The apathy of the Australian people about politics is undeniable. Most people do not care about politics, it's 'I'm alright Jack'. Howard understand and exploits this beautifully. Just create a bit of fear and a feeling that he alone will keep us safe from interest rates and terrorists, and John is your uncle. Gives him a free hand to satisfy the wishes of those who really control things: big business.

Do any of our current political leaders, state or federal, Liberal or Labor, really want to make Australia fairer and more decent as well as prosperous? Would they know how to go about it?

Will any politician bring about a fair, decent Australia unless they bring about tax reform with an agenda for social justice? By introducing union-busting industrial laws? By allowing concentration of media ownership? And do the great Australian public really care about these issues as the ones that affect them most, and understand what should be done?

For all their faults, Latham & Keating gave glimmers of having the ability to know and do what it takes to make Australia fairer and more decent for all. Hard to think of anyone else who has shown something of that ability or desire.

Mr Latham is ill. I think that much is clear.What made him so ill is less clear.
Perhaps it was the realisation that he had misread the Australian electorate so badly.
He naively thought it was an electorate that valued truth,community,and a fair go for all.
Perhaps he had recently read ' Thier a Wierd Mob' and thought Australia and Australians were still like that.
To wake up the morning after the Oct. 05 election must have been a real shock.
To realise that the electorate,didnt mind that thier Leader was a habitual liar, so long as they had low intrest rates, makes many of us sick to the stomach. Unfortunately for Mark and his already troubled stomach, his head was affected as well. I hope he gets well soon. For all his faults, nobody will ever sustain an arguement that he was a bigger liar than our current PM.

The political / media fortress is a bastion against any truly new ideas or political philosophies. Together they hold debate within narrow confines that serve to maintain the so-called "correct" view of the world.

Latham (beaten and dispirited maybe), lit a fire against the bastion using the only thing he had for kindling. Himself.

For my money, it was an honourable thing to do.

Latham is by definition old news: while there remains a story about and behind his crash and burn demise it will require more forensic investigation than australian media is prepared to undertake; It is unlikely we will ever fully understand or know what really lies behind his bitterness or on going rage - one poster has suggested he is unwell and I suspect that is the case.

Lathan opened several old ALP wounds and to the ALPs shame they have largely been left open and weeping - but that could be the sum total of his contribution - for a brief moment showed signs of being a political visionary but he failed to translate into real politik some of the innovation he displayed in his writings - the machine men got in the way.

His optimism was cruelled paradoxically by the system that nurtured him - a party of favors, elephantine memories where revenge is food for many of their souls - if anything Latham was used and would continue be used by the machine that promoted him. He was destined to come to a sticky end one way or the other.

THe electorate took a shine to his brashness but at the end of the day he really only offered more of the same - his intenion was not so much as Stephens put it over come the effects of prolonged prosperity but to create more wheels for economic hamsters - that was his ladder of opportunity.

The point about Latham being "old news" is, of course, fairly obvious ... but in so dismissing Latham isn't there the temptation of succumbing all-too-quickly to the media's own determination of what is timely and what isn't? Noam Chomsky (ok, I'm not a big fan, but on this point he was accurate) commented some time ago that the very formal limitations that the media imposes on commentary (e.g., timeliness, brevity, and so on) shapes the character of the news. This was obvious the other day on ABC radio's AM programme, when Mark Colvin was interviewing a Middle East specialist who is conversant with the main players in Hamas: Colvin kept trying to reign in his articulate and well-informed analyses of the situation by trying to reduce the matter to Hamas' opposition to Israel's existence and other hackneyed lines. In our superficial and idiotic time, Nietzsche had it right: perhaps the most timely comments are those that are resolutely untimely!

THe point I tried to make - perhaps some what badly was that while there is more to Lathams demise than meets the eye the media will not pursue it - and the public will not clamour for it; the media still determine what is and what is not news.

The average punter, even if enlightened by facts gathered from trawling the internet for arguments sake will not on his or her own have much leverage on the populat press - so Latham remains unnoticed until he beats up another cameraman.

You may well be right about Latham being right and the electorate being wrong - but it sems to be an error we are collectively happy to live with. That is life on the run trying to sustain the prosperity you spoke of; hence detailed analysis of much other than property prices, the all ordinaries and the Dow Jones is really too hard and time consuming.
Rgds Kym Durance

Kym – that is the very point – surely people shouldn’t be happy to live with the knowledge that they are wrong! The truth is, and this is what Latham is about, is that a better life for all, and a better society for all, is not only possible, but extremely achievable.

People have become so caught up in the day-to-day that they have forgotten about everything else, and little Johnnie can take the credit for that. This is clearly recognised in someone from a lower socio-economic background who voted for Howard on the basis of interest rates, now losing any protection for their job because of the IR reforms by the government he/she voted for! But its almost like people don’t see the irony.

There is no common good anymore. But unlike you, although I understand this is the reality, it does not mean I am prepared to acquiesce in its presence. The more people question, the more change is possible. But the really scary thing is, the less people question, the more those in power can exercise their prerogative with zero accountability

Mark Latham blew his election chances when he spoke obscenities quite openly and quite often. That reflected badly on himself and those who put him up as future Prime Minister.
Australians by and large require their representatives to be repectable, well spoken and self disciplined.
The old 'larrikan' image may do at the local but not in parliament.
We do not elect yobs to lead us.

What nonsense Mr Stephens. A politicians objective is not to battle his/ her constituency but to represent it-does the term 'representative democracy' mean anything to you? How about the term 'house of representatives'?

Latham led the ALP to arguably its worst defeat ever. An outright majority in the senate was achieved for the first time in 3 decades and hugely parochial ALP seats were lost. It wasn't because of apathy about politics in Australia. Nor was it about Latham's 'conga of suckholes', nor his altercation with a taxi driver, nor his allegedly abusive first marriage, nor his ridiculous handshake with Howard. It was because people in this country were sick of being dismissed by the left as ignorant, or populist or straight laced.

Latham turned to the far left. The forrestry workers in Tasmania knew it and so did the majority of Australians- and they didn't like it. Nor did the community respect a leader who had been gifted a pathway to the top. As Kevin Rudd remarked "he was a man who had never held a job or position that was not in someway not connected to the ALP." What a sad indictment. Thank god Latham will never be Prime Minister of this country!

Excellent commentary. If only deposed leaders, or indeed anyone, on the Liberal side of politics would expose its inner workings, we would see similar factions and machine men manipulating, controlling, stacking pre-selections. Mark's truthfulness in publishing and his decision to quit should see him remembered as a man of courage and principle, despairing as the light on hill flickers into oblivion.

hijacked

No, mickijo, we don't elect yobs (remember Hawkie, anyone?) any more. Now we elect pusillanimous, lying, war-mongering, dog-whistling scum. Keeps the interest rates down and the towelheads out. It's an achievement of sorts to be the Prime Minister who makes Hawke look like someone you'd be proud to know.

I find Beazley's role in what happened to Mark Latham absolutely dispicable. His ego far outstrips his ability and listening to his eunoch-type voice gleefully say he was ready to take over...after he and others had white-anted Latham was nauseating.

Who are these people that stick with the ALP? Surely they know how patheric the bully-boys in power are? Mark Latham was a breath of fresh air....thank God we have the Greens. Whilst they are far from perfect, they are the real oppostion.

It is more like the power brokers of the Labour party want to forget him rather than the citizens of Australia.

Media and his peers have done the majority of his labelling and questions of his mental stability.

Which is usually their style of a smear and denouncement campaign questioning his thought processes.

Mark Latham exposed the real life scenarios of our fat cats on capital hill, who get too much money to think about themselves and create dramas that justifies their existence to themselves.

And infect the rest of us.

Once every word Latham wrote on his web page or spoke was heard over and again in my home.
Wrongly I thought he was the man to unite Australia and my party.
Long before his election wreck it was clear he never was, in fact the landslide defeat was in sight as the only outcome if you cared to look.
One thing is true no leftist controled ALP will ever rule Australia , and no party calling for retreat from Iraq or any international force will ever win an election.
While asleep the electorate is unlikely to agree with isolationism.
The next new Leader of the ALP will be prime minister Latham never could have been.
Those who gave him a chance have much to answer for.

I cannot believe the support for Latham so far in some of the above posts- Have some of you mixed up Chris Latham the rugby player for Mark Latham the politician perhaps??!! Usually most topics are capable of being debated either way but Mark Latham was openly an incompetent, infantile lunatic straight from the ALP's asylum for failed golden children.

How could one possibly admire him? It wasn't his colleagues who did the damage to his reputation- Latham did a pretty good job of that himself. He never denied the accusations of domestic violence levelled at him by his first wife. Nor did he deny attacking a taxi driver and his associated alcohol abuse. He tried to deny his inability to balance the books at Liverpool Council but the evidence was there for all to see.

More worrying were the positions he was open about. His disdain for the US- a position that no matter where one sits must be dealt with at least practicality and sensitivity (conga of suckholes and worst President ever aren't exactly diplomatic). He had no idea how to deal with Asia either and took no notice of Rudd for personal reasons. His embracing of Brownies' Greens was cringe material-um yes they are healthy opposition but hardly balance of power material.

I think the last election results showed Australians to be far less apathetic in relation to politics than I thought- I don't think a more resounding message could have been delivered to Latham and other far left ALP 'offspring'. As for the allegations that the LIBS have similar waste running around in cabinet, I can count at least 5 MP's/ Senators capable of being future Prime Ministers (Costello, Abbott, Minchin, Nelson, Turnbull). Rudd is about the only ALP candidate-and he should have been a liberal anyway

If any one of those ignorant, insensitive poltroons ever become PM of my country, I'm out. Don't criticise Latham because he was honest. He was a human, like every one of us, and I for one can relate to that. It isn't a criticism in my book.

The Australian voter didin't vote because of dislike, they voted out of fear. Fear of positive change, fear of taking a chance to make the country better, fear of immigrants, fear of god-damn everything.

Abbott? The mad monk. Give it a rest.

Nelson?!! RAINMAN?!! Not even the people who voted for Howard deserve that. Or as the man himself would say - 'not even 13.7 per cent of the proportion of the electorate which allocated its primary vote or its first preference to the government, on a two-party preferred aggregate swing of 2.2 per cent, which if disaggregated on a seat by seat basis can rise as high as 21.97 per cent, of whom 34.9 per cent bought a new pair of shoes in the previous month and if they didn't it's all the Labor government's fault, deserve that'.

Wre:- Abbott, Nelson, Minchin? Mate, you must be kidding. You left out Downer - what a talent. If a Funeral Director company ever needs a CEO, Minchin is their man. Perhaps Abbott could take over from Freddy Nile when he drops off the twig. I bet the Defence Forces are delighted to have flakey Nelson as their Minister, but in recent history that job has been a hospital pass. And even the Libs don't want Costello - Howard won't retire until Costello either goes before him or his leadership hopes are buried forever.

Well wre Latham was is and always will be as you discribed, my view is he came to power after Crean knew he could not continue to ignore the fact he was unloved.
Crean/Latham a spite filled double took my party into noddy land and thats true.
We gain nothing by pleading its not so.
Had Beazley lead at that election the defeat would have been far less.
Gloat no more however, in time the conservatives will suffer such a defeat , maybe post Beazley but it will come.
Latham was never other than a shadow, a man who never had substence, now he has his own behavior to distroy him and it is a soap opera in real life.

Belly,
Are you really an ALP person? Your last post may have got it correct, if Beazley had led the ALP to the last election, the ALP losses would have been smaller! That is debateable, however what is not debateable is that Beazley would have become a three times loser, which we may have to wait until the next election to see now.

The object as I understand it in politics is not to cut your losses, but to W-I-N, Latham, to my knowledge, was the first and only Opposition Leader in history to have a policy instituted from the Opposition benches, that policy was of course was parliamentry superanuation reduction, which Howard knew he had to agree with, however he of course he made sure he would not suffer personally.

There has been a few posters who say, an ALP Government may be a long way off, and with good reason, as long as a two time loser leads the ALP, and consequently the ALP stays out of touch with it's roots, we can expect to see them indefineately in Oppposition, as they should be.

If the ALP ever hope to form another Federal Government, they need to get their collective heads out of the clouds, and come back to the people they were formed to represent. That does not appear to be a likelyhood anytime soon, so they will continue to pay the penality.

Tired old men is something the conservatives have traditionally been famous for, Pig Iron Bob for example, if the ALP hope to W-I-N they must offer a complete vision in every portfolio, and elect a new age leader. Being like any other political party, change, and the pace of change will be too slow for them to win in 2007. Only after yet another demoralising defeat will they realise Beazley is a dud, and go for new young blood, and begin the long arduous process of putting together a coherent broad policy reform into place.There is no purchase in replacing the salesperson, without replacing the product.

The great exodus of ALP voters began with Beazley's leadership, and I use the word lightly here- his pathetic lack of any opposition to Tampa, Children Overboard etc. provided new voters for the Green party.

Whilst the Greens are not perfect, they have been the true opposition since then. I suspect that Beazley and his henchmen started white-anting Latham well before the last election. It is not beyond the realm of possibity, given Beazley's selfish delusion of grandeur, that he was just waiting for something to get Latham out with; any decent human being would have supported the party leader when he was really sick; Beazley used Latham's illness to damage the ALP and get at Latham.

Sunisle.. boy oh boy... you need to get some perspective mate :)

Tampa ? do you really think that swung the election ? good grief.

Using that as a plank of opposition would be rediculous. Mainly because most of the population was behind the sentiments of the government. If you mention 'Children overboard'..again..good grief ?

Do you really think that suddenly swayed masses of people against labor ? Unless some serious research can show it, I would rather doubt that.

The Greens.. the real opposition ? Ooooooh my.. er no, sorry..*gives Sunisle a shake*... They are IMHO a pack of ... (insert any of various adjectives of a negative nature) and Bob Brown is the chief (add adjective). They will always capture a 'few' votes... but guess what.. I believe there are other parties 'getting' the green message, even Family First.. and just like little Johnny stole the one nation vote, maybe another minor party will steal the green vote ?

I for one am organizing Senator Fielding to address a green group in a particular suburb :) and that group's leader is happy to arrange meetings with other similarly minded groups ....

I'm not sure where FF stands on some issues that are close to my heart, but on one particular one, they are poles apart from me, but I'd prefer them to Bob Brown this side of eternity.

We want to forget Latham, because his appointment was a national embarrassment. It was also indicative of the sorry shape of Labor.

I'd guess that within a few years.. Labor will be OUT in NSW and Vic at least. I'd like to think that those who replace them, will have learned from the excesses and mistakes of the past. But in the end, we poor suckers always end up with a 'politician' :)

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18023736%255E2702,00.html
[The Federal Court has served summonses on the chief executive of the organising committee, John Harnden, its legal counsel, a number of top executives and Melbourne businessman Steven Lew, son of the former Coles Myer chairman]

I'm with wre. Latham was, and still is, a boorish thug. Why doesn't he take his own advice and get off his fat a..e and get an honest job instead of bludging off the rest of us?

BOAZ_David,

I suppose it should come as no surprise that you care nothing for the asylum seekers...and it doesn't bother you that the government lied about these unfortunate people throwing their children overboard. You appear to class human beings into catagories, somewhat like the old "white" South Africans.

However, it may come as a surprise to you, but there are those of us who care about ALL human beings, not just a select view. I might also add, that given the angry, sarcasm of your posts, not caring about helping others is not a very satisfying life. Being motivated by self-interest does not lead to happiness. Caring for those in need is a much more fulfilling life.

The Greens may not have the numbers, but they are not afraid to stand up and be counted when Beazley and other wimps run for the hills.

I have spoken to many people on polling days...and remember vividly the first election Beazley lost...too many people to count changed that day and voted Green rather than ALP.

Are you denying the results of those first 2 disastrous results of Beazley's "leadership"....read and learn.

Further to sunisle's post, I deliberately voted Green as a direct result of Beazely's lack of opposition to many issues such as 'children overboard'. I am hardly unique in holding that view.

I find it difficult to reconcile BD's frequent proclamations: "I am Christian therefore, by default I care about people and they are all equal in the eyes of God" or something similar. BD if you voted for Howard you voted to have the wool pulled over your eyes at the very least; at worst you simply didn't care and your claims of religious concern is merely rhetoric.

If people continue to dismiss the many lies of Howard's government, then I despair.

I agree with Shonga that it will take another Labor defeat before this bereft party starts to offer a true alternative.

As for Latham - his problem was that he was too honest, I guess there has to be a balance between outright lies and brutal honesty. Personally, I prefer brutal honesty.

J Kenno- your view is typical of the way the left attempts to belittle and patronise Australians and depict them as frightened, ignorant and unworthy of a vote. If that is your view why don't we institute a Roman style democracy in which the vote of professionals and academics counts three times more than that of others? The conservative coalition would still win in that case-and probably by more.

As for the disparaging comments about some of the liberal leadership hopefulls- all are capable, solid performers and that is far more appealing to the Australian public than the candidates that the ALP throws up (Latham, Gillard, Crean, Midnight Oil would never and will never happen). The Australian public also recognises the distinct lack of talent in the ALP. Rudd is talented but is kept down by factions and nobody sees the merit in that. The 'workers party' has most of its hardest workers disillusioned. No matter how rich or connected the Lib candidates are, they don't last in the cabinet unless they can cut it (with the exception of Vandstone possibly).

If the ALP becomes a 'centre' party and disassociates itself with the Greens and the patronising far left then it may well win in the future. Until that time the coalition will not get beaten at an election- even taking into account the current disputes within the ranks (ie the Nationals/ Costello).

Dear Sunisle (and Scout)
I’m not sure where u derive the idea that I don’t care about ‘the’ (whoever that is) Assylum seekers.

What I do, is differentiate between the apparently genuine and the fake.

The fake can be identified very simply. The evidence is as follows:

“They will travel through a NUMBER of countries JUST to get to Australia”

Now, my sympathy is with them UP TO the first port of call where safety can be found from their own place.

My sympathy is then subject to the law, whereby they have ceased to be ‘assylum’ seekers and become automatically ‘economic opportunists’ at the moment it becomes clear they have moved ON from those countries where they HAD what they were seeking.

Do you understand this ?

I struggle to see why you have a problem with this reasoning, unless it is connected with a specific political agenda that clearly disrespects Australian and international law and the UN convention of refugees ?

Lets take a recent example. From what I understand, the Border is very tight between PNG and WP, so its probably not viable to head to PNG, but if it WAS, I would expect them to do so for obvious reasons. Assuming I’m right about this difficulty, their coming to Australia is ok, and they have my full sympathy. They did not go ‘through’ another country to get here either.

Scout, specially for your benefit, you need to differentiate between my personal feelings and sound refugee/ migration policy. I might be quite sympathetic to the situation of people on a one to one basis, but ‘policy’ is what protects our independance, soveriegnty, and freedom. What has “I’m a Christian” got to do with sound reasoning based policy ?

Sunisle, you are reading ‘in’ to my posts your own ‘hate’ :) If ur Victorian (Dianne.. u 2) why not come along to Maroondah festival on the 19th of Feb at Croydon and meet me at the ‘Spiritual Journey’ tent we are running ?

Scout... If JH truly lies, then he will reap what he sows :)

Leave him alone.I think he needs time to sort out his problems.The Telegraph should have done like wise.
Politics is a dirty game and we need to encourage more people of ability and integrety to get better leadership.Pay Cabinate Ministers on performance and perhaps they will do what's good for us all.
The Liberals will win the next one not because of their great ability and reforms,but mainly because Labor have no talent and no relevant policies.

The liberals have not the will to tackle the most important issues,that of tax reform and welfare reform.The reason why we don't have money for health and infrastructure is that it is just too easy to get on welfare.1.5 million Aust of working age are collecting welfare or 15% of our working pop,many of whom work only part time.

Simplify this stupid tax system , give people incentive to get to work and don't penalise them for having two jobs.It will bring great benefits to ordinary working folk,generate more tax, but Pollies are too focused on the urgency of votes and won't act until the wheels look like falling off.

Shonga I have noted your posts and I respect your views ,spend some time however reviewing my posts.
Un questioned as from the ALP camp I however want good goverment from my team, Latham was unworthy of leading us.
His policys put more votes in the conservative camp they bought to us.
As a conservative Unionist, as a true beleaver, as an Australian , its never been more important that my party not be weighted down and drown at the up comeing election by dumb unwinnable policys.
Kim Beazley had some chance last time Latham zero, a Beazley campaign ,then not now , would never have handed the senate to our untrusted PM.
Bill Shorten now! we await a by election!

Belly,

Have you been on an alternate planet? The drift from the ALP BEGAN WITH BEAZLEY'S FIRST ELECTION LOSS. How many times does this cowardly no-policy excuse for a leader have to loose before you get it?

Please answer about the exodus from the ALP that began with Beazley.

jkennno: I guess my poor attempt at irony failed: I agree there is little sense of common good any more.

It will probably a committment to human values rather than the economy -and these are not mutually exlusive concepts - that will be a key element of the next political force.

aka sneekeepete

Sunisle its quite ok to have confedence in your self, do you however think some of it is miss placed?
Extra votes to the greens? not enought surely to stop the train wreck Mark built that gave the senate to Howard.
Surely facts speak for themselves? CONSERVATIVES thrashed us! the combined vote of conservaties won easly.
Boat people weighed against the ALP leave Iraq did too
Maths shows clearly winning two votes by the loss of 3 is no winning plan.
No fear for me in a mainstream winning ALP only that can remove conservative goverment not the greens.
It was and is clear to realists Latham lost the election months before it was held his most outstanding policy? LOVE YOUR CHILDREN!?

Never done this before but part 2
Reality is I did not say Kim was todays answer he was however much better than the Crean/Latham surender.
Sunsie you are in the wrong jumper and the wrong team, the ALP is not in any way the radical greens.
Nore are the Australian voters, Bill Shorten is the future of the party a centerist party for a centerist country.
No other path leads to goverment.
Keiting was no Latham history will be kind to him.
Latham? he is history!and my ALP all the better for it.

Ah well, the thug is in court again for another episode of violent behaviour.

My husband just said: "I wouldn't mind his (funded by us)$70,000 per year super to sit on my bum - and do minimal housework in his million dollar household. But then, I might sit on my bum, but I wouldn't go around punching up people".

Cheers
Kay

Tell you what Pal if I had been Latham I would have shoved the camera up the Tele mans backside, It is none of his business what a private citzen does,some of you people think that the Murdock press can do no wrong,I think they are a gutless buch of cowards.

I agree with those comments regarding Mark that he was a breath of fresh air. I also believe that his illness brought about by stress just showed the human side of the man (a man of the people).

I particularly liked his style of bringing family into politics unlike the Liberals who only really considers big business.

But the most awful thing about Latham not becoming Prime Minister is that the lies and deceit of the current Government continue unabated.

I am appalled that Liberal friends of mine see "nothing wrong" with the methods of conducting business of Government without honour or integrity. For ten years our Country has prostituted its reputation across the world, from the children overboard scandal to the current wheat board fiasco, not forgetting the Veteran Affairs coverup. And then there is the Weapons of Mass Destruction that just had to be destroyed by the "Willing".

And people in general don't appear to hold issue with the ongoing slaughter of our reputation. What is happening to the standards of good conduct?

Mark Latham and I did have one thing in common until he became Opposition Leader, then he changed his mind on that for political expediency. He believed in the concept of Voluntary Euthanasia.

I wondered if that attitude too has reverted, and changed in the past year or so. I hated the way he was treated when he was ill by both the media and even more so, the Machinery of the Labor Party of which I was ashamed to admit to being a Member of.

I also agree with a previous writer who told us exactly what he would have done with the offending camera. If anyone could have done it, Mark could!.....The sort of man I could quite comfortably be marooned on an isle with. A man of strength and character, lost to politics but not to a life worth living.

Mary Walsh
www.yourchoiceindying.com

To the above post:'Puke'.

A man of strength and character? When two hundred thousand people were being washed away by a tsunami he couldn't even snap himself out of his 'depression' (tantrum more like it) to express a nation's sorrow in what could have been an extremely short message.

Elevated 'family' into politics too did he? What about the small issue of the alleged drunken abuse and his ex wife's fear of him? Or him punching a taxi driver right before the 'conga line of suckholes comment'? What a sterling role model! What some people don't understand is that without successful economics happy families don't exist. Sure the two aren't synonomyous but I didn't see the mortgage belt voting for Latham-perhaps they remember Keating?

Finally Latham has chosen to remain in the public eye. His whopping super, his constant media appearances, his book and his relentless criticism of all and sundry make him a prime target! So enough of the "i feel so sorry for him" lines! A man of character and strength indeed! Laughable.

Latham has left politics, what is the point in carrying on about this ill man. The Lib's will just have to get over it. The Labor party has moved on. They now have thier own Lazarus with a triple bypass.

wre - I often find much to agree with in your posts, however, to state that Latham should've just "snapped out of his 'depression'" indicates that you know nothing about this debilitating illness. If it was only that easy..... I probably would be back at work instead sitting here trying to enlighten you about mental illness.

I suppose your post illustrates why so many Australians want to forget about Mark - depression is still regarded as a weakness rather than what it is - an illness. I guess you are very uncomfortable with the idea of mental illness. Clearly all the publicity about this disorder has achieved little, if anything.

Come surely only a conservative could forgive Latham his childlike war on his own party?
Yes gone and the best move he ever made for Aussie politics.

Scout

Has Mark Latham been formally diagnosed with clinical depression? When and where was that documented?

Even is he is being treated for clinical depression, it is important to realise there is a significant difference between illness related behaviour and plain "bad" behaviour.

From my mental health nursing experience, Latham's overt behaviours are not symptoms of clinical depression.

Cheers
Kay

Kalweb

Has Mark Latham been diagnosed as well-adjusted and happy?

Where is the documentation to support this?

See neither of us really know. And maybe never will.

I can understand Mark's behaviour if indeed he is or was seriously depressed.

You, with your experience should know this also.

Therefore, your post leads me to conclude that you prefer to believe that Mark is simply bad and not mad.

I don't approve of Mark's behaviour, however where there is room for doubt I like to err on the side of understanding rather antipathy. As a sufferer of chronic depression I have become a far more tolerant person. I KNOW how irrational one can behave. I have actually been there. Something that, even the most astute of observers can never really know.

Scout I sympathise with you, but as Kalweb pointed out Latham was never diagnosed with a mental illness-to my knowledge...although there is a defence for his upcoming court appearance.

I must admit - as the author of the article that I am pleased has generated some vigorous discussion - that I am surprised how easily the explanation of 'Latham's madness' is thrown around ... Finally, the last few posts have asked the right question: who ever said he was despressed? OK, there are the well known psychological consequences that seem frequently to follow serious illness, but is that what we are dealing with here? Latham is by nature aggressive, but please remember that since 1993 he was widely regarded as a Labor intellectual. (Has anyone had a crack at his 1998 magnum opus, Civilising Global Capital?) As any reading of the Diaries will confirm, his intellectual and pragmatic credentials as a Third Way politician (in the tradition of Blair, Clinton, etc.) are impecable. Have we really become so used to bland, dispassionate politics that we forget the great tradition (especially in Labor) of idiosyncratic, yes, but truly brilliant politicians who actually believe that politics means something and thus act with conviction and chutzpah. This just confirms my point about the Latham/Keating connection ... Please, no more trite remarks about Latham as a disturbed westie. I suspect he is simply caught between two worlds: on the one hand, his election defeat shattered his faith in the potential of Third Way political programmes and he half-longs to remain a political thinker; on the other hand, he loves his lads and is finding a certain catharsis in his seclusion.

With all due respect Mr Stephens 'the third way politicians' that you seem such an admirer of have to have public support fot that 'way'. Clinton for example carefully gauged public sentiment before producing an oppurtunity to steer away from Bush Snr.

Latham wasn't about gauging public sentiment nor was he a 'representative' as such. He instead was about gauging ALP sentiment, representing the factions and living his dream of emulating Whitlam-a PM whom if it wasn't for that famous dismissal would be regarded as one of the great failures.

Fair enough, wre, but let me put the record straight on a few matters. I'm no fan of the "Third Way" -- it just that Latham was. What defines the Third Way is a kind of willingness to embrace a version of social responsibility (holding onto vestiges of the now-defunct welfare-state) while, at the same time, promoting free-market capitalism and a rather more expansionist and progressive notion of individual achievement. (In other words, it renounces Leftism's collectivity and reformism, promotes competition, but tries to have a good conscience about it.) Also not that Latham's didn't garner support among with the factions no among the Australian public. He was personally boosted by the prospects of winning, by the interest that his local-community-minded policies was generating ... but he held the opinions of the masses at arms length. The purpose of his policies -- and he is pretty clear about this -- was not to attract the people but to create shift in perspective. And it is here that the difference between Clintion/Blair and Latham becomes clearest: for all his love of the vulgar velacular, Latham was no populist ...

Scout

Thank you for your last post.

I too have experienced clinical depression (two occasions many years ago). I diagnosed myself on both occasions and was able to seek treatment and counselling before it became protracted.

I fully understand behaviours associated with long term clinical depression. I learned my own early warning signs so that I could be proactive, and not reactive. As a consequence I have never required hospitalisation, nor have I had a further episode. It's hard work, but it is worth the pain and effort to beat "the back dog", as Churchill put it.

In my view, the only "cure" comes from the therapist within each and every one of us. We have the magic wand.

Cheers
Kay

PS: These experiences taught me a great deal. I became a much better mental health nurse and therapist as a result.

Not so sure Latham is ill, I too once dwelled on his every word and held high hopes for him.
A very long time before Crean saddeled the ALP with Latham leadership I found my hope miss placed.
Some Crean for a start should share the blame for Latham and I question Crean fighting for pre selection ,what posible part could he play in the house?
No third way man Latham once in power lost interest in everything he had based his political life on and lost more voters to the conservatives than any before him.
A Tony Bliar will come to the ALP and the sooner the better.

Belly increasingly it is becoming less likely.How do we get a Tony Blair from the present union rabble?Many would need not only a brain transplant but also serious coaching in ethics and manners.

I think we need to pay pollies a lot more and just have fewer of them to get the intelligence and commitment.Pay them on performance to get the courage and dispense with the old Public Service mentality of jobs for life.

Well it won't happen in my lifetime or yours,since many are to comfortable in their zones of mediocrity and privledge.