Boxgum,
Nice post. Of course my point about the “Enlightenment” needs to be nuanced, it was not all light and not all dark. I also take your point about Aquinas. I guess I grow increasingly impatient with the secular polemic which will not recognise any scholarship that sees the base of Western civilization in Christianity. This is the new history wars and consists, unproductively, in throwing examples at each other. The inquisition is balanced by the equalitarianism of the gospel, the celebration of rationality as a God given and necessary skill versus the superstition of Medieval Christianity. But this is not about prejudice, the scholarly work has been done and the results are in. Western civilization is overwhelming the product of Christianty.

"Western civilization is overwhelming the product of Christianty."

Hehe, stop kidding yourself!

Look around you even today. It is not the religious, studying their holy books, who make any progress at all, they are all too busy praying, worshipping and fearing judgement day.

It is the free thinkers who question, who experiment, the scientists, the people who take calulated risks, who have been responsible for progress. All that Christianity did was hold up alot of amazing stuff that the Greeks had discovered, rather then build on it.

Next thing you will be telling me that Bill Gates developed Windows
because of his religion :)

Next time you climb aboard a 747, ask yourself if it flies because of science and scientists, or because your priest is praying for you.

If anyone should get some credit for pioneering Western Civilisation its the Greeks. If anyone should be critised for holding up progress, its the Catholic Church.

Oh Philo, Do not associate me with the views, thinking or rabid ramblings of “Karl Marx” (1818-1883), (I assume, that is to whom you were referring).

Regarding his views on everything, I rely on quoting dear Margaret Thatcher who said

“And what a prize we have to fight for: no less than the chance to banish from our land the dark divisive clouds of Marxist socialism.”

On the matter of abortion – I am not responsible for the actions of others. I expect full individual discretion and accept personal responsibility for making all the important decisions in my life. I, naturally therefore, respect others to exercise similar discretion without demanding them to be accountable for any opinion I might personally hold.

AS for “The cultural principles of Christianity have public expression like "love your neighbour as yourself" this is not a private matter.”

IT is a shame more “Christians” have not followed such a creed. Then they would not need the intercession of a Church organisation to do such, anyone holding moral “humanist” values would follow such as a matter of course.

As for “It was the Church that initiated a home for unwanted children but as is the case with some humans they may call themselves Christian, but do not adhere to the Gospel.”

Again, not uniquely “Christian” values but good humanist values.

Regarding abuses of the same system of supposed “Caring for unwanted children”.
Whilst the scheme invariably fostered opportunity for the most depraved abuses to be conducted by perverts, that was not the “sin” of the organised religions.
The “sin” of organised churches was the systematic and entrenched “cover-up” of those hideous crimes by the who leaders of those churches.

Their complicity was by doing nothing and hiding what had been done.
They (the Churches) forewent their responsibility to the children in their charge in favour of keeping quiet.
They put the name of their “Church” above and before their duty of care to the “innocent children” who had been handed into their care and that act so damned them.

Well Said Yabby

Jesus never envisaged His Church to inforces a set of morality upon people who have not a heart acceptance of the values. Hense the Church should be essentially seperate from the enforcers of the law, unless the society is the Church. Kingdom changes happen from personal conviction that the purest principles of behaviour for society is a Christ like way.

Daniel as a 14 year old son of Jewish nobility taken into Babylonia by the ruthless Nebuchadnezza, given a name of one of the Babylonian gods yet he maintained his purity even though required to study the Babylonian religion and science. He excelled in all the learning of the Babylonians but it did not undermine his relationship to God. His life is an example for Christians we are in the world but not of the world.

I am new to this forum and have been reading many posts by many people. Some obviously Christian, others obviously not. The barrier it seems to me, is that the Christians think the non-Christians understand Christianity, while the non-Christians think the others are brain-washed. Christianity is not the buildings, the edicts, the laws, the apparent attitude of superiority, the Inquisition, the priests, etc, etc. It is the knowledge that one single man allowed himself to be tortured and murdered to show the world how much his father loved each and every one of us.
Not one person in this world can live up to that, so we all show our human weakness is some way, and therefore become prey to our pride,our despair, our wrongdoings. Me too. And thereby give non-Christians fodder to attack.
True Christianity is the ability to allow God to guide and lead. A true Christian (and there are very few) speaks only the words God says to speak, walks only the path god says to walk, does only the deeds He say to do.
Outside of that, we walk our own path and do and say our own thing. So, the non-Christian can then look at us and say "if you represent God, I don't want him." And that's a fair call.
For those of you who are non-Christians, there is no supporting answer from the Christian side for any of the debates you put forward because "man" did all the nasty things. but it was man, not God.
However, you do need to know that there is a huge history of people who did do the work of God. Pasteur knew his path was led by God when he developed vaccines and saved millions. Columbus believed devoutly he was to find the New world for God. Even Australia was known as the Great South Land of the Holy Spirit long before exploring man had landed on its shores.

If there is no God, why did a totally anti-God country such as Russia have such a thriving underworld of religion. Why is the greatest Christian growth in the world in such an anti-God country as China - where churches are routinely destroyed and the members jailed. Yet over 500,000 people are becoming Christians every week.
You see belief is a funny thing. Everyone has to believe in something, even if it is that they believe in nothing. It seems to me that we have a core in us that craves a base
Now you are free to believe there is no God. Others are free to believe there is. And you know why? Because God gave you that right