Peter

I found you post enlightening by both your recognition of Liberal Democracy as the best system currently available and your belief's it is not perfect, has a serious flaw (Currently) and it can be improved upon.

I agree with your quote from Cavanagh.

My first thoughts went to the historical construction of our society. We have in many ways divorced ourselves as a community from many of the positives of our Hebrew herritage in favour of the pursuit of the goals of logic, science and philsophy from our Greek herritage.

That is reflected in a pursuit for wealth and also as Cavanagh holds a pursuit of individualism. I'm no activitist for collectivism but I do adhere to a belief that a spiritualism should help mould and be the cause of a cohesion within our liberal democracy. While I believe the dual pursuits of wealth and individualism are not a bad object in themselves I also think when they are unaccompanied by a spiritual pursuit then the great danger is much as Cavanagh predicts.

I don't believe the economic or individualism aims have solely led to a degradation in Liberal Democracy.

I'd hold many of the intrinsic values of much of the Hebrew strand hhaven't been supported widely enough within our community. A reasonable question could be; How much relevance do the Ten Commandments hold today. How little of them are reflected within our laws. Take the issues of homosexuality and abortion. Both are centered upon the rights of the individual without regard for the effects these rights and their consequences have on the overall spiritual welfare of society. The teachings of Christ and the Bible see both as abominations. As a spiritural person working with people and groups you'd have an understanding how the malaise of a individual also has longer-term detrimental effects upon the overall group.

I think these issues and others, have had an accumulated effect and lessened our community's spirituality adding to degradation of Liberal democracy.

I don't intend criticism. I favour no particular God nor any position petraining to homosexuality. I am anti-abortion.

The Church's inability to maintain numbers in a liberal democracy is not th fault of society. It is the fault of the Church itself.

When people are free to spend their leisure time in a variety of ways - the Church needs to sell itself better. It needs to prove itself worthy of patronage, just like any other organisation.

It needs to prove to people that they will get greater satisifaction, greater fulfilment, form greater relationships than if they were spending a day at the football, a night at the ballet or sitting in front of the couch.

They need to be the most attractive choice. They need to promote themselves. If they think people need salvation - sell it.

Although, one point I tend to agree with Sells is the role of church being usurped by Government.

This is not what a liberal democracy should have. Our Government is far too big, taxes far too much and spends too much money on useless bureaucrats.

There is no role for any large organisation be it church or state to impose its will. People should be free to make their own money, spend it themselves and associate with whom ever they want.

t.u.s

Peter, from a philosophical viewpoint, it seems that the church has its role as does a government. Was it not Thomas Jefferson who claimed that history has proven that in a democracy it is hard for church and state to work as one. However, this is not to say that church and state cannot work in harmony in what we might call a liberal society.

Earlier in such a discussion we might point out how the liberal concept has been so much abused since John Locke used it after the 1688 Glorious Revolution in Britain, not as a message of freedom for all society, but as freedom for the public to protest against an over-bearing authority as did happen peacefully during the 1688 Revolution, the principle also being used to back up the American War of Independence many years later.

Part of this principle was also freedom for the businessman or entrepreneur to trade or compete for the good of the country. Adam Smith later advanced the principle with his Laissez-faire giving much more freedom both in business and marketing. But Smith did warn that because competition involved very much the weakness of human greed, as John Stuart Mill also pointed out later, something had to be done about the working class, some sections still akin to slavery which was still thought of as a God-given right of superior ownership.

Discussing mainly Western society, as liberalism back before around 1850 only meant more freedom for the ownership classes, it might be said that because enlightenment has moved true liberalism into the underclass, the term should now be only a true social one, not one used to denote freedom from the government in what Adam Smith would surely admit was the greedy game of free market capitalism. so necessary these days as part of our Western existence.

To find the true goodness of Christianity, most moral philosophers now prefer to refer to the Sermon on the Mount, knowing that its principles became spoilt as greed and business success, became high points in the life of a good Christian.

Christianity we must remember also gave us the Dark Ages, said by some historians, only saved by travelling Muslim scholars, influenced so much at the time as well as earlier probably by Mahomet, through the ancient teachings of Aristotle, in which the concept of reason was so much needed to balance that of faith.

We only have to read good Western history books to find how St Thomas Aquinas later accepted the reasoning of those earlier Muslim scholars, some modern researchers saying it was the acceptance by Aquinas of a balance between Revelation and Reasoning that triggered the advance towards our modern day civilisation, still with many growing problems, nonetheless.

Finally, digressing a little from the main topic, we could say that mostly through Western advancement, first triggered by Muslim thinkers passing on Greek philosophy, Islam has itself escaped into its own Dark-Age, where faith in an after-life is being used much much more than the more earthly and practical elements of deep reasoning, that very likely Mahomet himself also understood.

Not that we might wish that Muslims should take on our Western ways. Modern philosophers would admire them more if they found their own way out, as seems to be happening in Malaysia, which all good Christians should devoutly pray for, using all the concepts of modern fair play and decency.

Magnificient Bushbred

If History shows us anything, it shows how DANGEROUS it is for the Church and STATE to be 'one'. (Holy Roman Empire under Constantine, the evil Popes) If not the Church trying to run the state, the state will be trying to run the Church.

The Church has as it's primary calling in the community to be "Salt" (to preserve) and "Light" (to illuminate.) A state without a Church is a state without direction. A Church 'as' a state, will become dry, formal and cultural.

The pattern in the Old Testament was that when the State erred, the prophets spoke up, often at the cost of their lives or at least their comfort as they were thrown into prison. Nevertheless, God speaks, and awakens.. and makes known.. He does not force.

Our role as Christians (those of us who are) is the same. A prophetic 'voice' into the State, calling it to account on matters of Justice and Truth. The kingdom of God exists quite apart from any State aparatus.

Secular and Liberal democracy, always will need that 'voice' to guide it. Though I realize our secular or atheist friends might not quite see it that way.