"Well they were also the only ones to argue against it with any seriousness."

You forget Fide, that plenty of slave owners quoted the old testament, to justify their holding of slaves.

Lots of people have lived and died for the human rights movement, without being religious.

In fact it can be argued, that its a more moral person who believes in something, because they have a sense of justice and fairness, they know what is right, without doing so because they fear
judgement day

Last word,
I note you believe Atheist secular States work the best, so I assume you believe the Karl Marx doctrine and support the old USSR, Cuba, North Korea, and China. Where the individual under these regimes who chooses religion is dispensable and practising religion is a State crime.

With your claim: "Syed you are right on one thing: secular states work best with secular people - probably atheists. We can see the impact everywhere of religion on Government decisions."

In these State we can see the impact of Atheism on the decisions of Government. Exactly Last word, so true. Unfortunately for you - religion raised its ugly head and destroyed the Soviet Union. Thank God! It is the influence of Christianity in South Korea that has caused them not to unite with North Korea. By the way - in South Korea the Rev Fred Nile is considered a Saint as he frequently addresses political rallies to thousands of Christians in universities and Colleges.

South Korea according to your theory has not got the superior Government like the North Koreans - have they Last Word? They are a bunch of backward loosers in comparison to the atheistic North. Yes we can all agree that atheism gives us the best Government; well according to "Last word" that is the fact.

It is apparent most who object to Christianity have never entered a Church that genuinely teaches the words of Christ. The fact is the God we worship ought to be seen incarnate in the lives of people who follow the teachings of Christ - that is the God Christians worship [compare my two previous posts]. God is not a remote being he is the spirit that that emanates from people who worship the idealism of character, behaviour, service, wisdom and revelation. That is why Christianity refuses to accept as lifestyle the decadence and abhorrent behaviours of a modern anti-god society

Froggie,
The captive use of slaves was not authorised by Christ as part of Christianity but was practised by Gentile people who may have called themselves Christians who failed to follow Christ's teaching. If you note the words spoken by Jesus at his commission in Luke 4: 18 - 19 "He [God] sent me to proclaim the release of slaves" (captives) is one of his primary missions and that was quoted from Isaiah's writing who was a Jewish prophet held as a slave in Babylon.

Israel had experienced being slaves of other nations like Egypt and Babylon. Christ never endorsed slavery unfortunately the Roman Church failed to read the words of Christ as that privilege was denied Roman Christians by their Church till the last 100 years as Clerics only read the scriptures and interpreted them to the Roman Church. Protestant Churches were responsible for the printing press and the free reading of the Biblical text where they realised slavery was anathema to Christ's teaching.

To quote you, "Your remark that Christianity was the first religion to proscribe slavery is also correct; but it took them a very long time, didn't it?"

Philo
Thanks for your correction, which should perhaps be directed to Fide Mae, one of your fellow believers, who first made reference to the attitude of Christianity towards slavery. I still hold that my assertion is correct however, as the original Church, the Catholic one, certainly said nothing at all against slavery, and I am told actively participated in it, at least for many hundreds of years.
It is just another example of the myriad of ways in which organized religion has not kept faith with the original teachings of its founder, or founders.
This is one of the reasons, among others, for why I regard organized religion as complete nonsense. In this, I include all religions, not just Christianity. I have no respect at all for fundamentalist Islam, which I feel is very primitive, and seems stuck in the 6th century. The "cartoon" furore at the moment makes me think that followers of Islam cannot be very sure of the strength of their religion, if they can be so easily upset by some silly drawings.
Just think of how much more peaceful the world could be, if there were no religious fanatics in it.
As many other posters on this forum have eloquently pointed out, there is little factual evidence for the stories in the Bible.
I think it is time the Human Race moved on from all these childish beliefs. However, perhaps I'm expecting too much, so please carry on believing if it makes you happy.

Philo, I must correct you on a couple of points, the Russian orthodox church fully supported Marx, thats why it and its churches survived and flourished. If you look at the facts, you will find that the church was prominent at work camps around the USSR. As it was in hitlers Europe.

Sth Korea's overwhelming majority is Buddhist and Confucianism. Christians make up less than 10%.

“It is apparent most who object to Christianity have never entered a Church that genuinely teaches the words of Christ.”

This statement shows how irrational and ridiculous your claims are. What you are saying is that 99.9% of churches are false, could it be you believe that your USA late 20th century invented churches are the only true church.

“the Roman Church failed to read the words of Christ as that privilege was denied Roman Christians by their Church till the last 100 years as Clerics only read the scriptures and interpreted them to the Roman Church.”

This is an incredibly false statement, as I've seen a bible going back to 1565, printed in Holland and have one printed in 1742, a sea captains bible which includes marriages, death sections. Gutenberg produced the first moving type press in 1452, 65 years before the Reformation. However the Chinese created ceramic type in the 11th century. One of Gutenburgs original bibles is in the USA congress library, printed in 1455

The first books to show up in print shops were bibles and religious tracts. The next books to attract publishers were the "humanist" texts brought back from Byzantium by the Crusades, and other texts of antiquity.

You people get more fanciful each day.

Froggie... so GLAD u can actually see the difference between the 'founder' and the 'followers' :) well..in the case of 'organized religion' at least.. and I totally agree.

So.. now.. why not just look at the founder.. at Jesus, and follow Him as He really is ? "You" can be the first 'perfect' Christian :)

But.. be warned.. there is a cost...

THE INVITATION (Luke 14)
16Jesus replied: "A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, 'Come, for everything is now ready.'

18"But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, 'I have just bought a field,[or Holiday House] and I must go and see [Relax in] it. Please excuse me.'

19"Another said, 'I have just bought five yoke of oxen,[or F6 Typhoon Falcon] and I'm on my way to try them out [Drive it]. Please excuse me.'

20"Still another said, 'I just got married, [am plain too busy] so I can't come.'

21"The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, 'Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.'

THE COST
26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. 27And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

NOTE.
Forgive the little 2006 additions to the holy writ.
I'm sure you are knowledgeable enough to identify the 'cultural' way Jesus was speaking about 'hating' mother and father.....If not, please get back to me and we can discuss it.