Come on, Alchemist..let 'er rip!

Remy, a young Malaysian-Australian. That says it all.

Remy, don't worry about not having a sociological answer to our problems. The solution seems to be beyond our social engineers as well. The social engineers have invited us, the evil canaille to join the debate; what a nice gesture. It's now time to tell the social engineers and politicians that they created the problem and they should fix it.

Remy, you urge Christians to follow the path of Jesus Christ and lead a life of loving our fellow man. But as this is a multicultural and multifaith society, who will tell those of other faiths to love their fellow man? Thanks to you and dewy-eyed people like the Catholic social justice movement we now have in our country people who hate us and our way of life. I guess that's the way Jesus Christ wanted it.

It sure is a problem made by our Goverment but they wont fix it because they lack both the balls or the brains. It is complex because we are all at fault. However it IS simple. For a start only a few mosques teach the right thing. On a whole they teach their kids not to except our kids. Some of these schools are actually funded by the Goverment for god sake. So stop the funding and deport anybody who teaches this disunity[which is many]. To come here u must adapt to our ways or do not come. Underground meetings banned etc.If they dont care enough about their own kids to want to ensure they settle into a strange country then WE must.

It's always the "other" that causes that problem, never "us".
"Others" must change to be like us, "we" do not need to change, because of course we are superior.

"We" may claim to be Christian, but do not expect us to follow the teachings of Christ, because that would be "weak".

And as for "To come here u must adapt to our ways or do not come" - what, like the British did 200 years ago? Oh well of course that was different.

We can sing our national anthem, but don't expect us to adhere to it: "For those who've come across the seas We've boundless plains to share" - what a joke.

Take a look in the mirror guys - its an ugly problem you're looking right at it at.

I read your article with great trepidation. as long as the bible like the koran is treated by intelegent people as the SAID or INSPIRED word of god, we will make no headway in coming together as a people. Look at all the great aspects of the christian ideals and the moslem ideals and use these with personal human conviction... so that you are part of this ideal not just abdicating your idea to an heavenly influence that can't be proven on closer investigation .

Anyway don't quote the bible as authoritive sopurce of information and then as if it speaks the only truth.

ps.I am an animist and gnostic. I beleieve in my experience and filter the experiences of others to the usefull not just all and sundry. Each of us has to take responsibility for taking on a set of ethics and be involved in living it.

ARI... don't rely on Alchemist as he tends to just repeat :) but in another thread on the UN I found myself in 100% agreement with him.. I NEED THERAPY ! :)

REMY.. salamat datang ke OLO, jangan malulah, bagikan semua isi hatimu dalam Kristus untuk kami semua tanpa takut :)

AMSADL

few would know better the issue of cultural clash and problems with it than Remy here. Malaysia has some 'interesting' approaches to issues of education, race and religion along with the Internal Security Act which makes our 'anti terror laws' look like playschool.

Remy is saying that "In Christ" our mutual love and concern for others overides our cultural background. To be "in Christ" is in many ways to embrace a new culture itself. You will probably find many many different races present in Remy's church as u will in my own.

We cannot 'force feed' faith in Christ to everyone, we can only point, as John the Baptist did, towards Christ, and hope and pray that our hearers will embrace Him first, and their fellow man after that.

But you are quite accurate when referring to the historical background of White Invasion, which it certainly was. Though the saddest aspect is probably the arrival of disease against which the aboriginals had no defence. There is little we can do now to change history, of which we ourselves are equally victims and pls remember, most of us can point back a few generations to similar experiences by our own ancestors. I know I can. (Highland Clearances in Scotland) I guarantee it applies to you also. Your ancestors would have been on an "invading" or an "invaded" side and if you were 'Invaded' I'll bet I can look back further to where you were "invaders" :) so don't push that barrow as if we were the only ones who ever dispossessed another people.

I rejoice in the sense of community we have in Christ, which includes Caucasian European,Indian,Asian,Arab and Aboriginal culture, and is world wide, for where He is, there is peace in spite of our occasional squabbles.

Please can't we give this subject a rest for a while, it's been done to death already.

Politicians and social engineers started this problem.

Over 30 years the people of Australia - particularly Sydneysiders tolerated this immigration - it was foisted upon them, thinking people knew that this would erupt one day in some form or another.

Temporarily living in my home town of Sydney I question people from all walks of life - "are and have you ever been happy with the migration policies" and I ALWAYS get a resounding NO. Numbers of Sydneysiders are moving right away from Sydney - the reasons? they are sick of the violence and of their suburbs being completely taken over usually by Chinese but also Lebanese.

These people tell me it is wonderful going to their new local shopping centre and no asian/lebanese face in sight, they just want to say g'day mate and get a smile and an auzzie greeting. When I ask people why they moved to White Australia Policy Country - Queensland - violence & chinese takeover.

It is very sad when people who have been born in this Country find that they are uncomfortable and threatened in their own backyard. Its nothing to to with racism and everything to do with seeing a country that they are so proud of and love having its daily life/ways changed, their best public schools used by Chinese parents who have not contributed a thing to this country, & the chinese pupils standover tactics ($30week protection) & their drugs brought into these schools.

The question begs too, why do immigrants not stay in their own countries and fighting to improve the conditions there? Sense of responsibility to the people/country they left behind - apart from sending cash back - should be recycled in Australia.

Australians have fought for the enviable lifestyle we have, and our Armed forces are still doing so in other lands (& I won't start on the abuse of the welfare & legal aid system here by migrants).

Remy, look at France Sweden Norway and so many other countries where the MUSLIM migrants are at the top of the criminal statistics, not the Lebanese Christians.

Remy

You appear to admit that you bring no particular tools or expertise to this debate except a Christian message.

Your tone is of one who assumes he is closer to "God" than the rest of us.

This is an interesting type of spiritual chauvinism.

For us "unbelievers” your article is particularly unconvincing.

Your idealistic view of multiculturalism betrays an ignorance of the phenomenon of ethnic electorate stacking. It's particularly easy and politicly shrewd for Federal (generally Labor) Governments to expedite the entry of particular ethnic groups into Australia.

Through polital and ("dragooned") Departmental research Governments know in which marginal electorate these groups are likely to settle. They also know which way this group is likely to vote especially if it needs a high level of social services. This partially explains the Lebanese concentrations in particular Sydney electorates.

Your faith is set against the stronger force of government social engineering (eg Immigration, Centrelink, Health and the Police etc).

You may have your heart in the right place but you're out of your depth my friend.

Yes most important to love others - ALL others.
But - there's that word again - when others call for our destruction, others meaning islamics it is a worry.
I do not know of Hindus, Animists, Buddhists, or any other religion that preaches hatred, that preaches total destruction of all other religions and even atheists as do certain moslems.
And the resultant eerie quiet from those called 'moderate?' islamics is also a worry.
There are NO Buddhist suicide bombers, NO Christian suicide bombers, NO Jainist suicide bombers, ONLY islamic suicide bombers, that is a worry.
Remember Christ did say at one time to His Disciples 'to sell their cloaks and buy a sword'(Luke 22:36) this world is a dangerous place. Christians just forgiving whilst being threatened will NOT bring peace, CANNOT bring peace other than an islamic peace. An islamic peace is when there is only moslems, only islam.
Remember we invited moslems in to this nation and these same moslems see us as unbelievers, our very lives worth far less than any moslem's life, not the other way around, repeat NOT the other way around.
These same moslems want Australia to be governed by the brutal, merciless, bloody, misogynistic sharia law, democracy in their eyes is satanic and un-moslem.
A Christian will not hate them cannot hate them but will hate their pagan (according to God's Word - the Bible) apparently death loving, dark, dismal religion.
We have accepted them how about them accepting us and our beliefs. numbat

Hey Numbat, I'm pretty sure the suicide bombers in Sri Lanka are Buddhists. Worst of all, many are women! Islamic suicide bombers actually borrowed their ideas from the Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers.

“How are we different? We are followers of Jesus”, isn't that the glaring problem.

“So how should we, as God’s people, live?”, you live how you have all lived over the last 2000 years, violently and fearfully.

Second, Christians should be marked by love for one another“, you are marked, but not for your love, but for your despotic history.

“Third, Christians should be outwardly focused.”. You can only do that when you open your eyes to the reality of the world, what religion represents, implementation, it's application and practise

So Jesus“is himself the way”, then why aren't you following his lifestyle and approach, instead of fictional delusion.

If you were following his example, why aren't you using his healing methods and anointing yourselves with holy anointing oil As described in the original Hebrew version of the recipe, in Exodus (30:22-23). containing over six pounds of kaneh-bosem. A substance identified by respected etymologists, linguists, anthropologists, botanists, theologists and other researchers as cannabis, extracted into about six quarts of olive oil, along with a variety of other fragrant herbs. The ancient anointed ones, were literally drenched in this potent mixture.

Cannabis held a major part in early christian, Judaic religion and life. There is no way that so important a plant, as a fiber source for textiles, nutritive oils and one so easy to grow, would have gone unnoticed. The mere harvesting of it would have induced an entheogenic reaction."

In the Bible’s New Testament, Jesus baptised none of his disciples, as is practiced by todays church. Instead he anointed them with this potent entheogenic oil, sending out the 12 apostles to do the same. "And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them" (Mark 6:13).

Sorry, I said I would never quote scripture, just felt its time to show how stupid and blind to reality the religious are.

Excellent article Remy.

What a farce.

Once again, we could bring religion into anything, but as usual the bible bashers (this does not go for all, Boaz David for instance) clinging on to an event and adding a religious aspect to it.

I did not hear or see of one Aussie yelling out "kill Muslims", it was not a religious issue.

What is the proportion of christian lebos to muslim ones? case closed.

It annoys me, and it lessens your impact by combining your ideals with a separate issue.

lets not talk out of school, lets keep religion to the religious issues.

"don't rely on Alchemist as he tends to just repeat :)"

You could be wrong there David, I still get the impression that Alchemist might well be a very intelligent she....

Realist: The name of the article is "Race Riots, Multiculturalism and the Gospel" Surely the Gospel denotes Christianity so religion is mentioned. If you get so upset with Christianity go elsewhere - it's your choice petal. numbat

Thanks Remy Low, I can't help but respect Christians who think like you. I must confesss to being blown away that you are a Baptist (not gonna get your knuckles wrapped are you?).

Your thinking and attitude is far superior to that of certain other posters.

Now, if we could only convince the supposedly mainly Christian Nations around the world from terrorising other countries with nuclear weapons and all the other war-mongering stuff, then maybe Christianity and Christians would be taken more seriously when they prattle on about others' terrorism.

Boaz - you, old son, calling Alchemist repetitious is like Rancitas calling Rancitas' own reflection in the mirror outstandly, ravishingly beautiful.

Actually, Rancitas fibs, Rancitas hasn't got a reflection.

Having said that i must say that sometimes a skinny, rat-faced, leftist, utterly despicable apparition that is pure evil incarnate (according to leftie haters) can be seen through a kind of misty, shadowy haze giving Rancitas the finger (honest). Or is Rancitas being called to the dark side?

Of course, it isn't my reflection you divits, my Adonis-like features are chiseled from stone - no, no , no I am far superior to that apparition in the mirror - I think?

Now were is Rancitas' coffin and his esky full of bottled blood beer - it is time for evil Rancitas to sleep. (Weekends)

I forgot to put a "h" in "were" in the last sentence up there. I guess that makes me a bad person in the eyes of Liberal suppporters (true to form - time to capitalise and get that infidel Rancitas).

Time for me to celebrate Friday 13th. The light it burns - time to put the lid on. Ummm beer tastes good.(Darkness)

RAncitas... at least my input is variations on the one theme :) I do actually put things differently at times.. Alch just puts on his Hitler suit :) and rants.. 1/ The 'religious' this.. 2/ the 'religious' that.. 3/ return to '1' etc..

More seriously though, your quip about being surprised that Remy is a baptist says quite a bit about your mental image of what 'Baptists' are like.. I'll educate you me boy :)

There are "Independant" Baptists, which usually follow a more hyper fundamental, American style legalistic approach to things Christian, including more rigidness about dress etc. Then there the Bappo's in the Baptist Union of Australia, where they are more 'user friendly' so to speak. They are more 'home grown'.

I really think some of you cynics, specially Col Rouge, who seems to be fixated on the idea that 'Christians' are locked into this idea of needing some 'intercessory priest' to mediate between them and God.
Again.. an unfortunate stereotype more related to his own cultural experience.

BOTH of you need to get out more :) ! and look around at how 'Faith in Christ' is expressed in various traditions (most of which are 'right' but different) and see how things work. They range from small home groups, (Bible studies or house churches) to the more Liturgical (some would say 'lethargical' :) like the Anglicans or Lutherans... Personally, I find very little real spiritual life in the non evangelical 'social action' type churches, most of which are fading. Then of course we have the Hill Song crowd and many variations on that theme, sadly often characterized by a 'prosperity' gospel rather than the real one.

But, as Paul said "Some preach Christ out of envy, hoping to cause me trouble, others out of sincerity, but for me, as long as Christ is preached, in this I rejoice"

THE POINT
The point Remy has been making seems to have been lost so far on most posters, and that is the beautiful unity and harmony which exists across racial and cultural borders for those 'In Christ'.

I,m starting to worry about you Rancitas.(Humour intended)

BD - "The point Remy has been making seems to have been lost so far on most posters, and that is the beautiful unity and harmony which exists across racial and cultural borders for those 'In Christ'."

The point you might miss is that many of us outside of the group 'In Christ' have seen both sides of that fence and know that the propaganda the church tells itself is just that propaganda.

Inside and outside the church people act in ways good and bad. As Remy points out the christain churches history is not all that flash in this area. Claiming that being 'In Christ' puts you in a special position for unity and harmony is just not true. You might tell yourself that, being in a mixed race marriage and if I understand earlier comments correctly mixing with a number of other couples with mixed race marriages may be giving you an unbalanced view on the broader situation.

Maybe time for you 'to get out more :) ! and look around at how' many people 'Outside Christ' really live. Not just look at the worst case scenarios but across the board. Some do well, some do badly just like in the church.

I'm clearing out shortly for a holiday so probably won't be around for any response but it will take a while for you to have an honest look around outside Christ and see that it's not all bad.

R0bert

While you Christians and Muslims work on the dificult project of figuring out how not to kill each other, can the rest of us get on with things without you?

Robert,
You've made the mistake assuming Christians have always been "Christian" were baptised infants and have never known anything other than the inside of a Church. The fact is many have been saved from decadent anti-god lives. They've seen both sides of the ledger and prefer to follow Christ - read the KIROS stories.
__________________
Quote Robert, "The point you might miss is that many of us outside of the group 'In Christ' have seen both sides of that fence and know that the propaganda the church tells itself is just that propaganda. Inside and outside the church people act in ways good and bad. As Remy points out the Christian churches history is not all that flash in this area. Claiming that being 'In Christ' puts you in a special position for unity and harmony is just not true."
__________________

May you come to understand what being "in Christ" means. The term "in Christ" is not a general term for attending or being on the Roll of a Church or claiming to be Christian in a generic sense.

The term "Christ" is the Greek word for the office of "Messiah" in the Hebrew language and refers to a position of character, title, office or authority. Jesus holds that position in the kingdom of God.

If one is "in Christ" it means they act within the authority and character of that anointed office. In the Biblical sense is an appointment bestowed by God and represents the truth of God to the people, essentially as their saviour.

Though in the Roman Christian mind it might have been identified with the head of the religious State or venerated Saints. In the kingdom of God it is identified with the spiritual qualities of expressing the pure character of God to people. It's in this sense that Jesus is identified as expressing the very character and attitudes of God - God is father of his spirit. Hence his identity as - son of God. For one to be "in Christ" means having the same spirit as God where the old self-centered behaviours have gone.

BD, you know that Hitler was a right wing christian and I am neither. You try to flippantly avoid the truth and change the subject, accusing me of ranting. Does the truth hurt that much. It must be terribly infuriating to be so inadequate, knowing you are so unlearnt about what you passionately believe in, yet afraid to accept truth.

“the beautiful unity and harmony which exists across racial and cultural borders for those 'In Christ'.”

Explain, Ireland, Sth America, the USA, most christian African countries, Pacific Islands and the thousands of past christians cultural and religious conflicts that still simmer, knights templar come to mind.

Now we have the great Christian USA, which I believe your church comes from, about to take over Iran to get their oil, very caring and harmonious.

There would probably be more harmony in christianity, if you utilised holy anointing oil, as used to heal by your apostles.

Like muslims and Jews, you cannot justify nor provide factual evidence to support your illusions, never honestly answering questions, just try to delude us.

Philo, For someone that I feel has made a point of studying your religion, why can't you accept the truth that sits before you. How do you explain the massive difference between what you all say and what is historically written. I understand those that just look at the book or get sucked in by some selfcentred crank preacher, with out investigation.

Your god and christ must be very dissapointed at the example you all provide, no wonder he won't come back.

I can see why so much confusion appears on the horizon, for a start Alchamist, Hitler was not a right wing Christian, fact’s are He was a Socialist, these traits are wholly due to the Ideological concepts of Marxism, with a few tweaking measures of their own.
Right wing Ideological is Garbage:attributed by the Intellectual fraud of Adorno's devisive intent-(It worked for a short period)
Perhaps reading the History of religion in full and understanding its existence would help solve some questions. But I stress Religious Concepts and not Cult mentality. After all even if those who do not agree- Christian's are the underlying principle that Laws were made in civil society. When you add some of the more professionalized logic philosophies, then you have prosperity and advancement with Civility. If you have swishy washy Philosophy of existentialism along with Serfdom and altruism's that intentionally degrades humane consciousness and destroys the Battery of Epistemology, Then Primitivism will be upon us in know time; as we are now finding out. Then you have war, Murder and power by the gun. i.e. (Looters-and Murderers rule) and the civility we have experienced for a short time ends in debortiary. It is up to the Consciousness of mankind to produce the best he can offer- not worship the worst of manipulated psychology if you want anyone to survive.
History is our only guide, and it is not a colorful one. So learn from it or we perish, and I’m not in any hurry to perish, so help here.
The Multiculturalism issue; if it is still kicking, then a needle is needed to put it out of its misery and end its divisive intent.

Dear Alch
the problem with addressing your posts (which is why I seldom do so) is that one would need a 'theory of everything' to cover the incredibly broad and diverse issues you hit us with in 'shotgun' mode.

I'll take ONE point, and indicate what I mean.

IRELAND. Now.. to understand that place, (alone) one needs to be aware of history.

1/ The problem:
a) Nationalism on both sides. Protestant North, loyal to England.
Catholic remainder, loyal to Irish nationalism.
b) Why ? main reason, historical resentment against English rule, over all Ireland in the past, exacerbated by Cromwells brutality during his period.
c) Particular issues: Employement and resources. The religious/political divide also means competition for available resources. Protestants controlling jobs means Catholics might not have equal opportunity, and vice versa.

POLITICAL SOLUTION is very difficult. (very) If Northern Ireland is returned to Ireland, all protestants will be an immediate and persecuted minority. Any political solution would have to involve guarantees backed up by the threat of military intervention to prevent minority persecution. Perhaps a simple recognition of the history and a dose of good will might be in order ? One thing would HELP a lot.. dispense with the 'marching season' where the Protestants annually rub the noses of the Catholics in their defeat at the battle of the Boyne.

SPIRITUAL SOLUTION. It is widely known among the Christian community that there have been beautiful expressions of christian solidarity and harmony across the denominational divide, where catholics and protestants have enjoyed blessed fellowship together. This IS the only solution most likely. Perhaps with some employment laws preventing any questions which would reveal a persons denominational standing. But even that is unlikely to work given the truth of "Its not what you know but who".

OK Remy. So, when is God and his son Jesus Christ goimg to open up Heaven for Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindus and atheists? If both of Them are still discriminating against the (immigration?) of non Christian souls to Paradise, then I guess that Jesus and God are just as big a racists as I am.

Of course, what should happen is that Heaven needs a Human Rights movement and an Anti Discrimination Board to lobby on behalf of all non Christian souls, so that everybody may enter Heaven.

When souls from all religions enter Paradise, the fun can really begin.

Up goes the Heavenly crime rate and up goes the Heavenly welfare bill. Toss in a few secular riots where the angels arrest the Christians while ignoring the other religions (God does not want to seem partial) and the Christians will wonder why they even bothered to go to Heaven when they could have gone to Hell and got the same lifestyle. The other religions can fight against Christian "dominance" and "oppression" by demanding that there should be separate "heavens" for separate religions where their separate identities can be maintained. This can be acheived by indulging in a bit of secular terrorism.

Sooner or later, Heaven won't be worth living in and all the Christains will be going to Hell for a bit of peace.

Bit like Australia, really.

All, Hitler, “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: By defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognised these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.”

“Their sword will become our plow, and from the tears of war the daily bread of future generations will grow.” Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
Note: "Their sword will become our plow" paraphrases Micah 4:3 about beating swords into ploughshares, but his tears of war more resembles Joel 3:9-10 "Beat your plowshares into swords."

Mein Kampf, is full of his religious quotations, The swastika is a christian judea symbol

All, “Perhaps reading the History of religion in full and understanding its existence would help solve some questions.”

I agree, when will you start, then there may be informed discussion, rather than one supported by delusions

Bd, “the problem with addressing your posts (which is why I seldom do so) is that one would need a 'theory of everything' to cover the incredibly broad and diverse issues you hit us with in 'shotgun' mode.”

Isn't that what you espouse your god to be, the theory of everything. Maybe he isn't informing you too well, or you lot aren't listening, just making it up as you go along. From the state of the religious world, it sure appears like the latter.

Yabby, neither a he nor a she, just me.

Alchemist, Your Summery is why there is conflict. Every thing you just wrote is false and misleading. I have near three hundred books and Journals on the subject, delving into philosophy through to Psychology and Archeology-Anthropology etc, out side of the Internet. The main premise of Hitler in your ideology is floored; you failed to mention, Aryan, and the Philosophy and the connotations and source of it. So what you say there is garble. And as for your Swastika , you answered your own Question; it came from India, and developed in the fire temples, via a flame on a rotating wheel. You must feel real embarrassed by now. If you were part serious in your knowledge you would have realized it before you typed anything
I see no point in discussing it any further; you obviously have no interest in finding out the truth, so I will leave it at that. Enjoy your abyss.

G'day everyone

Off topic but here's a site that you all may be interested in

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/

It's a blast.

It also has the King James bible.

Currently in the town of my childhood, Cronulla, just been looking at some images taken by my friends that went down to observe, some riot, the media have much to answer for.

Take care

A year or so ago I attended a Church of about 1,200 people in the south of Sydney and it was said there were people from over 80 nationalities and 40 languages attending that Church. Their corporate participation indicated that the Church is capable of a beautiful unity. Language, skin colour and race enhanced the experience of the people there; as they were united in Christ. It did require interpreters but the songs were often sung in unison in several languages

The Church I previously attended each year had a cultural weekend where people attending the Church dressed in National costume prepared food from their homeland, set up stalls and allow everyone to taste their national foods. The Church is capable of unifying people even though diverse in race, language and culture. The Church I currently attend has an Indian Pastor, with university Masters in Theology, Ancient History, and family Counselling.

Redneck's view of a multifaith heaven will not work. I think Himself would take a pretty dim view of 17 virgins being handed out for martyrdom. Firstly because Christianity does not approve of suicide and there would be a severe shortage of virgins anyway
The non virgins would probably rather go where there was some fun!fun!fun!

REDNECK... welcome back :) .. Haven't seen your posts for a while.

regarding your colorful discourse on multi religious heaven. Well, in all seriousness, being honest on this subject seldom wins a believing Christian any popularity contests, as we are bound by the Word. May I refer you to John 14:1-6 and have a read, and you will have your own answer regarding 'who' will be received into Heaven. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&version=31

The term 'Christian' arose in Antioch in the first few decades of the growth of the gospel in Asia Minor. It was in response to the Word of the Gospel of salvation in Christ alone, that people were gathered into the family of God. As Peter concluded his address to Cornelius the Centurion (Acts 10.. please read) "and He (God) has appointed him (Christ) to be judge of the living and the dead". Even Muslims believe this, they heard it from Christians.

God has entered human history, in the Patriarchs, Israelites, then ultimately in Christ, for the whole world irrespective of race, culture or creed. But faith in Christ, is the saving creed, it is faith in Him and forgiveness.

PHILO.. one of your all time best posts. Praise Him :) I felt every word of it. (having also lived it)

ALCHEMIST
Do you now understand about Ireland ? lets not leave that one until we are sure it won't crop up again :)

[31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered,
but
others said,
"We want to hear you again on this subject." 33At that, Paul left the Council.] Acts 17

and so I (Boaz) leave the thread for a while..cheers all

"A year or so ago I attended a Church of about 1,200 people in the south of Sydney and it was said there were people from over 80 nationalities and 40 languages attending that Church. Their corporate participation indicated that the Church is capable of a beautiful unity"

Sheesh Philo, your endorphins start to flow over about 1200 people. The Muslims will gather 2-3 million around the Kabba, all with the same fuzzy feelgood stuff that belonging to a tribe entails.

Now clearly all this mass delusion means that either the Muslims are all wrong, or the Xtians are all wrong, or you are both all wrong.
I guess this proves my point that the brain is more of a little endocrine factory, with provision for just a little rational thought, then anything else. The rational part is clearly hugely
outweighed by the emotional....

Interstingly, humans don't have any parts of their brain that chimps or bonobos don't have. Its just a bit of size difference in various sections.

I'm sick of people hiding behind this multi-culti garbage, and the overuse of the racist is just a sickening. I can tell you that there would more racism on behalf of migrants than the other way round.I'm fed up with being called a skippy, and certain area's I can't go to because of the racism of ethnic minorities, seems racism only applies to white Australians, I say to these social criminals, these left wing loony tunes, that started all this bigotry, you have a lot to answer to, do you care enough about your decendants to even care. Selfish and out right treason. We are under invasion with the virus called multicultralism, oh yes even the kids coming out of school heaps are not speaking English they speak their parents tongue. I have to go two suberbs away to by groceries because there is not one shop in my suberb that sells Australian food. LOL.
As Bette Davis said, get a grip, we are in for a bumpy ride.

A number of posters seem to have an amazing knowledge of Jesus. This knowledge is urgently required to settle an Italian court case. So come on guys, put your amazing knowledge to good use, on behalf of whichever side you feel most comfortable barracking for.

"An Italian judge has ordered a priest to appear in court this month to prove that Jesus Christ existed.

The case against Father Enrico Righi has been brought in the town of Viterbo, north of Rome, by Luigi Cascioli, a retired agronomist who once studied for the priesthood but later became a militant atheist."

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17725213%255E29677,00.html

To David Boaz.

Thank you for your invitation to read passages from the Bible, but I have already done that. As a 15 year old who had been indoctrinated as a Christian, I set myself the task of reading the Holy Book. I started at Genesis and by the time I got to Deuteronomy I said to myself. "What is all this crap?

There were stories about talking snakes, and blokes "begatting" of their daughters, and blokes living for thousands of years. It was pretty obvious to me that this book had been written by ignorant and superstitious people who did not have a clue. Right from the first passages of Genesis, my scepticism and critical analysis circuits began to kick in. Especially when God was supposed to have created the world in six days, then added the "stars" one afternoon, like the entire Universe was an afterthought.

To Philo.

All the churches around my area boldly proclaim their ethnic heritage with "Korean" churches dominating. My favourite is the "Ukrainian Adventist Church", just down the road from me.

The point I was making with my "heavenly" post is that religions can hardly promote Multiculturalism when they are by nature themselves secular. When all religions say that any good person can enter Paradise, regardless of their religion ( or lack of religion), then I might begin to take their promotion of Multiculturalism seriously.

BD, I agree with you regarding Ireland, two christian factions living in harmony and joy with each other. So whats new. I'm sure most posters don't want the gory details of the methods they use to kill each other, it's well documented. Of course we won't mention about both sides believing that their church is the true church, that would only muddy it further for you. Just read one account of what William of Orange said for a bit of fact.

I didn't quite understand your comments, regarding the other countries I mentioned.

All, I understand why you left, I had wondered where the fantasy library was situated. The Swastika goes back more than 3000 years and has been used in many countries during that time. It appears on many churches and was part of the insignia of a division of USA troops in the 1st world war. The Hindu swastika is different to the Egyptian, Sth American and European one.

I'd ask for a refund on your 300 book library on the subject, but then you are a devout christian, fantasy being your life. Mein Kampf would probably give you a more viable record of Hitlers devotion to christianity.

Rex that will be an interesting case. I expect that some time in the future the religious will be asked to provide evidence of fact to a court, that would be interesting considering how unprepared they are for the truth when they are presented with it. They get angry (normal religious reaction), then desperately spew forth fantasy after fantasy in desperation to support their delusions. Sadly like all the intellectually confused, they don't check the facts.

Rex,
I very much doubt whether the matter will go much further if what you say is the case. Christianity, unless I am wrong in the Italian arena, is a fundamental basis for their laws etc. If that is the case they would be judging an issue about which the law itself is a central character. I would imagine the conflict of interest would effectively remove the Italian Courts from hearing the case. One cannot make a judgement over ones own jurisdiction.
I am not a lawyer, it is just a possibility, I guess.

Did I stumble into a church?

"I'm not going to pretend I have an exhaustive sociological answer as to the root causes of the recent and continuing clashes."

Good, so keep your god-bothering rubbish to yourself. This is a political debate forum, not a place to find converts.

"So how should we, as God's people, live?'

I don't give a stuff how you live, as long as you don't tell me how to live.

Religion played a big part in the riots to begin with. The solution involves less religion, not more. Australia is a secular country, and the quicker the Jesus Freaks and Islamic Nutters realised that the better off we'd all be.

Even better, convert to Judaism. Jews may wear stupid hats and miss out on bacon, but at least they don't run around all over the world telling uninterested people to convert to their stupid religion.

The first Satanic Rule of the Earth (http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Eleven.html) states "Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked". Nobody asked you, churchy.

I am with Shonga to a degree on this - we've done it to death: the only thing that keeps me watchfull is the extreme views that need constant surveillance; the usual suspects are still around.

Its good to see redneck back in the fray ; cant say I have seen much of him lately.

Remy has not once mentioned the word RELIGION in his article.

Religion says “DO” – Christ says IT IS DONE.

Religion starts when Jesus is taken out of the equation

Christ died for us and there is nothing we (the believers) could ever DO to repay him. In Christianity salvation has been dealt with once and for all on the cross.

Those who accept this free gift of salvation are eternally “in Christ”; they have by-passed the final judgement; God will no longer be counting their sins (or their good deeds) for they no longer live under the curse of the law.

I can understand why the Christian bashers get so predictably antagonistic to any notion of Christianity which is based on their observation of churchianity or religiosity. They are comparing Christianity with other “religions" no wonder they are embarassing themselves with laughable misconceptions. Bless them lord for they don't know what they are doing.

Their evaluation is derived from their own intellectual elucidation. What they don't realise is that FAITH is something they cannot begin to understand unless they can receive it from God.

God deserves all the glory and respect we can humanly give him. So brothers and sisters ‘in Christ’ let’s join Remy and show the world what Christ’s Church is: The one and only HOPE for humanity

Yobbo: What a joyous outgoing bundle of laughs you are. So kind so accommodating to the beliefs of others, not at all nasty or stupidly bigotted.
And your knowledge of the Bible is beyond belief. numbat

Er, Coach, if there is a god; he/she/it would be a superior sort of being - are you with me so far? One would expect a superior being to have a great deal of maturity as opposed to a major ego.

Therefore, a truly mature, superior being would not be so crass or gauche as to judge people by which version of religion they believed in (or didn't). If this omnipotent one was to indulge in judgement (a bit of ego involved here) surely how a person lived her/his life is what is important.

For example, using emotional blackmail to manipulate people would be considered reprehensible. Many people have been victimised and their lives ruined by manipulative people - sociopaths are great manipulators. Along with the usual thou shalt not kill etc.

Furthermore, Remy was arguing for an inclusive attitude on the part of christians - this being a way for successful cultural mix of people.

Whereas you Coach continue to judge, deride and divide people. Now really is that a way a good christian should behave?

Cheers m'dear boy.

"Christ died for us and there is nothing we (the believers) could ever DO to repay him"

See this is how the Xtians already start young kiddies on a guilt trip, by telling them rubbish like that. Its brainwashing...

If this guy died, it was the fault of the guy who nailed him to his cross, leave the rest of us out of it...

err Scout: You are certainly dogmatic about that which you know so little about.
Actually you know so little one just does not know where to begin.
Be assured there is a God and this being knows how many hairs you have on your head, that is He knows all about you.
When He judges you He will judge you on what you know. If you are Christian you will be judged accordingly.
If you are a tribesman/woman you will be judged according to what you know. The same if you are a moslem or whatever.
If you have a life that you described in your post then you will be judged accordingly.
God is not a monster wanting revenge, He is not an egotist either.
This will probably go over your head but this God you abuse loves you with the intensity that we humans can never attain. He will judge by this love He has for all mankind.
Time for you to laugh at,mock, ridicule or abuse me now. numbat

Yobbo: I believe if you are going to crucify the Christians in their insistence on quoting scripture, perhaps you could begin by not ending your posts by doing the same thing. Christians:1 Lions:0 on that one, I'm afraid.
Yabby: I believe the word you are looking for is Christians. Xtians are microbes that infest the mind of those too lazy to afford common courtesies. Before you use Xmas as an example, there are many that find it an offensive truncation.
Before all the God botherers feel a breeze of support, I have, on previous posts, let my thoughts on religious pronouncements as validation for postings be known. It is not pretty.
Having said that, I try to maintain a modicum of courtesy when religious doctrine in included to give perspective to an opinion.
Yes, I believe in God but NOT in modern religious dogma.
I think that just about covers all bases...

Alchemist, I had not left for anywhere; yet, two posts per topic a day rule.
My library, it is huge, although 300 was a bit strong about 260 odd; four book shelf’s full, Strong Family history and unique collection. Top Secret.
That was a fast Google search for the swastika, 3000 years, somewhere about there, obvious back track from the Christian assertion mentioned. And Google did not mention it was in the reverse direction?
I have read Mien Kampf; Not Impressed, and states little; you can read most of that Ideology in Karl Marx uncovered. Europe was a Christian Society, even for tin pot dictators they need to follow the Population to garnish support, i.e. Arafat, Saddam,Eveen Muhammad changed his shape to capture the market, etc. If the population thought Arafat was (Secret) umm but a heroic murderous terrorist, who loved his body Guards, oop’s secret out, How far would you think he would have gone in a Moslem Society ? if they knew the truth. You got it. The Christian and Hitler Argument: That argument is spurious. Dictators care little for any Religion, only what it delivers. Hitler was also a Luddite and a Green. So be aware of talking trees.

You will enjoy this read.
http://jonjayray.tripod.com/hitler.html

Are You are aware of the concept "Occams Razor"? Not a good skating ring.

The scripture about "neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female," etc is about the MEMBERS of the brotherhood, i.e., the Christians. People who teach that Jesus is NOT the son of God, and that Jews and Christians have distorted the true faith and are like infidels, so ought to suffer punishments from the true believers, are rather difficult to place as part of the brotherhood!
Anyone is welcome to try, but you will find that the faith that came from Medina and Mecca in Arabia, and within two lifetimes had conquered the main territories of Christianity (yes, look at historical atlases before you scoff), is not likely to settle down to a beer (forbidden) and another prawn (forbidden) on the barbie!
Because of 10 per cent unemployment (real figure, not the government fiddled figures) in Australia, like France, we are in for a rocky ride. Does your newspaper give you the Old Bailey trial of Abu Hamza (with the hook)? He says his followers are addicted to blood, and that Allah has promised them the whole world. Not likely to want tea and scones, is he?

johnmassam post deserves a look at by Australia's National security, as it promptes violence against persons of difference rather than assimilation.

Quote, "People who teach that Jesus is NOT the son of God, and that Jews and Christians have distorted the true faith and are like infidels, so ought to suffer punishments from the true believers, are rather difficult to place as part of the brotherhood!"
_______________________________

Come on you atheists what positive cultural experience are you promoting to assisist different races to assimilate into Australian society? From my experiences in the Church they are multiracial and do it very well.

Rex what is the point of denying Jesus existed, it is his message that has relavence from God. I assume you believe Caesar existed, and in the Roman records preserved for us today. Caesar sends a possee to bring Pilate to him in Rome because he had allowed one Jesus [who Pilate said performed miracles greater than our Roman gods] to be put to death by crucifixion during an uprising in Jerusalem along with many dissent Jews protesting about temple tax. Pilate took his own life fearing the torture of his trial. I suggest he also bring a case to deny the existence of Caesar as there is less evidence for his existence

What a crazy, religous group of weirdos you all are. What has all this crap got to do with the Cronnula riots.I myself blame Howard, the DEVIL incarnate.

PACHELBEL

I don't care what you qualify it with or call it - your attitude is racist. To assume that people who have come from overseas to make a new life have anything but this as their aim is a bigoted and self-centred view.
If you are not racist, why do you only mention migrants' abuse of the Welfare and Health systems? Caucasians(ozzies for the rednecks) also abuse these systems, and they do so a great deal more than any migrants! Next your going to be telling us that White Australia Policy isnt racist either!
I was wondering how you think the destruction of two countries - contributes to the 'enviable lifestyle' of Australians - or are you just talking about cheaper petrol. Considering the 'enviable lifestyle' we have in Australia, it sounds pretty naive to ask why migrants don't fight for things in their own country. If you know how lucky we are, why would you even ask such a question? Obviously its because things arent so good where they come from, and it is not so easy to change things - in case you didnt realise, a lot of people in other countries have oppressive regimes in control, or laws which give police or politicians greater power and protection, or no ability to bring issues to the attention of the general public.
Also, it is extremely naive to claim that our Armed Forces are fighting for our freedom - you pay way too much attention to George Bush - read between the lines - they are fighting for cheap oil and to protect Bush's Saudi mates.

Get with the program.

You obviously dont know much about Islam either. Have you ever actually even spoken to a moslem? Or would you be too afraid that their death-love would overcome your spirit?

All- You think you are worried - someone has nailed the lid down tight.

All- says that Hitler was a luddite and a green. What are you implying. Not folowing Bolt's ridiculous line are you.

Change detail. Hitler was a baby hugger (albeit non Jew and Aryan only babies) and a miltitarist therefore all mothers and Aussie soldiers (using Bolt's and perhaps All Hypen's logic - loose your other half sport?) are more like Nazi's than the racist organisations that Andrew Bolt and All Hypen say little about and seem reluctant to condemn. Wonder why? (Highways)

I just read that Muslims are pack raping women in Britain too, seems like a worldwide phenomenon. Some guys are on trial facing 7 years for complaining about these rapes at a political meeting.

God and heaven help us if the left get their way over here and introduce a bill of rights.

Good One Rancitias, O dear, I have been defeated. My work has failed so I must resign and leave you with your strength and Knowledge, as it is more overpowering than mine. Good luck. By the way, Hitler was a Vegan and a User of Met amphetamines, hmmm. Sounds like?
I bet you did not even read the link Ran.

Hedgehog

You haven't been watching. It's not just John Howard. Most writers to this OLO magazine on this subject have been blaming racist Australians...That apparently includes you.

All, unlike you, I don't need to google. I looked at your link, rather than google, I giggled. Ray has some interesting ideas, but they are only held up by semantic manipulation. Using the construct of words to create differing opinion to the accepted norm, is typical of psychologists, who live in fantasy all their working lives. The success of these people is be born out by the ratio of the population seeking help from them and the following non drug success rate.

Just like christians, they try to change word meanings to compensate for their lack of understanding and intellect. All that he says, is quite contrary to the applied facts. I have taken a bit of time replying to you, because the fishing has been good and I do prefer yellow fin for a meal.

Of course, multiculturalism isn't dead in the communities of god. They must support religions last bastion of violent application. The rest of the world has evolved beyond religion, and can no longer be hoodwinked, scared into or forced to adhere to the belief in god. So the religious only have one thing left to fight about, multi religious cultures. Without multi religious cultural conflict, religion would be totally irrelevant.

Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933
“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.”

Adolf Hitler, speaking in the Reichstag on 30 Jan. 1934
“Imbued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organisations but strengthened the religious institutions.”

It is time some attention was drawn to the thrust of the article:
In the communities of God multiracial harmony exists. This is a fact as much as atheists dislike it. The reason being it deals with the very personal needs of the individual and also supports for the family. The communities of God are build upon attitudes, action, and wisdom that build healthy communities.

Of course you will have the knockers who will identify some pseudo follower of Christ but this by its very nature places them outside the community of God.

Those good Lebanese/Arabs couldn't give two hoots about Jesus.

The real problem is that they have been allowed to get away with all kinds of filth for too long.

Is it any wonder the real Australians started a riot. To top it off they had the courage (dutch or otherwise) to blue during the day time.
The opposition came out at night(isn't that unusual).

The true Australians end up in court and the foreigners get off scot free. Great country.

FRIEDRICH,
I believe it was a pity the descriptor of the article included riots, as I do not believe he is identifying riots but a way of bringing people together.

If all Australians had to be educated in the good character traits at school and could not graduate until they demonstrated them, then we might have an answer. However this does not need to happen in a community of God that is properly doing its commission. They will be demonstrating and teaching the graces of good character.

I know the frustration we feel as at my workplace weve had Muslim Men screaming and spitting in employers faces. They are a cancer on our society that must be fixed by re-education. Perhaps a 6 month jail enforced programme for assult would be one way. But then the civil rights protesters would deny that.

Nice try Alchemist, but we can debate that some other place. What does NAZI stand for? You answered the question.
Lobster moiré and a beer will do fine, not a fish eater and I refuse to drink Latté. For obvious reasons.
I did find your comment on psychologist’s use of the language interesting, in part it is true they are in general a Left leaning bunch, and it is for that, we can thank our Academics- Sociologists etc for the linguistics disaster, as well as the impending disaster within our time. Odd that, Chomsky was the master of Coercive linguistics, but you must realize not everyone with intelligent minds can be corrupted, neither by politics nor by wealth.
You would note Philosophy is the driving mechanism. Which Philosophy do you subscribe, just out of interest?
Ran, Andrew Bolt is a wogg, Ha. And if you lived in Sydney you would know we only have “TOLL WAYS” and Mafia Taxation, or was that Marxist, what ever; same result.

Philo on 17th January objected to a post that said a certain religion said Jews and Christians had distorted the true faith, and are like infidels, and ought to suffer punishments from the true believers.
Well then, explain these to us: 9.30:- And the Jews say: Uzair [Ezra] is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! (See also 19.88-93)
5.51:- O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.051
5:85:- Of all men thou wilt certainly find the Jews, and those who join other gods with God, to be the most intense in hatred of those who believe; and thou shalt certainly find those to be nearest in affection to them who say, 'We are Christians.' ...
8.12:- ... I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.012

All- I didn’t mean to be disrespectful not checking out your link. I suggest that if you have a point to make that you do it in your post. I haven’t the time to wait around for downloads of material without usually hasn't any academic credibility. 42 kbps here. (I often get this fuzzy feeling in my head while waiting. I then wake up with my head on the screen. BZZZZZZZ.)

I have a copy of Mein Kamph and have studied the holocaust. Hitler was a conditional socialist (thus not one at all)in that he killed you if you rejected his “one people” ideal and you were a unionist , Jew, a gay, and so on. It was also a scam to get the workers on side - a bit like Liberals’ supposed concern for the battlers.

I know good and wise socialists and I think they are a blessing to society. Socialism has been demonised to point of absurdity. It is just an ideal that has a strong emphasis on social justice and fair distribution of wealth. Ask yourself who benefits from all the attacks on socialists and the creation of this bogey man aspect on the political scene. That is correct – the wealthy, the powerful, the corporations and those who represent them. I was once asked to join; however, I refused because that ideology doesn’t mesh with my culture and beliefs - especially my belief that benevolent business owners are a good. People have different skills. Some need direction and mentoring and I have seen too many positive outcomes for people who have been employed in industry with sensible bosses. Actually, most socialists I know or have known (I’m out of that scene now) would agree with me.

One more thing for you to consider (you do consider things before accepting them - don't you). The Nationals have been fairly strong on retaining Telstra in state hands. Teachers are keen to renew public education. Now that is national socialism. Are you going to tell me all those nice farmers and teachers are like Hitler. (Challenge)

Johnmassam,

Few corrections on your comment.
Please read the “Pickthall meaning translation” the verse you quote will make sense then.

8:12 actually reads “I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve”. And not ‘cast terror’. All part 8 talks about an early war waged on Muslims anyway.

The other point on Jews & Christians: please refer to an article by Dr Sherman Jackson on how safe Christian arabs and Jews lived and still live amongst Muslims. Wahabbi is a geo political Islamism and its misleading yo paint all Muslims as wahhabis.

In the Quran God defines the rights of the ‘people of the book’ and how well Muslims should treat them.
Above verse you quoted (9:30) is one of many verse that confirms monotheism with no philosophies, buts or ifs which makes sense to us. So bottom line, Christians, Jews and non-believers have the right to be well treated by Muslims

FH,

>>8:12 actually reads “I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve”. And not ‘cast terror’. All part 8 talks about an early war waged on Muslims anyway.<<

Sorry FH, the word is elro'b meaning terror and not just fear.

And you and I know very well that launching a war on some innocent citizens and tribal merchants of the time - is justified as self-defence and retaliation in the islamic psyche.

You can fool some of the people here but not all...

Coach,

Please have a go at the following article:

http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=w1p1V2

As for your comment on 'fooling others' All I am doing is correcting misrepresentation by people who claim to be followers of loving peaceful religions!.

'Those who want to fool others' are usually those who:
- are on the attack of another religion than the one they follow:-)
- Get pissed when a follower of the misrepresented religion responds : -)

BTW, your Arabic is as bad as your theology: 'khof' is concern, 'roob' is fear, 'rahaba' is terror!

You need to study,

Peace,

FH,

>>BTW, your Arabic is as bad as your theology: 'khof' is concern, 'roob' is fear, 'rahaba' is terror!<<

So you are saying people should only be "concerned" when you strike them over the necks and all over the body? Common!

What is your REAL purpose in explaining your religion to others?

And by the way your understanding of the words peace and love are the same as your misconceptions of theology.

I am not attacking you or your religion but the ways you are trying to mislead others by beeing the smoke screen hiding the establishment of your systems into our society by twisting and moulding the truth.

Let's be honest here cousin.

All, it's rare to find a religious person with any intellectual understanding of life. Those that do, aren't long in religion. You express that in your assumptions as to my leanings and life style. The religious always try to put the blame on others, refusing to see their own hypocrisy.

For the record, I've never had a latt'e, catch my own fish, grow my own food and make my own fuel. Not left wing, nor right wing. Those that live in cities are cannon fodder for corporations and politicians and unable to see reality. I'm yet to see a politician, or wealthy person that isn't ethically corrupt. Most in those categories are also religious, the example they provide speaks for itself.

I don't have a philosophy that fits within this world, mine is for when those that care for all life, will be able to advance the world environmentally, sociologically and technologically in a sustainable and non destructive way. Your philosophy will never attain that, 2000 years of religious intent, shows us its success rate. Scientifically, its described as absolute zero. Frozen in the past.

Sadly, being a willing victim of religion, you wouldn't understand that concept, illusion blinds you to what the real world is.

We can always see the depth of harmony, peace and love, that is within religious communities, by the example they show to the world in their application. There is not one religious poster on this forum that has not resorted to abuse, threats of retaliation, damnation, false historical statements and lies when attempting to support their illusions.

There is no difference between christians, jew or muslim or any religion for that matter. All the books they follow, state one thing, yet they say another. To me that is bizarre and shows how dangerous your obnoxious god belief system is.

Of course you will all now try to blame others for bringing out your true nature, but it doesn't alter the facts.

By your posts, coaches and others, you just reinforce to all understanding people reading these threads, how lacking in credibility, your practices are.

"And you and I know very well that launching a war on some innocent citizens and tribal merchants of the time - is justified as self-defence and retaliation in the islamic psyche.

You can fool some of the people here but not all... "

ah coach, you know if you swap 'islamic' for 'american' you get an interesting correlation with public opinion here and in america in the lead up to the iraq war.

Come on you atheists, obsessed with war again, as you stand on the sidlines cheering on the war. You obviously have no answers to the problems of human conflict, except a philosophy of every man for himself. And escape from where issues have to be reconciled.

Coach,
I suggest you learn from Fellow_Human who is attempting to change the tide of movement in Islam by changing some interpretations. Similarly it would be if you tried to change some of the Dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

We all may recognise Johnmassam is a fundamentalist Muslim and poses a threat to civil order in Australia. Fellow_Human like ourselves wants a civil society.

Obviously many in the Muslim community are not interested in coexistence only in confrontation rather than assimilation to good social behaviour. The Christian community more than ever need to teach the guidelines of the character of God as the NT teaches as were manifest in Christ.

The Koran believes Christians believe Christ was a progeny of God by special conception, Which the Catholic Church held and the Koran copied in 630AD aprox. No wonder when Mahomets Jewish friends conferred with him he had to deny Jesus was the Son of God.

A full read of the apostle John's writings reveal what is meant by being a son of God. It is living life reflecting the graces of God, the service to the sick, oppressed and poor, and speaking the wisdom of God. Christ exhorted us to live a holy life without exception. Note he mixed with what the legalist Jews would consider sinners, social outcasts and sich, racial dogs etc and offered them sonship with God once their past had been forgiven. Muslims confuse this point believing the NT to teach Christ claim to sonship was on the ground of physical progeny.

Fundamentalists Muslims believe they have a mandate to punish by death those who hold Christ as Son of God by conception by God. Try turning the Catholic Church around on that and you will recognise F_H attempt to change Johnmassam.

Ran, cheeky.

Your Ideals of Socialism is perhaps everyone’s dream of what it is to exist; unfortunately it is the weapon that destroys us as it destroys the very principle of human consciousness. History and fact portray it in a different light Ran.
I do not have an extensive knowledge of the subject at the moment, but the principle you espouse comes from 1087-1216 century England. I have a book “Oxford publications titled “Domesday Book to Magna Carta” by Austin Lane Poole published in 1951.
I wish “Pericles” could see this post as he would have a greater knowledge of it. Vast time gap- from Marxism’s Crap.
But the principle of its inception is what I and your self wish to keep, and that is the Ideals of Individualism and Knowledge and the protection from the Egoism of a Powerful entity ready to deprive you of those virtues.
We are on the same side, different levels of acceptance of what it is we are learning.
An elderly family friend of mine was involved in the Cambridge Communist infiltration, just after the war, so armed with his knowledge and realization of the wrongs of it, makes a greater knowledge base to find those that want to destroy us. And that is what is happening now. From his view point, as they have ready lived it once before and is happening again.
Religion is based on faith and the inner strength Alchemist, you have such a religion with in you, you choose to express it in a different manor and what is comfortable to you. I think.
Ran, Lock up the protestors, Ha ( I am joking

johnmassam,
You are quoting the words of a religious fanatic, as you neither know the character of God and how His character is expressed in your life. The concept to have one's spirit born of the Spirit of God means to live as God in human terms to save and deliver people. Ezra rebuilt the city for the people of Israel and inspired them to look for a new beginning in their homeland rather than floating around disposessed in a Persian Empire. To Israel he was a son of God, because he did the work of God for Israel.

Mohamet became obsessed with monotheism to the point of ignorance and assumed to be identified as a son of God meant following polytheism. That is not what the concept implies, it means following the image and character of God alone. Man was created to bear the image and character of God, to do that, does not make him another god. It makes his worship of God complete. I suggest you begin to read text outside your own closed mind and school and gain a grasp of the facts others hold.

Your obsessive agenda is destruction and misinformation about the facts of Judaism and Christians that were malaciously perpetrated by this Arabian illinformed. He was no perfect prophet of God so do not become obsessed with his conclusions. The obsessed who follow him are still causing havock on innocent people.

JOHNMASSAM .. is, I think, simply making the point that the 'neither Jew nor Greek' etc applies only to those "in Christ" but outside of Christ, those barriers still exist.

I don't get the impression John (a Christian name) is a Muslim, though he can correct me here if needed.
He is highlighting the Islamic view in contrast to the Christian view of one-ness in faith, and showing that between Islam and Christianity there is still a very big gulf. Hence his quotation of what might be termed 'militant' Islamic verses.

I just re-iterate, that in Christ cultural and racial barriers are dramatically reduced, because the value system is a renewed and redeemed one. Of course there will be cultural differences, this is to be expected, but this should be seen in the overall uniting framework of one-ness in Christ, which reduces the impact of such differences to a level of little significance.

SOCIETY AND POLICE.
ACTION. on the matter of the riot and the revenge. I urge all posters to send an email to the NSW police via their 'contact us' web page urging stronger action against criminal gangs which continue to terrorize even the police. I have now written probably 10 times, along with mails to the Premier. Arjay or Leigh mentioned how a gang of around 20 ME thugs entered a hotel, police were called, 8 arrived, and were pushed around by the thugs and they backed off!.. WHAT the heck happened to the service firearms which are meant to turn the 'odds' in the favor of the police force ? The idea of Police being 'pushed around' physically disgusts me to the core.
1/ ALL females OUT of front line gang control squads
2/ Service Revolvers are LEGITIMATE tools of control
3/ All special response police (males) to be 6'2" and above, with a high fitness level and trained in close combat (Lethal if neccessary).

Tamar_refuge@hotmail.com
I appeal on the govt now to abandon multiculturalism and its policy. This country is used to be very stable and prosperous in every ways, because the heritage is based on Judeo-Christian,democratic values. The multiculturalism undo most of the good,it's not too late to change and build the country again base on assimilation. Put on halt of all the multicultural programs and its divisive elements that goes with it. Give the police more power to deal with the gangs related criminal activities,remove the released bills namely the multi-faithism that hinder the police from carrying out their duties effectively for fear ofbeing labelled racist,I support the poice of their bravely,hardworks in the community,I am Asian migrant,God bless

Yes there is something not right in Victoria, can not put the finger on it, but the mental health issue seems to dominate the political scene, I do not mean Mental health in general, but it seems it is being run by that very Institution, and the Doctors must be locked away somewhere else, and the patients have become Bureaucrats and politicians.
http://www.brookesnews.com/060201bracks_print.htm

Alchemist, if you are still on this thread:
Just for you:
http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/leftist_logic_the_nazis_invoked_god_so_anybody_who_invokes_god_is_a_nazi/

All-you are over "thinking". I still don't see your point. Delusion is something that you (and the majority) are vulnerable to - as much as those who you seem to think are too inferior to draw boundaries in their behaviour and attitude towards others.

PHILO

It would be rather hypocritical for us to force young people to stay in school until they show 'good character', while our government does not display any such qualities. A government that values economic growth above personal, spiritual and intellectual growth will never nurture an atmoshpere of tolerance and understanding - particularly when their first reaction to any disagreement is to immediately support the war-mongering USA in attacking an already war-torn country, and reducing most of it to rubble, leaving innocent civilians without power or water - let alone access to education!

Alchemist

I just wanted to let you know that you are spot on - religious zealots make up the majority of people that support 'economic growth' and the sociological and environmental degradation it causes.
Religion is widely used as a justification for a lack of social and environmental ethics, particularly the continuation of cruelty to animals and humans, and the continuation and expansion of an individualistic, mechanised society, in which everyone holds an attitude of 'Looking out for No. 1' and does not consider their actions in relation to the needs and concerns of other people and animals (George Bush springs to mind......)

As you stated so succinctly, the defensiveness of religious zealots regarding their long history of abusive behaviour only accentuates my belief that they have not applied any reasoning or intellect to their choice, and (again, much like George Bush, they do not appear to have questioned the basis of their religion, or compared it with their existing knowledge and experience of the world).
Taking on a faith or religion 'unquestioningly' shows (to me anyway) a naive acceptance of views which were formed 2000 years ago, and which have been interpreted according to the beliefs of the individual passing on the story.....and then somehow construed as being entirely relevant to modern society!?!
Beliefs which were 'set in stone' such a long time ago have resulted in an inflexible and restrictive set of views, which coulod certainly do with some revision for a modern, socially aware society - but thats not how the Church wants it - they have more power the way it is now - with their power and authority 'set in stone' as it were.
Anyway, good to see someone putting the religious zealots in their place.

mir: Yea probably right as regards religion, but remember there is an awesome gap between Christianity and man made religion. numbat

Numbat, I understand what your trying to say, there should be a difference between the blind evangelistic and the reality of your beleifs. But there isn't.

To understand christianity fully and be able have faith in it, you have to read all of its history. Christianity follows a very small part of christian history and rejects anything that doesn't fit to their narrow concept.

Those that wish to fully understand the true nature of a religion, must read all there is to know about it, or you can't know it. Would you jump into a jet and take of, if you had only read the introduction. To feel safe flying in your understanding of the jet, you would read everything you could about it, then you become knowledgeable and able fly it.

Its the same for belief systems, if you read all the history and really check it out, you will have a real understanding of that religion and what it involves. Your belief system would be different, but it would still display the same ethics and aims that you seek from it.

There is no difference between any religion, they all fail to see it from the entire aspect, just narrow little bits to suit themselves. Why, because they are afraid, afraid that the truth will show them to be what they are, inadequate and not capable of taking responsibility for their lives.

To just take parts of the full story and reject the majority, so that you don't have to be what it truly represents, is truly a sign of a lost soul

Thanks Mir, you are right, thats just about how it is and was. There are those that worship many books, that allude to knowledge and they all have knowledge to give. The problem is that they only worship a chapter of the book, just like those that read a revue of a movie then comment on it. Just as false.

The alchemist: We, my Wife and I, have read widely and we do have different beliefs than those of religionists. Actually we are stunned by what we have learned from various sources.
We are totally convinced that there is a great Creator and that He has a wonderful future for us all - including you.
Would you believe that He loves us with a fervency that we cannot possibly imagine or deserve.This Great God WANTS to be with us, wants to react to us, wants to live with us - it is beyond belief!
Yet we do not go to a mainstream church with all its bells and smells. We do not follow elaborate church rituals nor are we governed by a dictatorial, overbearing religious hierachy.
Please keep an open mind about Christianity at the same time repudiate totally stupid closed dogmatic religion - all of them!numbat

mlr,

You show your political and anti religious bigitory rather than poffer answers to real situations. Your lack of research and honesty is appalling with this comment: "A government that values economic growth above personal, spiritual and intellectual growth will never nurture an atmoshpere of tolerance and understanding - particularly when their first reaction to any disagreement is to immediately support the war-mongering USA in attacking an already war-torn country, and reducing most of it to rubble, leaving innocent civilians without power or water - let alone access to education!"

The fact is there are more children in schools in Iraq than at any time in the past 22 years of Iraq's history. You prefer a world of destruction as it suits your political psyche that prefers the denegration of a free society. My nephew served seven months in Iraq and assisted in the reconstruction of its society - so I have first hand contact with one who helped build present Iraq. You appear to take your credibility from the "Socialist Weekly" a subersive anti-democratic journal. I suggest you read information put out by the new Government of Iraq for real balance.

Is that the Govt. installed by the 'coalition of the killing'. Rebuilding what they destroyed.Bringing back the thousands dead. You are mad and positively dangerous.

The Alchemist,

Dear Al,

>>To understand christianity fully and be able have faith in it, you have to read all of its history.<<

You can read and study all you want and pester the entire world around you and maybe collect a disciple or two (mIr); but you will never ever discover “faith” that way. The type of faith that is required to understand the mind of God, to hear His voice and His guidance.

There are so many theologians – I’m not suggesting for a second that you are one – who have not a clue of what is required to be a follower of Christ.

Jesus chose simple people to impart his teachings. If He was trying to start a “Religion” He would have written theses, publish documents and have His own books like the all other religions you so delight in attacking.

Instead He simply lived ‘simply’, He revealed who he was: the Son of God, and One with God, He performed the many miracles and signs, He proved and confirmed the prophesies related to himself, and He willingly (not without human struggle) went to the cross, died as the lamb of God, but then defied death and resurrected Himself as only God can.

What followed is the witnesses to these events could not deny nor contain what they saw and most died horrible deaths for retelling, and clinging to their first hand vivid accounts of Jesus.

Simple story, simple people, huge implications for humanity.

To dismiss who Jesus was and is, is just incredible – it is rejecting life itself it defies comprehension.

No one can erase Him from History – but many have tried and are still trying

Numbat
It's refreshing to hear about your approach to spiritality – it sounds much more positive than unquestioningly following a large and highly structured, hierarchical (and patriarchal) system of churches and other material links to a spiritual being.

Philo
I have never read Socialist Weekly. I do read current scientific journals though. My beliefs come from a deep respect for humans, animals and all parts of the planet on which we live – to which I believe we have a responsibility, as it is in our care.

I actually have a huge respect for all religious belief, as many of these doctrines espouse positive morality and ethics, and a respect for others – no matter what their creed or religion. What I do have a problem with is people who take specific parts from religious beliefs, and then attempt to apply them without considering the situation from the perspective of others, or condemning those with differing beliefs.
It appears that you are one of those who strongly denies the huge number of civilian casualties in the current wars – this is evident from your justification and naïve acceptance of the word of one soldier from Iraq(and you probably listen to what George Bush says too).
I know that there are reconstruction works being carried out in Iraq, but much of the reconstruction would not have been necessary were it not for the broadly destructive methods employed by those invading the country.
I cant expect you to understand my viewpoint, as a hierarchic, patriarchal society obviously serves your needs well – so why would you want to subscribe to anything else?
That you would unquestioningly accept the word of a pro-American Iraqi government shows a true lack of insight into human behaviour and politics.
Hedgehog's comments ring uncannily true for me too.

mir,
Most of the civillian casualties that have occurred since the intitial entry of the coalition into Iraq have been caused by Sunni Muslims who object to democracy being established because they are a minor tribe who formerly held power in Iraq. They murdered Iranians and Kurds while Saddam Hussein was in power. Murder of civillians is not a new agenda for them. Perhaps you support these murderous thugs more than the Coalitions' purpose to establish democratic rule, public education and health.

I,ve read the reports of Saddam Hussein's former Senior minister for defense; and have several Iraqi friends former soldiers of Saddam who defected to the West. They still have family there including uncles and cousins and several had been murdered by Saddam. They knew the possibility of civillian casualties but preferred that Saddam be removed because of his terror upon civillians rather than accidental death of relatives from friendly fire.

It is all very fuzzy to cry "NO WAR' but I suggest you take that message to Saddam and feel his response. Tell that message to civillians terrorised by Saddam and hear their response. You are deaf to the cries of the innocent who are terrorised by Barbarians.

Numbat, as long as you keep your religion to yourself and don't try to change others, except by your example. Then I support your right to those beleifs. However the other path of evangelistic terrorism (conversion), only provides an example of contempt for the rights and beleifs of others. That appears to be the intent of most religious posters.

Coach, I doubt you'll ever grow up. One day you may be able to see, that here, you are talking to intelligent well read people, not people like you. What you say, leads us to believe that you have little experience of the world, outside your religious suburbia.

I don't' have to support my beleifs or preach them, they give me total satisfaction for now and in the future beyond the grave.

Coach, “To dismiss who Jesus was and is, is just incredible “ Yes it is, I understand by your posts, that you are trying to hide the fear and remorse at your lacking. But not understanding being in that position, almost amazes me between laughs.

However, I won't pray for you, I wouldn't curse you with that.

Philo, for the sake of the future I hope your right about Iraq. But History and the current approach, shows me that you are very wrong about the reasons and outcomes. Iraq may have been bad, but it was isolated and as can be seen by what they found after the invasion, it was slowly collapsing. The invasion has just turned everyone against each other, widening the problem to further destablise the area. Another bent religious ploy that always seems to fail.

mlr said:

1/ -Religion used as justification for a lack of social and environmental ethics
2/ -cruelty to animals and humans
3/ -expansion of an individualistic, mechanised society,
4/ -in which everyone holds an attitude of 'Looking out for No. 1' and
5/ -does not consider their actions in relation to the needs and concerns of other people and animals.

mlr, would you mind substantiating a few of these accusations ?

Which religion ? (all ? if so, how so ?, do they all have the same effect ?) please demonstrate this from their teachings and source documents. Would you mind beginning with

Christianity,
Islam,
Buddhism,
Hinduism.

make sure you show how EACH of these faiths cause EACH of the charges you laid.

I’m afraid that when you come out with such a mouthful, you pretty much invalidate your own credibility as does Alchemist with his shotgun broadsides. I don’t think many take them seriously.

[know that there are reconstruction works being carried out in Iraq, but much of the reconstruction would not have been necessary were it not for the broadly destructive methods employed by those invading the country.]

I don’t think you have done your research mate. Could you answer this ?

“How much of the reconstruction delay is caused by IRAQIS and OUTSIDERS who are trying to cause social disillusionment on the one hand and an Islamic state on the other, but both with only ‘power’ and privilege as the goal. The Iraqi’s who are driving the insurgency, are those who represent the failed state which survived ONLY by oppressing the Kurds and Shia ...is that what u want ?
Do you not see anything positive in the removal of Sadaam and his murdering raping at whim sons and their discriminatory oppression ? Ok.. the US gets a guarantee of oil.. wooooo like no country has ever done that :) You LIVE on land which was STOLEN...does your conscience extend to returning it ? should we all ? If not, why not ?

Do you believe in the tooth fairy as well as a perfect world ?

Good on you Remy- you raised some pretty good points- its a pity that others don't quite understand what the underlying principal is...
we can only pray for them- see ya in heaven :)