More of the same. It's getting boring. Either we need to get off the subject altogether, or we need new material.

It is Leighs' posts which are boring. Rejects anything which doesn't conform to his view of how things should be.
I found this article well balanced, constuctive and informative.

Perhaps Leigh could post something? Anyhow, Dirk has my vote, I'm tired of the ceaseless garbage that Miranda Divine churns out week after week. I hope she reads the posting.

Leigh, stop being a lazy feral. Get off your backside and produce 850 words of coherence. When you can do that, I'll take you seriously. Until then, all I'll see is your backside in the air and your head plonked in the sands of Cronulla Beach!

A very useful assessment which will go a long way towards understanding the phenomena.
There is every chance of a recurrence of the violence unless more commentators are prepared to accept honestly that this Country has not completely shed it's 'white australian' mind set.
Prominent commentators reinforce the mind set which is clearly encouraged by Government Policies towards Asylum Seekers, Refugees and Migrants.

Even if it means we hear "more of the same", we can't get off the subject altogether. The racist attitudes held by rioters and members of the media will not just go away if we stop talking about them, and Dirk's article addresses the issue well.

dirk the way your getting stuck into miranda i suspect that you have the hots for her.

so stop pretending you hate her and just ring her up for a date.

Much more subtle than Greg Barns' diatribe about Australia, but still with the thinly disguised sneer at how most Anglo Aussies are racist against the "other".

Did anyone else notice that Moses chided Miranda Devine for using a Nazi Germany reference (albiet one event) but made no mention of Rev Smith's article on this very site which compared Australia to fascist Germany?

Looks like Moses is just out to give another group of Australians a black arm band to play the victim.

t.u.s.

Dirk Moses here. It is true, I don't mention Father Dave's article and his misleadingly alarmist reference to the Reichstag fire and civil freedoms. That is because it had not appeared when I sent mine to ONO a week ago.

The defensive comments of some folks here are noteworthy. They bear out what I say in my first paragraph: that too many people are unable to engage with arguments that discomfort them. And that they think they have all the answers. Yet, at least with the two dismissive comments here, none are ventured.

dirk, good article

for those that knock the article can you explain the following

why did aussie males with a culture that only whimps hit women attacked in mob style women purely because they were of middle east appearance?

did they believe they were the ones that attacked the lifesavers?

do you condone the attacks if not why are you not condemning them?

on an earlier post someone was claiming that anglo-saxons haven't formed gangs.

give me a break, study the history of organised crime first of all it was the Irish mob, followed by the Sicilian Mafia and then the Colombian gangs and to a large extent now the Russian mafia.

What is the common theme, family connections, hence organized crime and the such consists of groups from the one racial background.

When was the last time you heard of a crime syndicate made up of Russians, Greeks, Turks and Irish?

Quite frankly it was a pogrom nothing else,those that want to delude themselves need to wake up

Dirk

It was with great trepidation I read your article past your initial inaccuracy regarding the Cronulla riot, note not riots, for I had read your bio and I understood you to be truly an academic, a learned person. I knew I would have to respond in a manner befitting real intellect.

I was wrong. Most of my truckie mates could manoeuver their oversize interstate rigs through the holes in the superficial argument you presented as an intellectual's expert opinion....

I'm tired tonight so I'll do it tomorroww besides your article... well it really does deserve some attention from a perspective that is based in daily experience and a truly thoughtful, and critically so, view from we who have never been cloistered or who have suckled from the public purse in any way.

Commentary on the riots has also been disappointing from our esteemed academics, as well it seems.

Dirk’s first paragraph leaves the reader with the impression that a non-partisan appraisal of the event and its causes is to follow. But that’s not the case. I particularly love how the unabashed racist Greg Barnes “vents his spleen”, but Miranda Devine is accused of despising immigrants, Alan Jones incites pogroms and Piers Akerman de-nationalises Muslims. Moses also accuses Devine of using “cheap Nazi analogies”, but then of course goes on to introduce Nazi imagery throughout the rest of the article, slyly comparing Australian society with 1930’s Germany. Dirk is the last person who should be getting indignant about Nazi analogy.

The whole article is just another rant against Australian society. Like it or not Dirk, this country has a history. We have a culture. We are proud of both. Our history didn’t start with the disastrous advent of multiculturalism, no matter how much you wish for it. No one is saying that immigrants must forget where they come from. Why should they? Most people whose families have been here for 200 years still identify with their Scottish or Irish or English origins so it’s a bit much to expect others to not do the same. By the same token we’re all Australians first.

The whole problem is one of spine (or should I say, lack of it). The police have to get a spine and enforce the law. They must prosecute law-breakers no matter their ethnic origins. The judiciary has to get a spine and start actually punishing people for anti-social behaviour. We’ve seen it once with a youth jailed for carrying a tree branch. Pity we haven’t seen it in too many other instances. People like jelly-backed Dirk need some spine as well. They need to stop their condescending attitudes to immigrants that have them cast as victim, as poor helpless urchins powerless against the pogroms, disenfranchisement and bigotry of the dominant white patriarchal society.

By the way, go ask a Jew who actually experienced Kristallnacht what a pogrom is you fools.

Here we have a politically correct Academian taking the politically correct media to task for not being politically correct enough for his politically correct tastes.

If the professor wants a "truth that dare not speak its name" I suggest he look at the hate and anger in Islam. The fact is that Islam is intolerant and oppressive. It provides the basis for the alienation and hostility in so many Muslim communities, and makes integration and even respect for others (non-Muslims) very difficult for many Muslims. Of course I am generalizing, but the is evidence is there, even if it has escaped certain people who teach a limited politically correct version of history.

The Sydney events are not just about Australia. Any discussion of this issue without considering the global aspects of the problem and the inherant anger in Islam is a waste of time. What happened in Cronulla is the same that has happened in the streets of England and France. It is the same think that happened on a train in the south of France two weeks ago. It will also happen in the streets of Holland, Sweden and other countries - it is just a matter of time. It will get worse.

Why do so many people refuse to see the obvious?

John Kactuz

Dirk Moses:

"The defensive comments of some folks here are noteworthy. They bear out what I say in my first paragraph: that too many people are unable to engage with arguments that discomfort them."

How very undergraduate of you. Really, that is shameful that you allowed that one to slip past. Must be all that truth to power speaking giving them the heebie-jeebies.

Alternatively they may just think you are wrong. It is a possibility you know.

"And that they think they have all the answers. Yet, at least with the two dismissive comments here, none are ventured."

With 2000 words of your own I noticed not a single answer either. So what precisely is your reason for mentioning this?

Also, given that we achieve all this (nothing) in under 350 words, the obvious conclusion to be drawn is that we are far more efficient in our use of the language. Don't you agree?

"I don’t pretend to have the answers to the challenges of reconciling multiculturalism with national identity"

Dirk, you criticise dismissive comments for offering no answers yet at the same time included this comment in your article.

"it is not as simple as asking everyone to play by the rules"

It is as simple as everyone playing by the rules - the rule of law. I do have discomfiture with anyone being treated differently when they have committed crimes and it is partly because of the inability to prosecute violent thugs, of any creed, which has led to this situation.

PS: My apologies for the accusation of bias regarding Rev Smith.

t.u.s

Dear Dr Dirk
in regard to your OLO article, I'm wondering if you can assist me with some clarification.

I found the article itself to be the result of some very close examination of particular 'terminology' used by the mass media, which on the surface seems impressive. But I find that the implications you draw from these not well founded.

Here is an axample.

Or as Miranda Devine put it, “pasty-faced nerds with a taste for Nazi literature” opposed “the real hardmen, the Lebanese-Australian criminal gangs” (Sydney Morning Herald, December 22):

Miranda clearly says the problem IS 'those with a taste for Nazi Literature' and the other group "Criminal gangs" and this description is entirely accurate. But from this narrow expression of limited scope you draw:

<<in other words, the problem is not the home-grown neo-Nazis but the immigrants they despise irrespective of how they behave.>>

Though the problem has been identified by Miranda as 2 sided, you appear to portray it as 'one' sided, being the Neo Nazi whites who hate all immigrants. That is a racist conclusion which we do not accept.

For a professor of history, your view of the Cronulla events seems rather limited to the actual days of the outbreak, rather than (as a good historian would do) examine the long history of growing anti social violence which preceeded the 'straw which broke the camels back' of the attack on lifesavers etc.

To be blunt, that is shabby.

Your article seems to have pre-judged the whole Anglo population and condemned us to 'racist', when in fact, I believe I've clearly shown that your article itself is 'racist'.

[Deleted for flaming]

Irfan,

You are a bit tough on me, mate. You wanted only 800 words in your post on the Salam Zreika article, but you want an extra 50 from me! I've put out hints to you to answer a few questions, with no response, so I'll decline your invitation. I agree with Kay. You are getting a bit stroppy. Apears to have happened since your last article. We haven't seen one for a while. I have always found them informative.

Rossco,

Sorry you find my posts boring, but do you really expect anyone NOT to reject anything which doesn't conform to his or her own beliefs? You obviously reject what I think, as you are perfectly entitled to.
Must be something to do with the name Rossco!

I though the idea was to agree or disagree with people submitting articles they are trying to persuade with, not bashing fellow posters with different opinions on those articles. However, if you want it that way, I'm happy to join in. It could be fun.

We should remember, however, that what any of us thinks is only worth one solitary vote at elections.

bozzie mate,
first: how many australians can trace their ancestors back 200 years (i notice that you don't mention those who can go further)?
and second: look around you. multiculturalism is a fact whether you like or not. you seem to be lamenting it as if you can stem the tide.
why not try to make the most of the culture in which you live.
good luck,
bel

bel, mate.

You don't need to be able to trace your ancestors back to the cave to work out the origins of your surname. How many people do you know that have absolutely no idea of their racial origins?

In interpreting my views on overseas born Australians, don't add two and two and come up with five.

You mention enjoying our culture. Culture and multiculture are two entirely different things.

PART ONE
The discussion here has been symptomatic of the problems I lay out in my first paragraph. Half the commentators here applaud me for apparently condemning Australian racism. The other half condemn me for doing so. There are the usual expressions of different prejudices that fizzle out into some weird exchanges between apparent intimates.

As all so often, the issues raised by the writer are not dealt with directly or they are misread. I made a number of points. The first was the imbalance of most media commentators in their coverage of the pogrom. The narrative strategies of the commentariat placed the blame at the feet of the Australian-Lebanese, thereby avoiding this uncomfortable question: what was the source of the EXCESS apparent on December 11? For what we saw then was NOT an understandable reaction to provocation by SPECIFIC groups of Australian-Lebanese youths. It was an indiscriminate lashing out against ANYONE with so-called Wog and Leb looks. I’ve not seen an attempted explanation for this feature of the pogrom.

It is true that neo-Nazis were mentioned, but they were immediately isolated as a harmless rump (‘pasty faced nerds’) of no consequence. The real Nazis are the Lebs, we are bidden to believe. It’s important for this kind of manipulation to be exposed, and it was my intention to do so in the article.

Calling the riot a pogrom does not equate it to Nazi German, as one observer incorrectly thinks. The analogy is with Imperial Russia, I clearly wrote. Making this analogy does not condemn all Anglo-Australians as racists, but it does raise the issue of the origin of the categorised differences in our population. Where does this vocabulary of belonging come from? I ventured Smith’s argument about the ethnic origin of nations IN GENERAL but no-one seems interested in taking it up. To make it clear: even if you play by the rules, you are still not really a proper Australian. You are a hyphenated Australian at best, a recognition that can be withdrawn by members of the core group if they feel you have not conformed sufficiently

PART TWO
Further: why the attack on ‘wogs’, too, after all? Who were they hurting? Without the Croats, we would not be in the soccer world cup!

To point out – and prove with quotations – that Arabs and Muslims have been vilified is not to paint them as victims. As I wrote, the issue is complex, and this vilification is PART of the answer. Certainly, I did not deny the objectionable behaviour of Australian youths of Lebanese descent, but let’s be real. We are talking about a few hundreds blokes, and yet their actions are taken as a pretext to demonise entire communities and bang on about mutliculturalism. And to launch a pogrom. What is going on here? It’s a police problem, not a social crisis. And who are we to lecture the cops? I think they know what they are doing. What do the commentariat know about policing issues? Nothing!

Boaz_David appears to endorse the provocation thesis. There is not doubt that he feels provoked, judging by the expletive in his posting and his nasty email to me. You have an unhealthy obsession with Jews, sir. I encounter this sort of thing often in teaching the Holocaust. But before you cut yourself shaving about the supposed power of the Jews, ask yourself whether a Jewish family would call their son ‘Dirk’. Du musst tiefer Denken, Junge!

There is a lot of almost wilful anti-intellectualism in our society, a rage against critical reflection, as our truckie friend Keith exhibits: we who do real mens’ work, doing it tough in the real world know better than you smarty-pants, pansy academics. But consider this: academics live in communities, too. They have plenty of real life experience. I’ve actually been to Lebanon (and survived to tell!). We don’t just teach Middle Eastern and European history, for instance, we negotiate it every day in our relationships with those who are different from each of us individually. Making a nation of equals out of a multi-ethnic population is a challenge that does not admit easy answers. There is a lot of hatred out there.

Little wonder that cultural ghettos develop in Australia.

Our country has consistently encouraged immigration to provide the work force needed for National Development which could not have been achieved otherwise.

Pioneering development focused on Gold Mining and Agriculture as the Gold Rushes of the mid 19th Century lured people with an adventurous spirit and changed the migration from a penal colony to a promising new Nation.

My Ancestors came for both reasons and ethnic communities grew in towns throughout Australia founded by ethnic minorities who relied on the diverse skills available within their community. With necessity being the mother of invention, Australian communities made incredible contributions to innovative inventions.

But migration in the last half century has concentrated new families in urban fringes that are fast becoming ghettos.
In this situation it is small wonder that ethnic clashes occur
Australian Culture is a work in progress. We are not 'old' enough to be able to honestly say there IS such thing as an Australian Culture which will only be created by the evolution of Multiculturism.

This means there has to be respect for each others beliefs whether it is the modest covering up of moslem women or the sun worship of beach goers.

We would do well to recognise that Australia is fast becoming a land of White Racists who still cannot accept that this land belongs to an Ethnic Minority of Black, Australian Aborigines who are still being treated as squatters in their own land.....

Dirk

I have not responded to your article yet. I have been busy in my business. Nothing to do with trucks. My family business comes into contact with many truckies and I deal with them...much to critical for inexperienced people. I cannot undertake physical work any longer and work in development of new machinery and ad-bloody-ministration. I do one good and the other badly but we're not doing it too tough.
I am not anti-intellectualism I am anti much that is dressed up to be intellectual but fails. I, like most, rant against uncritical or eroneous assessment and it's presentation.

My son and his mates are studying fields such as Pharmacy, Applied Science (Various), Mathematics, Engineering, Law, education etc. I am especially proud when they borrow my books and occassionally include me in their informal discussions on a whole gamut of subjects from the ancient Greeks to Freud. No-one dares talk Marx or post modernism to me :-) (Yep in my home I censor some topics.)

I don't think you smarty pants or pansy...far from it.

I went to a pub in West End Wednesday. My youngsters went to the Ballet. We all survived those experiences. Mine was richest by a long way.

There is also a lot of hatred in articles published on this site. But that really is best dealt with self examination and not finger pointing. I, just like you, don't think we are equal and I don't think that can realistically be expected to occur. The best we could hope for is our offspring to apply attitudes our grandparents would never tolerate.

Bozzie, you ask an important question: namely, how many people have no idea of their racial origins. The answer is ‘how many people are confident of their racial purity’. I might add ‘how many people want to maintain their racial purity’. Apparently, Bozzie will be the first in the queue. It is interesting that you say you are concerned by cultural integrity but you express that concern in terms of race. Whether it is race or culture I am afraid that if you scratch you will find that the cultural integrity that you believe Australia had prior to multiculturalism is simply a myth. There are no ‘origins’ and there is no ‘integrity’. I know my own Irish ancestors who came to Australia early in the nineteenth century never felt any sense of cultural security. And I know that as late as the 1950s my Anglo-Scottish ancestors did not get on with them (an understatement). The Australia about which you dream never existed. It was invented in the post-50s fear of the new outsiders.
I wonder what place my own children should have in the nation that you imagine. Their mother is an Arab (arghh! - one of those terrible French ones that we hear about on this site) Should I tell that them that they are half-ozzies?
Bel

Dear Dirk
I can see in the short term at least that we are going to ‘come to blows’... the verbal kind :)
In the spirit of robust debate, I will bypass any lengthy defense of my ‘nasty’ email (as you characterize it) most of which was actually in my POST to this forum.
What I attacked in that email and my post was your reasoning, and I raised some questions as to why that reasoning may have been (in my opinion) skewed. I would hardly call that ‘nasty’. Learn to roll with the punches Dirk, as we all have to.

Now.. your article. Lets subject it to some further scrutiny.

You wrote that Andrew Morton in The Australian described

Lebanese Australian men are members of “gangs” while the youths of Anglo-Cronulla are merely “beachgoers”

Sure, he did use such a sentence, but you could have chosen this one from his same article:

“They (some of the vocal/violent anglo’s) understood that a riot wasn't the way to deal with their anger at misbehaving Lebanese gangs.”

Which clearly shows that the anger of the Anglo ‘beach goers’ was directed not against the Lebanese community as a whole, but against the GANGS. Why does he mention gangs ?
Perhaps because they exist ? The Arncliff boys, Telopea st Boys, Punchbowl boys etc.
Every suburb has its ‘boys’ along with the name of the suburb. There are white ‘boys’ and ethnic ‘boys’. We have them in Melbourne.

Apparently those gangs were coming down looking for trouble each weekend. (did you miss those reports ?) So, it seems to me that you were intent on characterizing Anglo Aussies as racist, and Media reports as biased, and wished to support that view by selective quotes which suited your purpose. To do so is a racist act. (-also nasty)and we reject it.

FYI My attitude to Jews is found in Romans 9 why not read it ? http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&version=31
I have an aversion to ANY group (including Anglos and Germans) using its ethnic power for UNjust manipulation of others. (Opium Trade/Wars! Anglos+Jews)

Boaz wrote: "FYI My attitude to Jews is found in Romans 9"

BD - can you not even formulate an opinion without the bible?

How about:

<<my attitude to Jews is based on live and let live, just are there a good and bad christians there are good and bad Jews>>?

You make a great deal of noise about not being racist - yet you continue to label.

One would hope that contributors to discussion on OLO posts could do so with an open mind, not dependent on reference to scripture. The last refuge for people who don't have an argument or the ability to debate. An immediate indication of their dogmatism whilst claiming to be free thinkers.
Don't despair, they expose themselves for what they are.

BD,

The last two posts have been directed at you mainly. Have you registered them?

What was nasty was not your misreading of the Norton and other articles, not even the silly accusation that my reading is racist. It was your inappropriate question about my own ethnicity. For someone with an unhealthy interest in Jews, your choice of OLO name is interesting.

But to deal with the media bais: it does not matter what some Anglos said the day after the pogrom. The question is why it was targeted at all 'Leb' and 'Wog' looking people. It's the excess that needs explaining, and you've not addressed it once. I suspect you won't -- or can't -- because it would threaten your embattled sense of national identity. Who is the 'we' you speak about in your last posting? Does it include Lebs and Wogs?

It's the origin of such distinctions that I've asked you to reflect on a few times now. Critical reflection is hard for us all. It requires, above all, difficult emotional work, distancing ourselves from cherished fantasies about how great 'our group' is. Every group/ethnicity/nationality tends to collective narcissism, especially when it feels threatened. That goes for those Australian-Lebanese gangs no less than for the Anglo ones.

It is entirely appropriate that the press and public revile those revenge attacks on 12 December. The problem is the way it is reported. Paul Sheehan's language in the Herald yesterday was typical of the poor analyses and language choice of so many journalists. What do these gangs have to do with ALP branch stacking? Nothing. And why write ‘belligerent swarms of young Lebanese men’ to describe those youths who are Australian. Swarming is how you write about animals. Yes, I know there is primitive behaviour, and I have female friends who've had a hard time at Bankstown station because of it. Addressing these problems won't be furthered by the hysterical commentaries of Sheehan and his ilk. What is your constructive contribution, BD?

Dear Boaz_David

Yarweh & Son here. We have some familiarity with the tracts you use and abuse. J and I have tried to teach love and respect for all my children. But here you are again suspecting all and sundry of being Jewish as if that were an abomination and relevant to discussion. This is crude and vulgar sociology of knowledge. Crude, because it assumes substantive arguments are appropriately engaged by reducing them to the personal circumstances of those who are enunciating them. Vulgar, because we have observed how you repeatedly do this specifically in regard to those you suspect of being Jewish. This is plain nasty, and unbefitting of a committed Christian. You have chosen to identify with your Scottish roots and the Christian side of my ethical teaching. That is wonderful, but only if honourably witnessed. Remember, there are many ways of serving me. Neither forget nor deride your own Jewish ancestry, as your distinctive Jewish name bears witness. “Sit thee under the Boaz (Boab) tree,” as I once instructed. Thou shalt remember, too, my beloved J.’s message was to “turn the other cheek”, not show it.

Peace be with you…especially whilst shaving

Dirk

Part 1

pogrom
n : organized persecution of an ethnic group

Riot

n : a disturbance of the peace created by an assemblage of usually three or more people acting with a common purpose and in a violent and tumultuous manner to the terror of the public;

So was it a riot or a pogrom?

I never knew Sir Nicholas Shehadie or Premier Bracks were of Lebanese extraction. I in my ignorance I just thought they were Australians with unusual names…like mine.
As Australians I think Sir Nicholas a great bloke, a true leader and a terrific second rower but Premier Bracks an awful Premier and a disgraceful politician, I don’t know if he played footie… .
Who is Marie Bashir? Is she the equivalent of Queensland’s Quentin Bryce but with a couple of irrelevant differences? Did she play footie?

There are many ways of attacking your arguments but I prefer a positive outlook to refute them. Even though I thought and thought I found nothing I could say rivals the laid back and positive view Australians take and which is so forthrightly expressed in the following quoted post. This is the sort of thing my breviloquent truckie mates would say if really offended. Those are the people you disparage with the half smart inferences contained in the following:

‘There is a lot of almost wilful anti-intellectualism in our society, a rage against critical reflection, as our truckie friend Keith exhibits: we who do real mens’ work, doing it tough in the real world know better than you smarty-pants, pansy academics.’

Mate I wouldn't call my truckie mates narssistic, especially the shelias. After they had enquired what it mean’t they would have a good old fashioned laugh at you for your stupidity in labelling them something they know they aren’t. You’d be regarded as a fool for mouthing such inappropriate insults. They would sense your ego couldn’t handle such contempt and they would know you’d spit the dummy and turn violent … towards them all

Part 2.

Now the real deal, the true blue, listen attentively, for what follows is fair dinkum from the heart…it is Australia talking…with special thanks to VGC.

‘…this is an important debate for the future of our counrty, and we owe it to our children to get it right, what's right ? to be honest I struggle to know what is right anymore because I find myself in a quandary, on the one hand I want the typical easy going Aussie that gives everybody a fair go, on the other hand the easy going nature is being tested by being continuedly being told that I'm racist, that my country is racist, that my culture is not worth a pinch of crap, and that I should be ashamed of being born a "white Australian", because we must have somehow been born with the racist gene !, well okay I think to myself lets be fair, how much ownership of these accusations do I take on board ?, but while I sit and try to be honest with my part in this, I find I can't even get out of the blocks in this thought process, because you cannot examine your own behaviour in a disagreement if you are the only side that's doing the examining, the way this is heading is more and more tolerant easy going Aussie's will treat this like a joke and will not even engage in debate because it is just too ridiculous for words, it's like listening to some fool like germaine greer lament how racist Australia is without doing some heavy hitting on some of the horrendous racsism,bigorty,child abuse and womans rights atrocities that go unchecked as "cultures" all around the world, go to town on these poeple and then I will start to listen otherwise you are just a fake and a coward !’

If your visit to Lebanon didn’t include at least fleeting visits to the Bekkar Valley or Southern Lebanon, by this collective voice, you’d be indicted as not just a fake and a coward but also an effete fake coward.

Dirk
thanx for the reminder to focus on specific parts of your article. It was not easy to locate the appropriate points to argue at first, because it is quite obviously the result of considerable research through various media stories. I’ll try to do better this time.

‘Media bias’ or ‘Anglo racism’ ? you seemed to suggest it was both. You asked me to explain the following:

<<Why “it” was targeted at all 'Leb' and 'Wog' looking people>>

What was ‘it’ ? “It” was a rally, aimed at peaceful protest over anti social behaviour by some elements of the Lebanese Muslim community (primarily). But ‘it’ was also infiltrated and hijacked by racist nationalist and neo nazi elements, so in the end ‘it’ was a was a many colored coat, not a simple monotone ‘pogrom’ by Anglos. The primary peaceful protest rally was organized by evangelical Christians.. (my mob) believe it or not.

Point taken about some reporting.. the media is in it for the ratings which translate into ‘advertising’ bucks... right.

Now what happened between the ‘goal’ and the ‘event’ ? Simple, groups with a vested political interest saw an opportunity to further their cause and ‘tacked’ themselves on, shifted the emphasis with the sms campaign, and hijacked it. Those most vocal, featured on the media, were not the Christian organizers. There is no racism “in Christ”. (refer “Race riots, Multiculturalism and the Gospel”)

So, to answer your question about why ‘all’ Lebs and Wogs were targeted, we need to know ‘by whom’ and your answer is in the above paragraph... the hijackers. Why indeed ‘wogs’.. ? I also ask. Well, it conveniently suits the racist fringe.

Constructive solutions ? (see my posts on Immigration, Settlement, Civics, Culture and socially positive discrimination) Teaching civics and cultural manners AND that there is a prevailing culture here which should be respected (one value being ‘fair go’).
P.S. my nick is due to undying admiration for the characters. (I’ll speak against Jew or Gentile as did the prophets, if their Jewishness or Gentileness is a factor in the ill treatment of others.)

Not a progrom. I do not think whites feel a majority in southern sydney anymore. Maybe more like aborigines, having to change their culture because many feel their culture is nothing of any importance so not worth protecting or respected.

Verdent

Aussies have gottten through worse than this, look at what our convict forfathers suffered and see our history ....all about getting up and on, and pride in what we built here in Oz.

Dirk:
Swarming is a recognised military tactic.
Not having read the article I can't comment on the context Paul Sheehan had in mind. From Wikipedia at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarming_(Military)

"Swarming is a military strategy in which a military force attacks an enemy from several different directions and then regroups."

Anyway, this is largely irrelevant.

More interesting is what precisely your constructive contribution is?

BD, your constructive post is appreciated. I will track down your contributions on other article-discussions.

Mr P. Pig, do you really think Sheehan understands the military definition of swarming? Or that the youths about which he writes do as well? Don't be so naive.

Keith, when are you going to write the critique you so grandly announced a few days ago? And can you do it by yourself, that is, without constantly referring to your trucky mates? Are they your Greeek chorus? The test of authentic Aussieness. Any 'wogs' or 'lebs' among them? Don't you have a mind of your own?

Which pub are you drinking at in West End? I'm from Brisbane, I know them.

No, Marie Bashir did not play footy. The Governor of NSW was professor of psychiatry at the University of Sydney. I doubt that her parents censored what she read as as uni student.

Above all, remember this: an argument is better than the 'We Aussies are victims of the PC-set in the unis, ABC and SBS' whinge that you proffer. For the hyper masculine character you pose yourself as, it's wimpy stuff. And get real, whites RUN this country. But remember, no-one on this thread has been accusing you, let alone all Australians, of vicious racism. Greg Barnes' stupid article is hardly typical. So where does your paranoia come from? Looks like wounded narcissism to me...

I myself am happy to be Australian, I cheer at the cricket and the rugby (have spent many hours at the 'Gabba, Ballymore, and Lang Park), but does nationality have to be the most important emotion in our lives?

And yes, I did visit those places in Lebanon. The Hizbollah flags with the AK47S were everywhere, along with flags depicting 'the martyrs'. Why don't you tell us about your trip there, mate? Display before us your courage -- at least the courage to advance an argument rather than a self-piyting rant -- before you accuse others of cowardice.

Dirk... your post is also appreciated.

As I said.. we will only come to 'blows' initially and verbally..
I see it all in the spirit of empassioned debate -nothing personal.

I should forewarn you about my position. I mentioned 'socially positive discrimination' as being one of my points. I thought I'd dangled a red rad in front of a bull there actually :)

I'm sure you will find much to disagree with in my various posts. All I ask is that any response is backed up by both sound history and anthropology, rather than current trends in opinion regarding such concepts as 'human rights'.

I'm rather cynical about the UN and its fancy declarations. I don't see 'International law' as being any more viable than the willingness of states to accomodate it, and most states care more about their vested national/tribal interests than any idealistic legal code which could threaten it.

I put more faith in a Nation State which has a firm foundation in the Judao Christian/Magna Carta stream of history, along with a fearless prophetic voice directed at its leaders, in the tradition of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos (chapter1 and 2 are fantastic). but one needs a map to 'get' exactly how he works. (hint.. big circle then 'bulls-eye')

When ethics and morality and values are promoted by secular forces, they can speak with no greater authority than 'opinion'. But this is what differentiated Christ from all others..."This man speaks with Authority"

I am not seeking a Theocracy, but a 'renewed' state from within. In the same way that the Word spread among the Roman Empire up to Constantine. For me, that renewal comes when a life is given over to God in Christ, in humility and repentance. A view I realize is not shared by all.

So clearly, I stand a bit on the 'outer' of mainstream thinking on most social issues.
warm regards

Dirk:

Naiveté aside, I notice that you are remarkably light with the detail of any meaningful solutions, still. One begins to get suspicious at this point that you may be a touch hypocritical.

PP,
Would that you make points instead of trying haplessly to score them.
I don't believe tidy solutions exist; see the second half of my article.

I am trying to show how complex the issues are. We need to exhibit humility before them rather than hubris. Educating oneself about them is a good start, though.

Why don't you commence with Ghassan Hage, _Against Paranoid Nationalism_ (Pluto Press, 2003)? It will cost you less than carton of tinnies.

As to the here and now, I agree with 'bel's' second posting above. He seems to have silenced 'bozzie'.

BD,
Plainly, we have different viewpoints on these weighty matters. Let us not waste time trying to convert one another. As Ali G would say, [here's] respect, mun.

Dirk

It is great that you are responding to your critics. It forces the discussions to be focused.

Such a pity that so few articles manage to achieve a degree of coherence in the comments that followed.

Great article. Hope to read more of yours.

chek

Meredith,

Yes everyone has gone through far worse. Just trying to tell it how it is. South and Southwestern Sydney I do not think qualify as having anglo dominance. That is my point. Many suburbs I would say have no dominance of any culture. People become isolated in such communties. Everyone gets along just fine except there is little community that involves everyone. Though full of people from so many cultures it is in fact a cultural void.

People in the Sutherland Shire don't want to have this cultural carnage happen to them. I can't blame them. They did not articulate very well but I hear all about it everyday and know that the Sutherland Shire has attracted people who love the lifestyle. They see just across the river rapid fire changes over such a short period and it does incite xenophobia. But understandly so. If some people are told they have no right to their culture they will fight back. And over and over again people who dislike the so called Australian culture tell these people their culutre is some sort of myth. Someone above made this comment.

However there is a very real culture and that we may all not want to embrace but who is anyone to dictate culture to anyone? It can and does created problems that last decades and centuries as in the case of aborigines.

No progrom. Not at all.

Keith, I thought I saw two good posts from you this morning. I was formulating a response, but now I see they are gone. What happened to them?

Dirk

My rather terse response was only 1400 words.

Apparently I broke the forum rules by posting four posts across two threads. I'm awaiting clarification from the Software engineer. I want to now post two parts on your thread today and two parts tomorrow. But I'm checking before I post.

I've received a first and final warning so I'm going to go into my shell and become less extrovert. I was going to say become conservative but that would sure as hell be misinterpreted.

Btw I think Lebanon would have been an adrenalin pumping experience... I've never been there but I would have loved to have gone there in the late 60's or early 70's before the time of the green line. I have a little contact in Brisbane with families who came here in those times. Tough and fair in business and beaut socially.

Hopefully my posts will materialise on your thread soon. I look forward to your considered response.

I do have a very manly mien. It has it's curses and it's blessings. I've learned to live comfortably with both.

Dirk I noticed an apology from OLO to Alan Jones.. for you attributing words to him in your article which were in fact uttered by another Journo... maybe I was a bit hasty in applauding your detailed analysis :)

KEITH why not write to Dirk directly ? his web site is on the public record.

Dirk. yes, I'm sure we disagree about a few things. In my case I don't accept that 'no discrimination' is a noble or sensible goal. Mainly because we discriminate every day against particular forms of behaviour and belief.
So, 'socially positive discrimination', is that which is based on sound principles of social cohesian etc.. (ala Geoffry Blainey who I heard yesterday was 'on' about this in the past)

If I may direct your attention to another post of mine, (Out of Africa thread) which includes A MULTI CULTURAL EXPERIENCE.. TODAY as part of it, you will see a personal anecdote from yesterday regarding some Australians of Cypriot background.

It might seem noble and praiseworthy to have a 100% non discriminatory immigration policy, and this might be workable IF and ONLY if, settlement policy is pro-actively managed. Example Putting 750 sudanese refugees in Toowoomba was an act of culpable stupidity that they will regret severely. Placing small numbers in VARIOUS towns and making location a condition of assylum for 5 yrs or something, giving them a chance to integrate non threateningly would have been far better.

I take serious issue with 'ideological incompatability' which I would extend to members of the communist party even today. Why ? simple- I see how they had infiltrated the union movement, promising unsustainable outcomes (simply to gain power) which will destroy business viability and the jobs they provide. They don't care if the businesses are destroyed, as long as the dialectic proceeds towards creating conditions of unrest more likely to promote proletarian revolution.

I have similar issues with Islam, (In spite of what you might be told by 'mainstream' Muslims) but not with Buddhism or most other non Christian religions as they don't seek to establish a 'Buddhist State' etc

First, thanks Chek for your encouraging posting!

Second, ok, Keith, I'll sit tight. I too would have liked to have visited Beirut in the early 70s, but I was still in shorts.

Third, the Jones issue: I took the quotation from an article in the HERALD. In the event, the quotation was not by Jones by by another radio talk backer, that is, the HERALD article was wrong.

Fourth, BD, I'll take a look at your other postings, but as I wrote before, I don't think we'll be able to convert one another.

Have a nice day,

Boaz, I have of late held back from continuing to remark upon the dangerous course you have set yourself, but the symptoms are still there, I'm afraid. Clearly, you still haven't read "My Life".

The fact remains that your concept of "'socially positive discrimination'... based on sound principles of social cohesian etc" is little different from the rallying cries of tyrants through the ages.

In order to control the actions of his followers, a would-be tyrant first selects a concept that can be painted in the colours of "a common enemy". It doesn't much matter what this is, since his power of rhetoric and persuasion - based upon an intimate understanding of the irresistibility of fear as a motivator - will cover over any cracks in the logic. The enemy has been identified over the years in many different forms, Jews and communists, capitalists and blacks, gypsies and Philip Ruddock. It really isn't significant which the tyrant chooses, as it is pretty easy to identify elements to fear in any situation.

At any given opportunity, our tyrant will bang his drum of fear, pointing out how the common enemy is threatening livelihoods, comfort, safety, security, health, financial well-being, traffic congestion, whatever. The message is delivered as often as possible to the audience, who then mindlessly repeat the "danger, danger" mantra to each other, in a process of continual mutual reinforcement.

If the fear button is pressed hard enough, at some point the non-believers become a minority, or are persuaded to become neutral observers. That is when the movement's own personal Kristallnacht is either manufactured or allowed to happen. Again, it is irrelevant what form this takes – a boatload of refugees will do nicely – as it is simply a symbol, underlining the fear factor.

Boaz, don't let the fear of different ideas, and people with different ideas, lead you down this path.

I am sure you are not a tyrant, but I can see you very easily becoming a tyrant's willing follower.

Part 1 of 4.

Parts 1 and 2 are posted today and parts 3 and 4 will be posted tomorrow

Dirk

You raised the spectre of the pogrom when you started ‘bagging’ the Devine sheila.
You laid the blame for the alleged pogrom upon Australians when you said:
‘Pogroms are violent attacks by majorities against minorities.’ and when you continued in the same paragraph describing the behaviour the majorities exhibited in a pogrom the racist inference then arose because you never isolated the behaviour to the few people involved at Cronulla. Your inference, either intentional or unintentional, was the majority of Australians were involved in a pogrom. That inference was then reinforced throughout your article.

That in any truckers language says you’re labelling Australians, including me, racist.

That was one of the prime points of your article. The sentiments you expressed in your article up to that point were well reasoned and reasonable. It gave you ‘cred’ but once you embarked on your journey of bagging people and the racist slur there really was no going back. You became critical of Australia and Australians. You attempted to equate the media and it’s writers and their attitudes with Australians and their attitudes.

‘…senior journalists and other elites are now effectively justifying it in the same way as the authorities of central and eastern Europe did a century…’

One point: You may have said it’s jurno’s etc who are doing the justifying etc but the behaviour they are justifying you attribute by inference to lots of other Aussies and they’re not all ‘Anglos’ and they weren’t at Cronulla.

‘By identifying the Lebanese-Australian community’s supposed inability to integrate, by focusing on the bad beach behaviour of youths “of middle eastern appearance”… Now Australian media leaders are excusing the wrath of the people here.’

Two points: (1) Do you see how you repeated blaming the people for the wrath and not just the few at Cronulla. (2) I haven’t seen real wrath since my Dad’s smoked Christmas leg of ham was carved up and eaten by a bunch of his beer-sodden best bowling mates

Part 2 of 4

‘Moreover, the ethnic self-defense of the native born is natural and normal; it should not be pathologised by what that newspaper recklessly calls “the multiculturalism industry” (whatever that is). The problem, we must conclude, is the supposed inability of Lebanese-Australian youths to assimilate’
Three points: (1) that ethnic self-defense isn’t only exhibited by native born, it’s exhibited by the community which includes your ‘wogs’.
(2) I’d dispute community attitudes reflect your assertions re an assumed divide between wogs and Australians. That attitude died a natural death not long after Malcolm Fraser formalised our Multicultural Policy.
(2) Despite your denials, you’re part of the multiculturalist industry. You assume you own it. That’s so wrong. We all own it. My mates don’t assess people on their ethnicity. It’s on such things as reliability, truthfulness, decency, self-awareness etc. If they condemn anyone it’s because of some unfathomable feeling or some bloody obvious quirk of character. And you’d be condemned for being roundly out of touch. Equally, exhibit some humility, and you’d be forgiven. I don’t really know what ethnicity my mates are…it’s not an issue.
(3) We haven’t concluded a problem of assimilation but rather the behaviour of the Lebanese Arab Muslim youth gangs and the refusal of their community to condemn their behaviour.

Your particular spin shows you are not listening to the people. Those people you so erroneously cast as racist. Most of us don’t read the papers. They contain too much crap. They are not representative of us. Much like OLO on this issue. You’ve read too much into what the papers say.

‘But why are Australians of Muslim Lebanese descent the despised “other”, and why now? The reasons are complex, certainly more complex than pointing to the lawless hill tribes of northern Lebanon. Part of the answer lies in the local reaction to the geopolitical situation since the 9-11 and Bali attacks. In their wake, a blatant exercise of cultural exclusion has gone on against Australian Muslims and Arabs by the media commentariat’

No bloody wonder we don’t read the papers? Why do you bother?

Keith, thanks for that, looks very interesting. I'll wait til 4 of 4 are in before responding. I also received your email, but my acknowledging reply was bounced back for some reason. Cheers.

•About our ethnic mates and media constructions of invisible whiteness.

While commendable that many Australians pride themselves on not seeing the ‘ethnicity’ of the ‘mates’ they inherently know (and like to proclaim loudly like its a public service broadcast) when someone is not ‘all Australian’, and one often hears pronouncements by 'real Australians' (and ‘Ethnic' assimilators alike) that others or themselves are ’half Lebanese’Aboriginal, a quarter this or that.

This is a language that is very much embedded into the rituals of nationalism - these are rationalisations that intimately linked right back to the first fleet. My point is that this is measured up against notions of purity of “Australianness” a purity that is Anglo, white and unquestionable authenticity.

By denying race and racialization plays a role in how public discourses play out in situations mayt give comfort to our self flagellating egalitarianisms, but it denies whole chunks of social history.

As I’ve stated in previous posts, white Australians do think of themselves as a dominant ethnic group and often refuse to see this same ethnicity as dominant and causative to how Australian society is organised and plays a pivotal role in how they go about discussing issue of race and ethnicity. I’m not ascribing blame, just naming what I see happening every time issues of race and ethnicity become national issues of concern.
Of course not one wants to be called a racist, but this doesn’t mean racism is not at play, however benign and or latent.

When news media report on these issues they lend from a long history of reporting on issues, a glossary of ready made language triggers and texts that do not identity and keep comfortable white Australian notions of their invisible‘ethnicity’. In other words white Australian need to get comfortable with discussing these issues as racial issues – this also requires them to name and understanding their own social, cultural and ethnic agency in a much more sophisticated way than they do now. And the media can play a pivotal role in this as well. I think this is what Dirk is on about

Thanks Rainier for a useful contribution. It is a welcome change from the reactionary knee-jerk posts that are more about justifying one's own political/ethnic/racial/ stance

Rainer

Sorry, it has nothing to do with race. If so the Chinese would be the target as they are far more dominant in south and south western sydney. It is purely cultural and religous.

I am, along with so many others are sick of this race issue. Religion is not a race. Culture should NOT be legalised and cultural changed forced upon people as if it is a race issue. religion SHOULD NEVER be forced on to people. End of story.

Try to undertstand the difference.

Verdant, Convince me that it isn't racism. Simply expressing indignation that I do not wish to identify these phenomena your way is not enough.

To me this is a new racism that is much more subtle and even depersonalizes prejudice against persons of colour. It is still prejudice based on notions of racial inferiority.

This new racism represents and articulates itself as increasing intolerance towards cultural and ethnic diversity. The rioters I saw on TV were very clear about who they wanted to target and they didn’t in this by declaring ‘culture’. It was directed toward Lebs, wogs, and anyone who wasn’t white it seemed. I saw no Koori's amougst them.

Even cultural anthropologists who study cultures would agree that hate is not simply motivated by cultural differences alone. You don't explain how it not racial but simply defer to cultural explanations because it feels less morally corrupt.

To those of us that know racism (and pretending to be colour/culture blind is one form of racism) this convenient segway into cultrualism sticks out a mile. Racism is racism and calling it for what it is – is the first step to fixing it.

How exactly do we eradicate 'racism'? It is hardly a fixed state, it is more fluid and transient, insidious and overt 'emotion'. Our dear friend Rainier may be expressing a more passive kind of racism towards whites, and the Cronulla troublemakers a more overt 'racism' towards leb 'aussies".

I personally think racism is another word for anger (one that is directed towards another's ethnicity). We all know we can be angry one day, happy another - we are all guilty as hell!

How is the Black Panther movement these days Rainier? BLACK POWER, I SAY!

Anyway, Dirk Moses needs to get a head check. Ethnic violence is now a reality in Australia. All sorts of 'gangs' (kids from dysfunctional families usually), Cambo Clowns (Cambodians), FOB's (fresh off the boats)and assorted stupid names they can come up with. In fact the other night there was a machete attack downtown Springvale (a HOLE - thank god I left): I am a perfect example of 'white flight' with no shame whatsoever. Sudanese refugees are planned to be dumped in my area, yay, they fit in so well?

Part 3 of 4

Parts 1 and 2 were posted yesterday

We don’t give a damn about the 9/11 atrocity or the Bali murders any longer, that’s your domain.
We don’t give a damn about the hill tribes in Northern Lebanon and even less about their alleged lawlessness. We have enough of our own to deal with. Lawlessness not hill tribes. We don’t give a damn about the geo – whatever. That’s just generalised verbage. We don’t despise anyone on any basis unless it is in accordance with the terms noted above. Nor do we exclude anyone unless it is on the same terms and we’ve pointed out the anguish they cause but they just carry on and on and on without listening.
What we care about is that some duckheads want to run around attacking women and surf-lifesavers with apparent impunity from prosecution and with no condemnation from their kith and kin. And make a mental note lot’s of that behaviour pre-dated 11 September 2001.

Is Piers that fat bloke? (With thank’s to Fatty.)

‘…uncovering the female body and having access to it’…Christ, most of my male mates would laugh at the pomposities contained in that remark and the women would grin and sneer at the inferences. They prefer to think they’d shared theirs, not given mere access.

‘I don’t pretend to have the answers…’ Yes you do. But it‘s the wrong answer. You blame us as racist. That’s not an answer it only antagonises us and that will result in, as VGC says, we

‘Aussies will treat this like a joke and will not even engage in debate because it is just too ridiculous for word’

Your conclusion confirmed the point of your article. You think we Aussies are racist, the white ones sit atop your imagined ethnic hierarchy and we should all allow some Australians to behave outside our common laws. ‘Given the persistence of an ethnic hierarchy, it is not as simple as asking everyone to play by the rules?’ Why not? Your less than simple suggestion is not the way it is in our Australia

Part 4

Bashir and Shehadie were husband and wife.
Brice is Governor of Queensland and would have made a wonderful hooker.
There’s only ever been one pub in West End… The Melbourne.

I don’t censor reading choices. I’m simply too busy to discuss idiotic ideas. (How’s the comprehension?). You have a problem with my manliness? I don’t have to prove mine by talking about my strengths. You don’t like the way I express myself? …go indulge in a self-examination.
I haven’t been whinging as you depicted. (Comprehension is becoming an issue between us.) I am whinging you labelled me racist because of the behaviour of a few violent Anglos in Cronulla. I’m whinging about the excuses proffered for the behaviour of Lebanese Muslim youth gangs in Sydney. Your article excuses that behaviour too,
‘… it is not surprising that many Muslim Lebanese Australians feel alienated from mainstream culture. Not a week passes when some talk-back jock calls for them to profess their loyalty to the country. In some cases, plainly, the message has been internalised: we Lebanese Muslim youths are indeed foreigners here.’
I’m whinging about the lack of condemnation from the Lebanese Arab Muslim community. You ignore that, yet you condemn the Anglo Australians at Cronulla and Australians who weren’t.

Throughout your article you transferred media attitudes onto us Australians. Do you really think they reflect our attitudes? No? Then clearly say so. We’ve probably more in common with you than you realise. Do you see yourself as engaged in a pogrom or racist? No…neither do we...you or us.

If we both have courage… we’d undertake an exercise in self-criticism …like VGC…you’d retract your aspersion. I’d re-assess my insults and offer a retraction too…and we’d part peaceably but may still dislike each others attitudes but we’d contain any enmity…mate.

Is mine an entrenched position? Probably, but the truth mostly is.

I played footie and cricket sadly not at the ‘Gabba, Ballymore or Lang Park.

My Aussie chorus would be aghast at my spouting of opinions so publicly.

I’m an immigrant. Where from? No-one gives a rats…, for I’m Australian!

Dear Keith
I always value and appreciate your posts. They clearly relfect thought and research... but this bit.. could do with a bit of reflection

"…Christ, most of my male mates would laugh"

as Craig Blanch gave me a 'nudge' about using a capital 'i' for indigenous, may I humbly give you a nudge here ? :)

C.T. STUDD who was one of the Cambridge Seven (top cricketers and graduates who gave up their careers to goto China as missionaries)
once said
"If Christ be God, and died for me, no sacrifice I can make can be too great for Him"

He followed through on that and lived and served to his dying breath among the Africans in Congo,

"Difficulties, dangers, disease, death, or divisions don't deter any but Chocolate Soldiers from executing God's Will. When someone says there is a lion in the way, the real Christian promptly replies, "That's hardly enough inducement for me; I want a bear or two besides to make it worth my while to go." C.T.STUDD

http://www.wholesomewords.org/missions/mscambridge7.html

In other words.. "Christ" is close to many our hearts.

Keep up the good work mate... appreciated

Davo, for once you're correct about something, yes racism is more fluid and transient, insidious and overt 'emotion' and this is my point. To depend solely on culture and cultural explanations infers a intransigence in social and cultural relations between protagonists. Yes common ground can be made between cultures but this can only truly be meaningful once both sides admit their racism inform their ideas and actions. Racism has a longer history (at least since the advent of the West) than cultural dichotomies and conflict. It’s only a small leap from thinking someone's religious or cultural expressions or beliefs are in inadequate and inferior to ascribing these same inadequacies to biological determininants of how people look and speak and then rationalising this with a historical overview that gives it logical persuasion.

I am not arguing for a Left Liberal multiculturalism (which tends to exoticize everything and everyone) but rather a critical race examination of cultural differences.
For this to happen we all require a much more sophisticated understanding of what racism is. This requires the dominant cultural group to understand its own racial construction and ethnicity objectively. In this case a question I ask is , “What does it mean to be white, (besides never having to explain what it means to be white).

Simply saying 'I'm Australian' avoids deeper interogations into these important questions about power and privlidge.

Again, I sense this is the same frustration that Dirk Moses has in regards to media representations and commentary on the riots. But he does not go this far in his analysis (and he should have). What held him back is indeed interesting

Keith,

Outlining your case in this systematic way greatly improves the focus of this discussion. I am sure all are grateful for the trouble to which you have gone. Given the word limit, I shall omit discussions of gender till tomorrow.

1. You contend that my argument about pogroms implicates all Australians and is therefore racist. After rereading what I wrote, I can see how you came to this conclusion. My expression was clumsy. I should have written that pogroms are conducted by MEMBERS OF the majority IN ITS NAME against a subordinate minority.

The condemnation of the violence in all sections of Australian society was palpable. And yet the relationship of the majority of Australians (whose core comprises Anglos, Rainier rightly notes) to the pogromists is ambivalent, as I tried to suggest (but without adequate precision). “While we condemn their violence, we also UNDERSTAND the reasons for it.” That is why the media, and you it appears as well, subscribe to the provocation thesis I mentioned in my article. And that is why you persist in suggesting that the attack on the lifesavers and, allegedly, on [our?] women is the cause of the pogrom. Once again, I have to ask, how do you explain the excess of the event, namely, that ALL Mediterranean-looking people were targeted and not just THOSE SPECIFIC men who committed the assaults?

2. Now the same temptation to, in effect, excuse the subsequent revenge attacks confronts the Lebanese Muslim community. Why? Because that is the nature of group life. We can’t escape it, because our individual identities are also constituted by our group membership(s). That is why we feel intense pride or shame for the actions of other members of our group (ethnicity, nationality, religion, sport’s club). And that is why some posters here can speak of the desire in the Shire for cultural homogeneity. The mixing of cultures leads to “carnage”, wrote one. Note the rhetorical violence (again).

Rainier: ich stimme mit Ihnen überein aber den Abstraktionsgrad Ihrer Interventionen ist zu hoch für dieses Forum. Wir sitzen ja nicht im Uni-Seminar.

3. It is true that the animus in the term “Wog” has lessened over the decades, but it remains readily available as we saw in the pogrom rhetoric directed against “Lebs and Wogs.” Plainly, Australia is not as ethnically-neutral as you and your circle of friends like to believe.

Also consider this: by identifying you and your friends as Australians and making yourself spokesman of the nation, all the while demanding answers from the Lebanese Muslim community (three times you do this. Incidentally, in today’s Herald you’ll see a report about the trial of one of the youths that beat up the lifesaver on 3 December. No impunity after all), are you not expressing the very ethnic hierarchy you deny?

Besides, how do you know that the revenge attacks have not been condemned by community leaders? Are they supposed to fax you in Brisbane? Take a look at the lively debate among the youth of this community (http://forums.muslimvillage.net/). This OLO discussion is problematic in so far as seems to be conducted by Anglos (or their functional equivalents) ABOUT ‘them’ and without ‘their’ participation.

4. You are tired of apparent Lebanese-Muslim feelings of victimization. But consider this: your initial postings were very emotional, even abusive, because you felt I was tarring you and the nation as racist. Reread your first intervention. Like some of BD’s early ones, it is suffused with considerable rhetorical violence. Now imagine for a moment that you belonged to a group whose young men are depicted weekly in the media as rapists and terrorists; indeed, that you are one of those young men. If you try to engage with young people from these communities – I have them in my classes – you’ll find intense distrust of the media and feelings of persecution. If you think it is exaggerated, ask yourself why, and reflect for a moment on your own vehemence in relation to an internet article by an obscure academic. Your indignation appears to me to be a textbook expression of the wrath of the people.

More tomorrow.

Dear Ranier
you are asking the wrong question: “What does it mean to be white”? You also connected this with ‘power and privilege’.

For goodness sake mate..its a biological accident.. now..to the more serious issues of power and privilege.

I am not sure, but I’d guess you are seeing those terms ‘in relation to’ Indigenous Australians ? your mob.

Well, looking at the people who come out of my sons work, there are all kinds. White, Islander, Asian, Middle Eastern... I seriously doubt that in terms of job opportunity, you can speak of ‘racism’ based job opportunity denial. Perhaps you are thinking of a certain ‘segment’ or level of society, ? which might be quite valid.. say “Education” or something. I guess such a question of power and privilege would not be something which could be answered in an “across the board way.”

I’m not aware of Banks lending only to Whites or Centrelink only interviewing ‘whites’. or Insurance companies only covering ‘Whites’ or doctors looking at skin color before diagnosing.

Perhaps it would be better for you to list “What subtle racism/power/privilege you OBSERVE as an Indigenous Australian” and then perhaps we can analyze it more effectively.

I suppose the Irish Catholics could not claim direct discrimination under the Anglican British absentee landlords until the tried to buy a block of land.. and found it was all owned by the Brits.
But in terms of access to employment as share farmers or whatever, they only had themselves to compete with.

I am sure you could (and I hope you do) identify structural racism, based on White/Anglo power. I guess the first place I’d go would be in relation to land. But given that Aboriginal concepts of ‘Land’ ownership were entirely different from the British idea, they are probably more compatible than you think. (access and free travel and sacred sites should not be a problem for our concept of Land ownership)

Anyway... give it a shot and TELL us about what’s in your mind.

P.S... I still hear that knocking but the door appears closed :)

BD, That you don't know how to answer the question means something.
Please put your bible away for a minute or two and try again.

Bos

Your rebuke was deserved. I'll not blaspheme again. At times I am insensitive and a sinner. I'm sure your God would forgive my irreverence.

Part 1 of 4

Dirk

I understood from day one your stature and renown although the unkind few would rather say notoriety.

I enjoy constructive, intelligent debate. I retract and apologise for the taunts and insults I have hurled. Sadly it is my experience in life to have found before meaningful discussion is undertaken between men (excuse the sexism) there has always been a certain amount of hubris (rooted in the Greek sense) and that occasionally physical. Once enmity has been buried, by the mutual respect arrived at, tolerable discussion and agreement is often found.

Addressing your central argument; your contention the behaviour at Cronulla was a pogrom. A cursory glance at the origins of the modern pogrom in the late 19th and early 20th centuries shows those pogroms to have two distinct characters. The pogroms prior to Kishinev in 1903 appear to be spontaneous outbursts of violence by peasants objecting to the position and influence of Jews. They appear to have tacit support of the ruling class and are characterised by a lack of intervention by authorities such as police. They appear to have had the approval of the majority. There were several such outbreaks in Tzarist Russia throughout the 19th Century. I don’t think what happened in Cronulla could be characterised in this vein and could not reasonably be equated with this type of pogrom. The latter pogrom is of the Kishinev type. I dare you to equate the excesses of those pogroms with your alleged excesses at Cronulla. I strongly doubt the pogroms of Eastern Europe drew palpable community outrage. Your assertion of a pogrom fails on the basis that it doesn’t fit the predominant characteristics of the original pogroms.
You can of course dispute the features of these types of pogroms and attempt to redefine the term pogrom by saying such things as
‘pogroms are conducted by MEMBERS OF the majority IN ITS NAME against a subordinate minority.’.
Such a partial re-defining is done without any great intellectual rigour. Should you wish to dispute the features of the Eastern European pogroms and redefine the term …fine.

Part 2 of 4

I think as an Historian you would need to supply a reference to the original historian who analysed the behaviour, initially coined the word and defined pogrom then show why his definition is not sufficiently comprehensive.
In one of my responses to you I also defined pogrom simply by using a dictionary, which of course dictates the common usage of the term. You’ve never disputed that definition.

No. I think we can safely conclude in terms of any of the historical or common definition Cronulla was no pogrom.

A debate on a redefined meaning to the term pogrom… now that would be entirely different and much more stimulating. Entering upon that course would really be challenging not only your assertion but also your credentials.

Moving onto your defence of your racist inference. Your expression was clumsy. Now you assert the Cronulla ‘pogrom’ was conducted by a few in my name. I have roundly condemned the events and rejected the racist and violent actions. How does having the ‘pogrom’ undertaken in my name make me racist? It simply doesn’t. Similarly the same applies to the bulk of Australians. I’d maintain the outrage at and condemnation of the behaviour extensive. You’re also correct, it was tangible.
Of course we all have ambivalence towards members of our communities. You express a similar view. But, as we have all shown with our condemnation, few of us have ambivalence towards the racism and lawlessness. I think you have confused the two notions. Few of us excuse violence or racism on any basis.

Your inference is debunked. I think it fair to say ‘Australia is not a racist country’.

Your assertion regarding the excesses of violence could be disputed. I merely say alcohol, drugs and testosterone inspired arrant stupidity contributed to produce your asserted excesses. An element of mob mentality and behaviour was involved. I don’t think it correct to equate reasons for the riot with reasons for the violent and lawless behaviour of a few at that riot.

In all your assertions and inferences you’ve drawn bows so long they’ve snapped.

Dirk, thanks for your email and you're right, its pointless. Time energy is best spent elsewhere.

Keith,
It is commendable that you've spent some time informing yourself and making a case. I don't think you've exhausted the similarities and differences between the Imperial Russian and Cronulla pogrom, but I have the feeling that nothing will dissuade you from your firm belief about the the absence of racism in Australia (except among Lebanese, who are racist against 'us').

You continue to miss the point I have been making about the nation and racism. It is that ALL nations and ethnicities are inherently racist. To belong to an ingroup means excluing the outgroup. Minorities are subject to this sociological fact as well. Since plainly you are now doing some reading rather than relying on your trucky mates for insights, why don't you obtain the book I mentioned at the outside, _The Ethnic Origin of Nations_ by Anthony Smith?

While there has been an improvement in your etiquette since your first posting, the patent insincerity of your withdrawal of some spiteful comments is highlighted by the childish quip about my credentials. Keith, mate, are you really in a position to question anyone's intellectual or educational credentials? As a matter of course, one ought not to do so at all, with anyone. It's the quality of the arguments that count. They may be made with force -- let us not have thin skins -- but omit the abuse and aspersions. They only detract from what you are saying.

That's it for me. Today the first years enrolled in their courses. Uni starts soon, I have to prepare. May the spirit of civil debate permeate this site.

‘…we have been presented with the entrenched positions, staked out and clung to with dogmatic tenacity. Little critical self-reflection is evident,… writers give the smug impression of already having all the answers.’

D. Moses Article Posted ON LINE Opinion Wednesday, 11 January 2006

‘… too many people are unable to engage with arguments that discomfort them. And that they think they have all the answers.’

D. Moses, ON LINE Opinion, ‘Pogrom Talk’ Forum, response Wednesday, 11 January 2006 3:58:00 PM