"As a matter of fact, the extreme division among the people, who are in today’s terminology known as fundamentalists and moderates, are the consequences of the ideology of combining Islam and the secularism of the West."

In other words, the secularity of the West is to blame for all the ill's of morally bankrupt countries such as Pakistan. Give me a break..

Are the heinous Hudood laws (the requirement for a woman who has been raped to have 4 males witnesses to the incident before her word will be accepted in a court of law - elsewise she may be charged - and jailed for years - with adultery), or the Vani traditions (where daughters, pre-teen, are 'given' in 'marriage' to pay off debts), or so many other laws & islamic customs that debase particularely women but disgrace the entire country are a side affect of Western secularity? Bunkum Syed.

As a Paki who has seen the light and done a runner (can't blame you for that) I'd have expected that you would by now be blaming the West less and began delving into the reality behind the failure of Islamic nations.

Not that I blame everything wrong with Pakistan on Islam. I also think a lot has to do with the dubious practise of too many people marrying their cousin.

Dear Steve

Two aspects of your post concern me.

1/ You refer to the 'Islam is evil' mob who will 'rubbish anything the author says'.. ridiculous. I will draw attention to specific things which are important. Islam and its doctrines and History included. If there are 'evil' or dangerous social implications to fundamental doctrines of Islam, then they will be relentlessly exposed for all to see. As would those of "White Superiority".

2/ You suggest that a private meeting of various like minded government members in their own time to pray and discuss, should be 'made illegal' ? Good grief. Lets look at this 'dangerous' group of felons:

BELIEFS
Members of the Lyons Forum believe that the family is the fundamental unit of society and is the prime agency for the total development of children.

We believe that marriage is the union of a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others voluntarily entered into for life and provides the environment in which nurturing of children can best be undertaken.

We believe the well being of the family is essential to the stability, morale, security and prosperity of the Australian nation.

We believe the government through its activities should promote the family as the fundamental unit of society.

Yep.. sounds INCREDIBLY 'dangerous' to me... I mean.. we are on the edge of a cataclysmic desintegration of the world because the 'family' (not even RELIGION) is seen as worthy of being promoted.

Weird.. its been the mainstay of every tribe and nation for thousands of years.. and suddenly those promoting it are 'dangerous and should be made illegal' Get a grip mate..and please stop going to those secret Neo Nazi meetings :) because that is how you are sounding.

Lets not forget Steve.. this is still a democracy and if these 'evil praying weirdos' as you seem to think they are get too out of control the VOTERS (shout) will deal with them.

You don't want MPs to even PRAY for the country ? and you want them criminalized ? I'm incredulous. Secular state does NOT mean secular statesmen.

"As a matter of fact, the extreme division among the people, who are in today’s terminology known as fundamentalists and moderates, are the consequences of the ideology of combining Islam and the secularism of the West."

Congratulations, you just realised where the realists on this forum are coming form - Islamic culture clashes with our liberal society.

A secular state doesn't mean you can go around beheading people because it says its ok in Al Quran.

In a democracy the majority will always dominate, so keep having 15 children on govertnment welfare and bring the numbers of Islam up and we can piss the secular state off for sharia law... YAY!! I can't wait!!

"Also why Christinity (and not multiculturalism) is the bedrock of a liberal democratic form of government."

Interesting. Anyone care to ellaborate?

David.

My comment about Islam is evil was directed at the posters who will not really read the article and just continue their bile against Islam. (Can you deny they don’t exist?)

My dislike of the Lyons Forum and similar clichés comes from the fact that our elected officials are serving two masters. They have to balance the views of their electorates and their personal moral and ethical views. I do not like the fact that we have a de facto cabinet that imposes its views on Government.

What gives them the right to decide on what a family is? Look at the statistics; sorry the happily married couple with kids are sadly in the minority. The majority of people in Australia live alone. However you look at it the Lyons forum view of the family is a myth.

We need our Federal Govt. to look after all Australians not just those who follow the views of The Mad Monk.

At each election we hear bribes to “The Family” baby bonuses, more tax relief etc. Instead of tax reform that benefits everyone. The Lyons forum at work.

I do believe that they are a dangerous group of felons, not because of their particular religion, but because they are using their religion to guide them in a secular society.

At least they could admit who they are.

Stay well
Steve

Hassan bounded by the chains of his religious perspective, cannot perceive that education, literacy, science, democratic freedoms, and economic development, flourished under secular states, in comparison to religious states, such as Islam. As an illustration of science, just imagine if religious leaders were in command of the state and had issued a fatwa upon the great discoveries of Copernicus and Galileo, all of us would still be flat-earthers.

This is the great challenge, for both moderate and hardcore Islamists: to liberate themselves from the dead weight of tradition which like a specter weighs upon the minds of the living, to quote Marx, that stifles the spirit of man from accomplishing his emancipation from all the wooden idols of religion. This is the only way for Muslim countries to achieve their CONTEMPORARY ambitions of freedom and economic development, and not live in the faded glories of a PAST era.