bracket than you are likely to find in a local interest group or club. I've been involved in some mid week activities for a while (for my own sanity rather than as a pick up mechanism) and have not met any singles in my age bracket where there has been any sign of interest either way.

I get the impression that not a lot of singles my age are getting out to interest groups. Not sure why, I suspect child care is a significant factor for many but also it may be a generational thing. If I was 10 to 15 years older there seem to be a lot of single women getting out there and pushing some boundaries. I'm also not keen to be the kind of person within such a group who gets a reputation for finding out the relationship status of new female members etc. Can get kind of creepy.

In my ideal world I'd meet a soulmate at a friends BBQ or on a hike with friends but that does not seem to be the way life is going and I suspect that it is not the case for a lot of others as well. ID provides some opportunities which are harder to find elsewhere.

Abreviated due to WC.

Cheers
R0bert

I read this in The Age - making the context a little easier to understand I suppose.

Overall, I enjoyed the review and got the impression that I'd probably agree with the reviewer - if I did the fairly unlikely thing and read the book (being a bloke and all).

Still... with a title like that, I'm sure the book will sell. Thinking about the business side of this a bit further, I suppose there's probably money to be made for any guy willing to write a book titled "(offensive...had second thoughts and cut it)".

The question I would rather pose - is Maureen Dowd really necessary?

Aren’t we all so over this type of crap already?

What’s next – let me guess – are women really necessary, and to whom?

Scout “and I don't need a husband - nyah nyah nyah”

My reward for being deliberately provocative :)

“But seriously Col & R0bert I believe that gold diggers and misogynists deserve each other and (although not religious) hope that there is a circle in hell reserved for these tragics.”

I am sure the gold diggers and misogynists are in a living hell already. No one, who is so bereft of soul and motivated only by material considerations or negative gender values will ever find happiness in any relationship, always the insecurity which drives them will be there.



Robert My current partner and I met through an internet dating site. That was 4 years ago and I am very lucky to have such a lovely lady in my life.

She was not the first person I met, just the last.

I must have had dates with 50 different ladies before I met her. So I can say the ID outcome was not an exercise in desperation but a better process of "mutual selection".

It does not matter where we find a partner, just that we find the right one. ID gave me a range of opportunities (same for anyone who uses the service). It is a better range and a better media than meeting through some dingy nightclub or party.


Cheers

Ah the moronically dowdy witicisms of silly maureen's projected discontent. Thats right maureen, you're sad and confused, so we must be too. Makes sense.

Someone, please... marry the old battle axe.

:)) trade 215

On wed 1st march 2006 ABC FM is interviewing Maureen Dowd and her fuzzy thinking sister in malaise Jane Fonda.

Tune in for a larf at their nonsense and an insight at wot the future might look for bitter, cynical, 'nobody wants me, so we dont need them' sufferers of regret for modelling actual life on the back of inherently specious ideology.