The Economist magazine does not publish journalists names with articles. As such the editors take full responsibility. And yet even then the level of opinion in articles seems to be high.

Reporting the facts and nothing but the facts seems to be something that journalist find very difficult to do. Clearly all journalists are biased by life experience, personal beliefs etc.

Ultimately the best media is probably one that offers lots of opinions and in which the facts are rigourously debated. Outlets like OnlineOpinion are a good template.

Objectivity is a worthy ideal. And we should all try and be objective. However at the end of the day we all look apon the world from a given vantage point and can do little more than report what it is that we see. Perhaps the best we can do is declare where we stand and then try and explain what it is we see and incorporate what it is that others claim to see.

I am not convinced that either the right or the left see the world with more clarity. They just see it from different angles.

http://web.mit.edu/persci/people/adelson/checkershadow_illusion.html

P.S. I am biased. I give my own opinion a slightly higher rating that the opinion of others. Otherwise I would change my opinion

David Flint is usually spot on with his assessments, and is once again here.

There are parallels with NAZI Germany & the left in the western media, and this has been seen on numerous occasions, not only with a comment from extremist David Marr, that if a journalist doesn't come from a "softie leftist culture", they should "get another job".

It is shown with the way David Fielding's office was trashed, or with the bags of urine that was thrown at those attending Pauline Hanson's meetings in the late 90's. Anyone who has a different view to such leftist ideologues, is a "bigot", a "redneck" or some other colourful, yet meaningless, adjective. We have heard English professors comment that if Liberal govt's are being voted in then they aren't indoctrinating the children at school enough. They really would put something in the water to get us to think their way if they could.

Don't doubt that for a second.

Talkback is the last bastion of a free media in this country. It is true, that occassionaly, a drunk idiot calls up saying all ethnics should be sent home, but this is because it is unfiltered. Mainstream media simply ignores reality, toes the politically correct line. If anyone has ever listened to Arabic radio station 2ME, they'd know it's far worse, remember the death threats about Douglas Wood?

A good example of this "media madness" is the minimal reporting of the attacks on churches during the past few days, and this cancer is all through our institutions.

Howard is being lectured by Asian leaders on racism at his ASEAN summit, I mean, really, what a joke. Japan doesn't have an immigration program, or even accept refugees, and we know how they treat South Koreans.

Malaysians whip illegal immigrants, and give women on work visas regular check ups to ensure they don't get pregnant. I could go on, but the picture is that all the Asian nations are shocking racists, with arranged marriages on ethnic lines, employ their own kind, ect.

Yet the media say nothing to these yellow bigots.

I have never called a talkback radio programme, and don’t often listen to them. But I agree with Professor Flint: they provide an excellent forum for the ‘ordinary’ people to express their views and vent their frustrations. OLO provides a similar service.

I agree with all of his comments, and admire the self-control that allows him to gently describe the idiotic multicultural policy as ‘superfluous’ and ‘unacceptable'.

david flint...david flint.....where have i heard that name before?
oh thats right, good mates with alan, wasnt he?
looked the other way when his mates were taking kickbacks.
its nice to know the voice of the majority has a price.

"and here we go.

drool, drool, drool, drool, drool, drool, my payola."
(to the tune of my charonna).

Not surprising to see David Flint jumping to the defence of his good friend Alan Jones. This is the man forced to resign from the Australian Broadcasting Authority, the man who wrote fan mail to Alan Jones and did not disclose it during the cash for comment inquiry. A man who does not recognise conflict of interest when it stares him in the face. A man who sees nothing wrong with a broadcaster being paid to espouse a view, and not disclosing the payment. Well, as long as that broadcaster supports your side of politics. If he happened to criticise the government it might be different of course.

I don't agree entirely with alot of Flint's assertions-but he is spot on in one respect.

By labelling people bigots and racists for speaking their minds society in general forces moderate members of the community under ground. If Alan Jones gives people a forum to speak their minds it is far preferable to them heading down to Australia First or Patriot Youth League Offices!

Not easy being and AMSADL. So despite David Flint jumping to the defence of Alan Jones (where did he say that please I missed that?) and since you did not counter his arguments you obviously agree that the leftists moonbats really do not understand the reality of the Australian public and their views. Why does Howard get voted in continually?

So if you agree the question is how to reinstate the balanced approach in some media especially the ABC which the Australian public fund and should not preach but teach.

David Flint still can't get over the fact that his previous employer, the ABA found no endemic left wing bias in the ABC. About time you let it go and move on.

We know about Prof Flint's apologia for shockjocks -- and the way he can inquire into them, have lunch with them, write them obsequious fan letters, clear them of wrong doing, etc...

Like many blindfold-version-of-history apologists, he suggests that there's no racial and religious prejudice here, really. Well not in "nice" suburbs like where he lives.....

But of course, this if nonsense for regional communities and some suburban areas where there is minimal intermingling of people of different origins, and lower levels of employment and education. And this includes individual Sydney suburbs, which have historically had their own little compartments. ("The North Shore", "S'Nives" "Westies" etc)

In this rural town, I hear racial epithets directed at "abos", "towel heads", "Lebbos" "chinks" and "Muslim rapists" on a weekly basis -- more frequently recently.

A real estate agent assures says "sea-change people" move here to escape "all the Asians and Turks". A couple this week dressed up as people of Middle East origin in Coffs Harbour to cop a tirade of abuse.

Prof Flint is as much in touch with the "silent majority" here as he is on the republic issue. Truth is more complicated than he wants to pretend, and a deal nastier.

It's particularly nastier when he praises the guy who does the dog whistling ("We can't know for sure that there are no terrorists amongst the boat people").

But then, that's not surprising: his other little mate also gave the Uriah Heep of the Media and his own "silent majority" the Clayton's Referendum on the republic.

Sure, we're all realists, and there are no racists, really...

Now if we could just get rid of all those ventriloquists that turned up so promptly in Cronulla....

In your dreams, mate! Back to lunch with the Parrot !

Apparently, the rank and file aren't in the majority in NSW, nor have they been for some time.

David Flint claims that shock jocks are qualified as as "right wing". I think you will find that certain ethnic groups nearly always are identified by their ethnicity rather than their behaviour (especially when it is crook). I don't see the thugs and bullies "with brawn" that laid into innocent Australians being identified as Christian.

OLO's own shock jock, Boaz, said before the riots.
"
Ranc
it does not make me 'mad' that 'most' people don't follow Jesus, I would hazzard a guess that ALL people don't follow Him 100% of the time. But sanctification is not an overnight thing. We are continually 'being' transformed, and to the extent we respond to His still small voice in our hearts, we will be walking with Him.

I'm actually rather hopping mad right now, I sussed out the story of the Cronulla Beach attacks and 'sure enough' here is the deal.

"GET off our beach. This is our beach. We own it." Who is reported to have said this ? read on.....(please)

http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,20281,17469247-5001022,00.html
Yep... you guessed it. "Middle Eastern Males from Western Sydney"

And here is a statistic
http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/publications.nsf/0/9C0252B88F63421ECA256ECF00073CB7
<<South-west Sydney shootings: The increase in shootings was particularly evident in the Canterbury-Bankstown and Fairfield-Liverpool Statistical Subdivisions. The rise in handgun shootings in those areas was more pronounced than the increase across the remainder of the State between 1995 and 2000. Furthermore, shootings in these two subdivisions accounted for more than half (55%) of all handgun shootings which occurred across New South Wales during 2000.>

No, not ALL Muslims are like this, but the few extended families who ARE..should be STRIPPED of Australian citizenship AND DEPORTED FORTHWITH ! (As should any Asian Gangs like remnants of the Big Circle in Cabramatta)

I ask you all, if you have time, to write emails of support and encouragement to the Cronulla Life saving club at this link.

I have recommended they make a CODE which can be phoned to a network of Locals (with brawn) who will phone others, to stream down to the beach if gangs come and to DEFEND IT.

http://www.cronullasurfclub.com/main/contact.asp

BOAZ_David"

Rancid continues: So David_Boaz will you be asking for the Christian "vigilante thugs" who bullied innocent Australians and amonst other things, attacked the police and ambulance, to be stripped of Australian Citizenship and Deported?
David (and everyone concerned) stop the racism and bias and concentrate on arguing against radicalism, anarchy (i.e.vigilante attacks and the racist radio stations who, I think, stir up trouble for profit and notoriety), dramatic overreaction fuelled by the various racist organistaions and individuals (Do you really think that life-savers don't get abused by others, including Christians?).

I am not arguing that certain groups are not causing trouble in the western suburbs and you David Flint also need to not deny that shock jocks are a major part of this problem. These petty and miserable commentators help create the climate then complain about the storm damge.

We need to get the one-sided overt and covert racism out of the equation and deal directly with the the spread of radical, violent behaviour and those that encourage it.

Boaz read Zeyno Baran's "Fighting the War of Ideas" in the latest Foriegn Affairs. It is a bit "McCarthyist" and ethno but has some insight in relation to concentrating on countering spread of radicalism and encouraging those Islamic values that are compatiable with democracy and secularism. Vigilante carry-on is not the democracatic way and you, Boaz, (and others)need to reconsider your assistance of vigilante behaviours. (Waves)

David is correct in highlighting the intrusion of opinion in reportage but this needs further examination. For one of the key social attributes that has been lost over recent decades has been an across the community decline in the capacity to even distinguish between fact and opinion. It is a top down problem in that, for politicians, perceptions are everything.

It recently manifest itself in Queensland when Parliament voted to waive (pervert?) the normal course of justice for a former minister who lied to a budgetary estimates committee, in prima facie breach of the criminal code. The normal course of justice is that a person who has a case to answer is brought before a court where evidence is presented and tested by the accused in his defence. But this course of justice was waived on the basis that "all politicians tell porkies". The fact that the lies were made in an attempt to protect people who may have been guilty of gross criminal negligence and/or the manslaughter of at least eight people had no bearing on the party line vote.

But in relation to the Cronulla riot, the very worst bit of highly offensive opinionism, it is not journalism, was the cartoonist that implied that this entirely metropolitan problem, in both cause and effect, was somehow rooted in rural Australia. The background shadow of the hat with corks was a classic example of the propagandists art.

The simple facts of the matter indicate that there has been an escalating sequence of metrocentric law and order issues that have not been addressed by the metrocentric government that is tasked with doing so.

So when can we see a forum called onlinefact.com?

We could have had The Australian Press Council down there at Cronulla and then there would have been some action.

Dear Big Fish

You ask where did David Flint jump to the defence of Alan Jones. Did you read his article, in defence of shock jocks? It is Alan Jones's (he IS a shock jock in case you're wondering) role in the whole Cronulla riots that has been under discussion. You wouldn't believe the ABC by the sound of it, so try any other national paper.

As to restoring balance in the media - I'm all for that. For instance, let's restore balance by getting all radio stations to disclose who's paying them money, then we'd know if they're balanced or not. David Flint, as shown by his track record, clearly doesn't think this is a good idea. Let's restore balance by stopping politicians from bullying the ABC (worth noting that both Labour and Liberal governments have tried intimidating the ABC, which suggests strongly that the ABC is pretty even handed). Let's restore balance by having greater diversity of media ownership instead of the oligopoly of Murdoch and Packer. Let's restore balance by asking why the media in Australia is so uncritical of the invasion of Iraq, whilst in the USA and the UK, the decision to invade has been the subject of major scrutiny, as it should be. Let's restore balance by asking why a newspaper like the Adelaide Advertiser (a Murdoch paper) had a front page headline on the morning of the 2001 election screaming "The Boat People Poll", which is exactly what Howard would have wanted - call that balance?

And as for Howard's views being popular. Well if you think that telling lies to win elections (e.g. WMDs, children overboard etc.), is ok, you're right. Is this a good way to run a country? Not in my book. That's not leadership, that's dishonest manipulation, and it's supported by significant parts of the media.

Deary,Deary me David: Giving your little mate Alan a lift up today are we?
I have never rung Alan or any other type of talk-back show. I
have listened only a few times though mainly it was John Laws. In the short time I listened I found that in the main those who rang in were usually a sandwich or two short of a picnic. As well they were so easily led by the compere, well they would be eh?
Really I cannot understand why sensible people listen to such utter swill and garbage. As well at the same time listen to the pathetic comperes shining their pathetic egos.
Now does that make me right wing or left wing or a little of both?
I get sick and tired of the so-called intelligentsia {dumb actually}labelling those who disagree with their views soft left, left or hard left ditto for right wingers. Numbat

Excellent David Flint,
In this Bankrupt Socialist state of NSW, The Police Service (PC) gets the information off the a m dial not the police network.
I would urge all police to now come up to the plate and document every single event possible that has been suppressed by politicians and Community leaders, and present those facts to the Governor General. This state is the most corrupt, lying and Mafia manipulated conglomerate of mall administration crap fill Destroyers on the face of the earth, well just short of some other tin pot regime in the mid east or Europe.

If it was not for the SHOCK JOCKS, this state and Australia would never know what deception the parasite Beruocrats and fourth rate politicians as well as the other useless idiots in other media outlets have done, well and truly over the criminal element of complicity.
New Nuremberg trials be ordered, yes that’s right they may well all qualify for charges of sedition and treachery against Australia. Start from the top. Roll on the revolution against corruption in high places and convict the Looters. Fairdinkum

Poor old immigrants! They come to Australia for a quiet life - and what do they get? - more "mad mullahs".

Look, it doesn't matter whether a "mad mullah" is broadcasting from a minaret in the Middle East or a radio tower in Sydney. The principle, the flavour, the thrust, the intent, the vibe is the same.

They say William Joyce was a top broadcaster. Too bad he didn't have talkback radio in those days. He would have loved it.

It has been mentioned before but Flints barracking for the shock jocks and talk back needs to be considered in light of the high regard he and Alan Jones hold for each other.

The silent majority rubbish also ranks with the other Australian myth of the tall poppy syndrome - countless Aussie celebs have used this defence failing to recognise a lot of us ( the other silent majority ) see them as over grown weeds rather than poppies

Flint makes a few points (well one) - the failure of the NSW ALP to address crime - not racial crime but crime in general - he then goes on to inject the immigrant line about border control, legal injecting rooms and assimabiltiy (is that a word?) - all the other nagging things that so pre occupy this man - these are the things that apparently trouble the silent majority, the matters elevated to big deals by the shock jokes ( and no it isnt a spelling error ). He draws us back to what underlies his premise and that of so many of the quiet but indeterminate quotient - a whole bunch of us dont like foreigners unless they are serving us food or turning down our beds.

Poor old David,

Still living in the twilight of his self deluding world.
Then again some people cannot help living their entire life with blinkers on.
It even makes it worse if one is one eyed.

Nobby

Really Sneekykym, you need to get out more.
By the way, did you know about the riot in W A. March last year, no I did not think so; Aboriginals and Sudanese, No white Anglo’s involved so don’t report it, can’t get good Socialist propaganda and guilt out of that.
Sorry you also forgot to mention 1915 Broken Hill Murder’s -Riot-and Parliamentary speech about that incident. Objectivity sneeky not subjectivity. You are loosing it

Me!!?? get out more.
Dont get it all - there's a whole lot I dont know about so what's your point.
Can't say I am feeling guilty about much at all either;

Dont know of any aborifigal/sudanese clash - is it a compulsary kind of thing to know? If it wasnt reported which particular conspiracy buried the story - which socialist media aparatus shanghied that story? Comrade Murdochs, or Comrade Packers?

and sorry I didnt know I was under any obligation to mention the 1915 Broken Hill - Murder - Riot - Parliamentary - speech either; would that be in relation to Mulla Abdulla and Gool Mohomed the Turks I believe who ambushed a train killing several and wounding a few others? - and if so - so what?.

Don't tell me - it means there's proof these guy's murder a lot. Or is the point you make so refined I have missed it?

Isn't it interesting, the greens are now very quiet in the anti dam
rhetoric, just took a good drought. I wonder how bad it will have to get on the street, before the do gooders wake up no this one.

Just saw an in-house discussion on SBS regarding the matter, a handful of the usual suspects were there, the policeman, the surfie, the young muslim, the pollie, respective religous heads, young muslim female.

Of course there was talk about the inherent racism that muslims face, and to what extent Sundays events were racially motivated, and the backdrop was a very large picture of one of the aggressors during the day Sunday.

Nothing about whether the burning down of four Christian churches was racially motivated aggression, or the bashing of a stranger in a car with bats because he replied when asked that he was Australian, or telling caucasion girls that they will be raped and then stabbing the friend that attempts to protect them. Nothing about any possible racism existing on the Middle Eastern side. What a crock of BS.

Benjamin,

Your post is excellent except the bit where you compare Nazi Germany with the left. Nazi Germany controlled the press for the good of the mother land. The left don't care about Australia. That's a big difference. The left is about race mixing and sexual perversions(child porn etc). The only good leftie is a dead one.

A zero tolerance policy needs to be implemented. There is too much tolerance for these thugs who have been terrorising our streets for years here in Sydney. Muslim countries have a harsh zero tolerance, implemented by the police / military and it is required over there because of their violent culture. They have brought their culture here.
I am of Lebonese origin and know my relatives left their birth country for a better place to live.
Australia is the best country in the world and I cant understand why todays muslims want to turn Australia into the muslim country they, or their relatives had fled.
The comments I get are "not every muslim is a terrorist but all terrorists are muslims", and it makes me wonder why they left their terrible country.
All these troublemaking muslims need to be sprayed with pigs blood so they can go to hell without their virgins and then the good ones will be left alone.

Can anyone really clarify to me why Australia needs immigration from any country at the moment?

Our infrastructure is in disarray, Sydney (in particular) packs people like sardines into its public transport. Our suburban areas are becoming over developed, tearing down traditional aust houses with large backyards and creating third world slum estates.

We dont have a labour shortage like post WW2 and i know HEAPS of uni students that are not employed in technical fields they have paid 15k plus to be trained in.

And now we have a fragmented society... Therefore i ask what good was or is any further immigration in general?

Never truer words were spoken David,and you can tell by the bile ,hate and attempted character assassinations by some on this forum that you have hit quite a few raw nerves.Good on ya and keep at it.

AMSADL,

“You wouldn't believe the ABC by the sound of it, so try any other national paper” Hmmmmm Yeah Okay that’s …umm logical?

Sorry but you lost me after that. Is that not what the article is saying. If the “shock Jocks” did not provide what majority of people wanted, reporting and discussion, then they will go by the way side. (Oh by the way thank you, Oh intelligent one for pointing out to little old me that Alan Jones is a shock Jock)
If a station does not rate or a newspaper does not circulate then people have made their choice. What journalism is supposed to do is report all the facts and analyse on the facts. And not shout people down who have a difference of opinion. (Where is David Marr these days). Talk back provides that at the moment

Your comment “asking why the media in Australia is so uncritical of the invasion of Iraq “ I am sorry but what planet are you on? I get sick of reading the entire world will end stories on Iraq in the media. Be serious. . Oh and all Howard’s lies. Well that’s the beauty of democracy, people can chose in elections…… Pity they do not always chose the way one wants.

Johno

Onya mate! Great post. Have you read Dr Waleed's article on another post in this forum? It will make you feel good mate.

Distain - agree with you. Brisbane and the Sunshine Coast are going crazy with so-called development - without any infrastructure.

God I'm glad we left Sydney when we did!

Merry Christmas to all
Kay

Fiedrich srote - except the bit where you compare Nazi Germany with the left. Nazi Germany controlled the press for the good of the mother land. The left don't care about Australia. That's a big difference. The left is about race mixing and sexual perversions(child porn etc). The only good leftie is a dead one.

-----

The left is about mixing race and about sexual peversions such as child porn? What a disgusting way of looking at life. Nazi Germany did not control the media for the good of the motherland, nor because it was left wing, it controlled for control, for the good of their fascist principles. It was a fascist state and controlled by fear, brutality and propoganda.

Fear will bring out the worse in the people. This is well documented, and in particular, used and admitted to with great preide by senior members of the 3rd Reich. Fear is being galvanised in this country, rascism is being mixed with bigotry. The lines are being scrambled between one issue and another. The issue with the young Lebanese Muslims and Lebanese Christians, along with the issues of behaviour is being blurred and crossed. The thugs who created carnage and burned churches is a hate crime. The weekend thuggery was based on hatred, bigotry, retaliation, and long term unrest, which should never reached these points.

The media has been full of shock horror for a long time about Muslims, and blind freddy could see that if you keep pounding on a subject, and fear and ignorance is involved, then people will react.
The reasons for the weekend riots are many, and it is not one nor another being the main problem.

We are a rascist nation, always have been. The shame is that the young, who grew up with people from other nationalities, have less tolerance,at times, than those of the 1950's and 1960's. Is this the product of our child rearing? Are the baby boomers responsible for this? We will need to dig very deep to find the answers.

Perseus

"But in relation to the Cronulla riot, the very worst bit of highly offensive opinionism, it is not journalism, was the cartoonist that implied that this entirely metropolitan problem, in both cause and effect, was somehow rooted in rural Australia. The background shadow of the hat with corks was a classic example of the propagandists art."

Talk about jumping at shadows, or is it a case of "If the hat fits.."

The hat with corks is a well-recognised symbol of Australia. I'm sure Sean Leahy was making a statement about Australians in general, rather than directing blame onto rural Australia.

Tinkerbell1952, Terje, I agree wholeheartedly with your posts, sadly between you, I have nothing to add, except to congratulate you both, on very well written posts. Nobody has a monopoly on truth, truth is different for all of us, we need to be tolerant of others opinions. The schock-jocks cater to a certain section of society, a section I do not subscribe to, and as such can't comment.

Keep Left Unless Overtaking signs: elitism, riots and civil unrest.

'Keep Left Unless Overtaking' is widely viewed to mean KEEP LEFT UNLESS SPEEDING. If you are on the speed limit in NSW and slowly overtaking a vehicle of slightly slower speed you will be booked. If you tailgate a legally overtaking vehicle in the overtaking lane, approaching it at 140 Km per Hour and causing massive confusion, angst and traffic instability you are in the right and it appears from the rapidly increasing number of these incidents that you will not be booked. This stems from yet another blundering bravado attitude displayed by roads minister Costa and an ingrained incompetence at the RTA as shown by the recent sacking of Paul Forward.

Keep Left Unless Overtaking signs are an implicit invitation to speed and break the law. This technical RTA failure continues to engender a sentiment of elitism and agression througout a very competetive section of the community. This section does not only include aggressive youths that participate in riots. A wide sleeper section of the community is involved.

A fundamental commonality in the current riots has been souped-up cars and mobile phones. Any signage that acts as an invitation to break the law with cars is inflaming a feeling of lawlessness and unfounded elitism among agressive sections of the community, including youths involved from both sides of the current riots. As an aside, it is interesting that police now have the power to confiscate cars and mobile phones from potential rioters.

If ZERO TOLERANCE is the way to quell rioting in Sydney then the place to start is with public officials who appear to have subtle reasons for engendering a feeling of elitism in selected sections of the community as a way to curry favour with community power players. The way to begin this process is to take away their cherished 'Keep Left Unless Overtaking' sign and replace it with a truth-in-notification sign of "KEEP LEFT UNLESS TRAVELLING AT SPEED LIMIT".

I guarantee this single action will be like hitting all elitists with the ol' Pea beu.

After the riots are over.

It still leaves the problem of festering resentments in the community over out of control immigration policy. It is no use if you do stop the flagrancy of these riots among youth when resentment about new housing encroachments are brewing right throughout ALL sections of the community. Again, ZERO TOLERANCE is needed and this time with the NSW Carr/Iemma government. They must be forced to stop their PROPAGANDA desal advertisments now flooding radio and TV at taxpayer expense. These adds say " because of overpopulation and climate change, Sydney must have a secure water supply for the future ...".

The required TRUTH-IN-ADVERTISING should be: "because overpopulation, climate change and low dam levels are caused by the NSW government policy of overpopulating Sydney and of building 1,000,000 new homes by 2020 we are ceasing such developments forthwith and thus reducing population growth in Sydney for the forseeable future. A desal plant will no longer be required and we apologise for the unprecedented concerm this matter has caused in a community which cherishes it's democratic freedoms and it's sense of community and open space. We also apologise to big Macbusinesses that we feel have been let down by this and we hope that they will still support our government and give us well paid jobs when we leave office."

Next topic: ZERO TOLERANCE and TRUTH-IN-SENTENCING for free speech.

Another content-free contribution from the Flint/Stone team of cartoon characters.

The headline of the article is a swipe against critics of shock-jockery - a trade that is surely the simplest way of making money that the world has ever dreamed up. Just open the phone lines, pander to the basest instincts of the public at large, and watch the phones light up.

The attractively-coiffed professor proceeds to equate the contributions of those who call in with "public opinion", despite the fact that there is only a very narrow section of the population who would ever pick up that phone and call. For one thing, it is standard operating procedure that any sign of tolerance and consideration is met with on-air derision, which has the effect of narrowing response even further. If you make it clear that there is only one side of the argument on offer, why would you call in the first place?

But no matter. It makes a good story, and attracts exactly the same reaction in print as it does on the air, from those whose instincts cause them to reach for the phone when the dog-whistle blows.

Interestingly though, the article ends with a call to zero-tolerance policing, which is a horse of a very different colour. It is entirely possible to disagree with the opinion that the voice of talk-back radio is the voice of the people, while agreeing that stricter enforcement of existing laws and greater support for our police force is a good thing.

They are not mutually exclusive, but it is standard practice for the Flintstones to lump them together, so that they can take some easy shots, and plaster a few more un-Australian labels on those who disagree with their worldview.

Shoddy stuff, basically.

This peice is full of Flintoffs as is the norm for him I think the funnest one though is him calling anyone elitist...if ever there was someone with a plum in their mouth it's David Flint.

I am looking at your arab problem from France where we have more of our share of aggro with them. The French have been accused of being racists by the anglo-saxon media in a very unfair way. For years and years we have put up with anti-social behaviour, crime, intimidation and the inability or unwillingness, or both, of arabs from North Africa to integrate into french mainstream society despite spending billions of euros on schemes to help integration. Family regroupment is also a big issue. In one instance it was discovered that no less than 56 members of the same family lived in the same building, literally taking the place over and making life hell for the other residents. Unlike portugese, italians, chineese and others who have integrated with the French, arabs have not. Who is to blame? Muslim radicalisation? Religious intolerance? Unemployment? Young muslims in france feel a pathological hatred for the French and the French State, the same as young muslims in australia who hate the australians, the Australian State as well as the australian way of life, freedom of speech, women's rights. David Flint is right, of course, but when in france we apply zero tolerance the human rights brigades come out of the woodwork and the "scum" go out burning cars, schools and churches. Australian politicians are the same as french politicians: their balls anaesthetised by Political Correctness. In France only Sarkozy, the Home minsister had the courage to call the rioters by their name: scum! Parts of Sidney have become muslim territory for ever. In Australia you made a big mistake by allowing too many arabs into your country. Your problems are only beginning.

jlpapeur,
Thanks for your post. I have to agree with you that David Flint is right.

Most of the posts so far have been merely degrading him as a person rather than evaluating his message. Just shows their bigotry rather than fair comment.

Police in Sydney report that though several Lebanese Muslim youth have been charged they are out on bail. Two Aussie male from Cronula have been charged and are imprisoned waiting for trial. The Police are monitering the Lebanese gang assembling but are not arresting known criminals because they believe if they did it will cause further disturbance and riots with the police. These known criminals roam free, and this unbalanced enforcement of justice is also causing ill feeling in the broader community.

Really , Bronwyn, a lot of hat wearers in Sydney is there? Give me a break. The comments of the new Premier, and by implication the underlying sentiments of his metro support base, suggest that the main concern is for Sydneys reputation as some sort of sophisticated centre of cool. Never mind the squalid reality that was always there. Never mind all those sad prols who eke out a meagre token of grace and dignity by association with a remote few who actually have a harbour view.

Sydney likes to run the affairs of the rest of NSW because it distracts attention from its own problems. And like many awkward morning afters, it looks a fright without soft lighting, lots of makeup and an ample filter of alcohol.

David Flint talking about elites is hilarious! Look in the mirror, sweetie (you should find a huge one in Alan Jones' bathroom - you know where to look) and you'll see the face of the redneck loving, politically correct right-wing elite.

As for free speech, I'll think you'll find that your honey only allows those who agree with him the chance to air their views. But its a free country and I'm free not to listen to the filth spewed out on talkback radio so I don't. Nor do I seriously consider the bleating from conservative, privileged elites bemoaning "them" moving into Cronulla.

As for the public not being asked about multiculturalist policies, I don't recall being asked about the industrial relations legislation. It never went to a vote before it become law and it didn't feature in the 2004 election campaign. The elitist one has a selective memory. Too focused on Alan I guess.

Zero Tolerance is the only way.

You dont give people in extreme situations an inch, as they take a mile and make it ten times worse to control.

The cops have done the right thing thus far with lockdowns etc. I hope they have their gameface on Sunday though.

Dear Friedrich,

I just want to ask you something about what you said before, about only the whites were in the trenches.. that's pretty much right (plus there were a handful of black fellas in the digger mob).. i took what you said to mean that the diggers made a lot of sacrifices for this country to protect it.. yes they did.. but listen, the fellas in the trenches were fighting against the Germans, who were basically all white.. even at Gallipoli, where one of my relatives died and another had his toes blown off, they were fighting against turks who were taking their orders from German officers and using German equipment. Most of the diggers ever killed in battle, ever, were killed by German soldiers.

In WW2 the Aussies were fighting the Germans again. (still very white after 25 years since WW1). The Nazis were a bigger threat to Australia than the Japanese, since they almost crushed England, our largest trading partner at the time. The Japanese Imperial Forces were less of a threat to Australia, because they had already invaded every single other country in SE Asia, and decided to take on about one billion people. When they bombed Darwin and torpedoed a boat in Sydney harbour, they were trying to damage American naval vessels, not invade Australia. I want to know what 'white pride' thinks of the PNG 'fuzzy wuzzies' who carried our wounded diggers through hell on the Kokoda trail. Or the East Timorese and S Pacific Islanders who hid Aussie commandos while they were intercepting critical Japanese intelligence. Or the South Vietnamese who fought alongside us in the Vietnam war. Or the South Koreans in the Korean war. Please tell me what you think of these people, cos they were on our side.

I'm in Deutschland now by the way, and if you were here too you would be put in prison for a long time for being pro-Nazi. Our diggers fought against the Nazis, not for them. So are you a Nazi or an Aussie? I want to know.

A positive note from Melbourne...no room for complacency, just a call to action.

**Fear no more**

The sun is shining
Santa is on his way
And in the suburbs of Australia
Fear lurks each day

A label we use
A generalisation we make
How quickly it can deteriorate
Into crime and hate

But here in Victoria
We continue our quest
To celebrate our uniqueness
And speak without jest

For our diverse community
Access and equity
For all of our residents
Peace and harmony

All it takes is you and me
Sharing a little empathy
And speaking up for all our friends
Not just those that look like us

Flint writes, "it [Cronulla violence] was never planned, called for or condoned." Flint's written piece is laced with flaws of this type.

In this case Flint flatly ignores the phone messages before the event and the radio host who gleefully encouraged the violence of some callers.

Sir Flint must be slowing down. It took him a whole nine paragraphs before he got around to using the word "elite". The word "multiculturalism" apparently means whatever the speaker wants it to mean. The same can be said of the word "elite" if it can be applied to a poverty stricken, illiterate person who disagrees with Sir Flint.

I think down in “The peoples Socialist Republic of Brankistan” The Old Victoria: He has a Vice grip hold on the people -, half the population has not got a clue what is happening, don’t worry, you will soon enough.

Ev,

I would like to know the answer to your question too.

FREDRICH - Why don't you go back tp NAZI GERMANY, IF YOU LOVE IT SO MUCH, AND TAKE alan Jones with you, I am sure you would both be happy together after all Allan Jones has not lived dowm the Englingh toilet
experirnnce of a few years ago, yet. So why should we take his opinion for anything.

Too many of our online sessions seem to be involved with people sniping at one another, something that would not be tolerated in any university discussion.

The problem is that with too much sniping, though somewhat entertaining, we never seem to get to the real core of the terrorist problem, which of course, is simply a people problem. All wars through history, have been caused by people problems, as we know from the Crusades as indeed, we are having one now at it from both sides.

What can be said also that the difference between a university Humanities lecture and our Online talkbacks is that in the Humanities there is the effort, though not always successful, to use reason, part of which is at least a try to believe in the need these days to discuss sharing the blame for terrorism, as recommended by Nelson Mandela, and also incidently by the recently deceased Catholic Pope. Nearly all good Humanities-based history books have sections devoted to blame-sharing, and one believes if it was taught more in high and primary schools it might be a far more friendly world.

It was so enlightening despite the ruckus in Sydney over the weekend to note certain groups of young people, both migrant Muslims and Aussies very much ready to get together and admit that both sides are more than a bit wrong. All one can say, the more of such on our online sessions the better, and even if it went worldwide very much the better. We could ask all Christians and Muslims to pray for it, as well as unbelievers to wish for it, otherwise our great great grandkids on both sides will be cursing us for our lack of wisdom and understanding, or in outback Aussie terms, just plain commonsense.

If you read the following letter and agree with it, copy and forward a copy to your friends, family and any or all relevant State and Federal Members of Parliament. I've had to post it in three sections due to the word restrictions on this forum. Thank you.

AN OPEN LETTER TO THE NSW MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT.

Dear Members Of Parliament,

As a most concerned Australian, I am writing with you in complete dismay at the lack of prior attention to the problems that have been simmering for years within the Middle Eastern Muslim communities of Southern Sydney.

The evidence has been in plain view for all to see and, that this current situation would eventually disintegrate into some form of large scale civil unrest was apparent to any citizen in touch with reality, however for years you have decisively and collectively turned your backs on your responsibility to deal with this matter and in doing so, on the law abiding community that appointed you.

It's abhorrent that throughout these past few days of civic disturbances, the political and media spin on these events has painted the Australian element as being somehow the instigator of all of the trouble.

We have had to witness the Australian born community leaders from Maroubra and Cronulla humbly apologising to the Middle Eastern community (for what was agreeably some pretty unsavoury behaviour by a small number of drunken fascists and a few very frustrated local idiots), though I have yet to hear any reciprocal apology coming from Middle Eastern communities about their own youths' long-term provocation and disgraceful behaviour towards the people of a country that gave their very own parents succour in their time of greatest need.

Our men have been murdered, stabbed, shot at and bashed by Middle Eastern gangs for years while our women have been raped, spat upon and otherwise denigrated yet somehow, we are the cause of the problem, it seems

Will one of you please explain to us all why, as our elected leaders, you continue to make repeated concessions and excuses for the ongoing illegal activities and anti-social behaviour of a large number of members from these communities?

It is more than 'common knowledge around the village' that since the introduction of the National Gun Laws, brought about by the tragedy at Port Arthur, the Middle Eastern communities have continued to steadily build up their stockpile of illegal weapons, particularly firearms, in flagrant disregard for the law of the land.

The Police have been well aware that many Middle Eastern residents of the Southern and Western suburbs of Sydney possess illegal firearms, yet they have chosen to do nothing about seizing these weapons as the law requires. One only needs to recall the Lakemba Police Station being shot up to confirm they are well aware of the situation but are not prepared to act.

But if that wasn't already enough evidence for the police to respond, on the evening news just a few nights ago (13/12/2005), Mick, a Comanchero bikie gang leader of Lebanese decent openly stated that "not since his time back in Beirut had he seen so many firearms as he had in Lakemba on Monday night". He was referring to the large congregation outside the Lakemba Mosque where it was estimated that up to 1,000 men gathered (12/12/2005).

As it is the responsibility of this government to protect the interests of ALL citizens and residents of the state of New South Wales, it is, therefore, your responsibility to persuade the Minister for Police to instruct the Police 'Service' that serves the people of NSW to act upon these serious violations of the National Gun Laws

>> Most of the posts so far have been merely degrading him as a person rather than evaluating his message.<<

This is the classic Flintsone defence, and simply will not wash.

Flint is not just a messenger here, in which case it might be appropriate for his character to be irrelevant. He is in fact the message. If you disbelieve me, try imagining this piece being written by either Peter or Tim Costello. Not possible, eh?

It is therefore totally valid to take into consideration the nature and history of the person stating the position as well as evaluating the message itself.

On a number of counts, one of which is simple honesty, the article is tainted, and it is totally appropriate to recall his history - cash for comment, smarmy letters to shock jocks and all the rest of the sad story - when remarking upon the sheer fatuousness and blind idiocy of the observations he makes.

Give 'em enough rope,
Your observations may be spot on in your letter, but I suggest you try to reduce it to 350 words otherwise busy politiciand will only gloss over the general sentiment of the letter and scan for any action upon which they need to respond.

-----

I hear Senator Roxon wants now to introduce laws to curb the identification of race in criminal acts, because she believes it vilifies the race. If race is a reason or an identification for the crime then it should be identified. Martin Luther King would agree, and he would have confronted it realistically. The Media may not be able to publish racial identity but the community will not be fooled. When racial tensions rise above the law, the law will be ignored. Any attempt to drive tensions underground only increases greater pressure when it does explode. That was the case with the demonstration fueled with alcohol in Cronulla by the local community males. Suppression of feelings in media and public forums only polarises people underground, it is better they be dealt with at an individual incident. It is like what happens with an abused wife, she may submit till she can take it no longer and then she explodes with a weapon that empowers her.

Most posts I read on this thread are vilification and demeaning abuse of David Flint and Alan Jones. These posts indicate their political bigotry and hostility, rather than addressing the problem posed by the article.

What we need are methods of assisting disfranchised people to assimilate into and participating in all aspects of Australian society; so they call themselves "Australians" not a foreign racial / religious group. Until people are able to participate compatably in all aspects of Australian community, there will be conflict.

Elitism and elitists are not the problem. We depend on them to carry our society to greater heights. And we all have some elitist traits anyway.

The problem is the Carr/Iemma Labor government. They were blooded into a DICTATORIAL government style by the excesses of the 2000 Olympics. They have seen no reason and we the voters have given them no reason to return to a serve-the-public mentality. Everything is now private-public patnerships with a view to increasing populations purely for the government to have more POWER and private enterprise to have more PROFIT.

Apart form the fact that this is corrupt and undemocratic, it has led to several policy decisions that have allowed these riots to occur and WILL allow them to continue.

The main problem is the government overpopulating people into Sydney for it's own benefit and NOT training a commensurate number of extra police or judges. Law and order is suffering and there are crimes people can get away with. Elitists see the opportunity and take it.

The second problem is PROPAGANDA. The recent desal ads state that we need the desal plant because of overpopulation and climate change. But NSW government policy is driving overpopulation and climate change in the first place. To wit they don't need a desal plant, they just need to stop building new homes. This propaganda also seeks through media releases to downplay incidents of race tension and anarchy in order to protect negative aspects of private public patnership from view.

The third problem arose when roads minister Costa strengthened the 'Keep Left Unless Overtaking' provision in traffic management. This sign in truth says 'Keep left unless SPEEDING'. It has enabled a wide variety of elitists who enjoy bullying others to take control of certain road systems whenever they please without fear of being booked. In fact the provision is likely to see sensible drivers at the speed limit being booked. Every one of the riot participants will be taking advantage of this rule to justify their cause in being visibly above the laws of the state and thus justified in rioting.

To compound the riot problem, John Howard at the M7 opening ceremony, has stated how important private-public partnerships are to Australia in getting badly needed infrastructure up and running and in providing population growth and more jobs. This, given the problems I have mentioned and their effects on rioting, is nothing short of culpable behaviour or perhaps signs of senility in the old chap. He'll be lucky if gangs don't use souvenirs from the M7 as weapons.

Of course private-public partnerships are important but not at the expense of sensible population growth, law and order and the absence of government officials who are capable of any kind of truth-in-speaking. The money involved in private-public partnerships, the temptation for corruption and the ease with which it can be hidden may mean that 3 and 4 year elected governments are NOT fit to be overseeing Private-Public partnership administration.

In any major catastrophe there is never just one cause. What happens is a series of somewhat unrelated failures that when combined have a timing sequence that not only causes but also augments the catastrophe. It seems to me that Australia's social fabric is verging on such a catastrophe and the word of an ageing PM that all iis well, full steam ahead, is nothing short of a scene from the Titanic.

It is clear to me and I hope to others that we need time to assess and digest potential problem areas before continuing with current immigration levels. We only have one country and one life. We need to be sure we are not throwing them away on some rich politicians dream. A moratorium is an important issue to consider right now.

IT IS TIME... PROCLAIM A DAY OF POLITICAL SHAME.

50,000 Australians should stand in peaceful protest outside the office of Morris Iemma and proclaim his abject failure to do what is right in relation to Middle Eastern Crime !

After they have proclaimed DAY OF SHAME at his office, they should then proceed to the Law Courts, and proclaim from the Prophet Isaiah
Is 5:20

20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.

21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
and clever in their own sight.

TIM PRIEST 1990s

Tim Priest, another police whistleblower, warned in a speech delivered on November 12, 2003, two years before the Cronulla riots and the Paris riots: "In hundreds upon hundreds of incidents police have backed down to Middle Eastern thugs and taken no action and allowed incidents to go unpunished. I stress the unbelievable influence that local politicians and religious leaders played in covering up the real state of play in the south-west.

MICHAEL KENNEDY 2005
http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/how-it-came-to-this/2005/12/16/1134703607918.html

The Cronulla former detective says: "The young police know that if they ever go in hard, THEY WILL GET NO BACK-UP FROM THE COURTS or the police hierarchy. They may be charged with assault and accused of being racist. So we have a static, scared, reactive police force that is driven by statistics, not arrests. That's why you're starting to see vigilante-type thinking."

BINGO !

RSL... ROTARY... LIONS... CHURCHES MOSQUES- ALL COMMUNITY ORGANIZATIONS.. MOBILISE, STAND AT THE GATES AND REBUKE THEM IN THE NAME OF THE PEOPLE.

Dear David,

My deepest sympathy to you for not getting that High Court Judge job.

I suppose a magistrate post wouldn't be good enough huh? Perhaps one in the Cronulla area....mmm?

Interesting support for David Flint and interesting opposition to him having the courage to speak out.

We should never be reduced to being fed only the views of the pre-sanitised politically correct.

Such denial of freedom of speech and expression might suit some but it will never suit this individual.

Regarding "radio hosts" - the power they have is in the support of their listening audience. If someone does not like what they say - turn to another station and watch their ratings dwindle.

Anyone who dislikes a particular point of view can simply Turn over, Tune out or Switch Off (apologies ot all overaged hippie afficondios) I personally never listen to Alan Jones (I cannot stand him) and that is my choice – but for those who do, good luck to them.

It does, however bring to mind - alot of people whining and whinging over the effect of the new anti-terror and sedition legislation and other "infringments to the freedom of the press". I wonder how many of those "whiners" are now going to suggest these "right-wing shock jocks" should be silenced?

I figure quite a few and I would further suggest "hypocrites" is a word which will quite adequately describe all of them.

Here are the current Acts and Regulations (Legislation) in force (official NSW Parliamentary Counsel's Office website):

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/scanact/inforce/NONE/0

Mr. Boaz, you may find the Crimes Act you are looking for under 'C', in the first section 'Acts in force'.

Also for the benefit of users of this forum, in addition to the Legislation index above, here is the official and comprehensive list of links to the Attorney Gerneral's Department:

http://www.australia.gov.au/portfolios#attorneygenerals

It has the following title:

'The Attorney-General's Department serves the people of Australia by providing essential expert support to the Government in the maintenance and improvement of Australia's system of law and justice.'

I would encourage everyone to familiarise themselves with the laws that they feel are relevant to them. The more people that know about the laws that govern them, the more stable and progressive our society will be. I believe that to be absolutely true. I know not one single school in Australia, either public or private, that teaches the school students of Australia about the legal system that will govern them for the remainder of their lives, except maybe as an elective subject for the HSC in SOME schools.. If someone knows of a school that does teach students about the legal system in its regular curriculum, please tell me where it is so I can send my kids there in the future if I ever have any.

I wish everyone who is interested in the laws that govern them good luck with their research.

In addition, below is a link to the 'Media Alliance Code of Ethics' (official website). Most media journalists in Australia are bound to this code, via their membership of the Australian Journalists Association.

http://www.alliance.org.au/content/view/17/60/

There have been countless breaches of this code over the past week in almost every media outlet. The distortions and exaggerations are intolerable. As well as government, journalists are also accountable for what they say and do. I would encourage everyone to remind those journalists who breach this code of their obligations.

I agree with the misuse of the word "multi-culturalism". Meaningless

Bring on the words "multi-racialism" and "racial segregation".. "
The "lebanese" as you call them have for arguments sake 20% of their cultural differences stemming from heritage, and 80% from the effects of racial segregation.

And silent majority? Silent? Majority? For now..

Freidriche, Listen sport - you say that the only good leftie is a dead one. I have been tagged as a leftie so many times that I am starting to think that the left is the best.

Access to schooling for all, access to health care, comunication systems, their anti-racist stand - look the list of outstanding and good things that those that are regarded as left has done is outstanding.

I used to know a socialist. His mates where he worked would always say (from memory): "Yeah he's a redrag, but he is one of the good socialists." Hey Pat! Still singing those old Guthrie tunes. Respect ya' mate.

Why that mob (the left) have done so much good that some people even argue that Jesus was the first socialist.

Of course, Hitler's National Socialist wanted some of those things, but there was some contions. You had to be a fascist and support the murder of Jews, homosexuals, union folk, communists, Marxists and non-Aryans. You had support (or be indifferent) to the invasion other lands to house or feed those from the Fatherland. You had to hate parliamentary democracy and resign yourselves to Hitler's dictorship. You had to loathe political correctness. And of course you had to be a racist and rationalise all the inhumanity under Nazi control.

Now listen Freidriche, I think Santa is nice and kind. So please don't wish Santa dead. You see he has long hair, a big bushy beard and wears a red suit. According to the rights logic, he must be a communist?

Reason, I heard that a young fella was jailed for four months for carrying a weapon (a tree branch). I think that that is too harsh and isn't going to help him see sense. If anything, he will come out knowing how to deal with the police and that there are many ways to hurt folk. I was shown how to inconspicuously kill a person in a crowd whilst in jail.
Nevertheless, there is little police can do in most situations of bullying. For instance: I suggested that certain behaviour of local thugs in my area needed to be nipped in the butt before it escalates. My thinking was that every time that the thugs got away with something it would not only embolden them - but others as well. I think that this is the national situation. The police officer's response was - yes I agree but the police are limited in what they can do. They can't even go and talk it through. I was told to carry a tape recorder.

Reason. I like certain aspects of some wild subcultures. One thing I hate (yes I do hate) is the hate directed at good police. I have been in a watch house and seen first hand what police endure. It is shameful that anyone should treat another group of people (the police) the way some do. Not saying all police are angels - some of them are common thugs.

However, that police officer on the train did a good job of protecting a citizen. It didn't matter to him whether the victim was black, white, Muslim, Christian or any of those artifical things imposed over others humanity and citizenry. Constable Care dug his heals in and did the service proud.
The thing is this is often the lot of police officers. To quote a police officer (from memory). "I am too tired today for that. I have been wrestling drunks in the back of a patrol car all night. Just too stuffed to play. Tell the guys I'll be there next week." (Standing in the shadows of giants).

Rancitus

Your assertions re free schooling, access to health care, access/development of the communications system, and the insuinuation the anti-racist stand being the preserve of the leftie do-gooders is not correct.

Free schooling was initiated in NSW by the churches.
A Government Select Committee (which) '... led, in 1848, to the establishment of two boards to control education in NSW - a Denominational School Board responsible for the distribution of government subsidies to church schools; and a Board of National Education charged with establishing a separate system of public schools and teacher training.'
http://www.sag.org.au/ozsources/education.htm
The truth is our egalitarian heritage is clearly visible and to add to the image that egalitarianism was evident again in 1919 when
'The NSW Teachers Federation held it's first conference ...'
http://www.nswtf.org.au/about/history2.html

Access to health care. NSW again. I am unable to copy and paste from the article so I will give a brief synopsis from parts of
'A History of Medical Administration in New South Wales 1788-1973' by Dr C.J. Cummins, who was Director-General of Public Health from 1959 to 1975.
http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/history/med_admin/

Initially public health care was in the hands of private charitable organisations. In 1862 the Government took over some of those and run them under the title 'Board of Government asylums for the Imfirm and the Destitute'. That proved unsatisfactory. The point is the history was of true egalitarianism not leftie dogooding. The other major impetus to public health care was the Sydney Dispensary/Infirmary, a private charity. The donars were a list of the colony's elite capitalists. Medical services were given free by Doctors of the day. The care was free of charge. The formation of government controlled Public Heath Care occurred with Government taking over inspection and financial control of many institutions following the Second Royal Commisssion into Charities in 1888-89.
Egalitarianism at it's very best.

By communications system I think you mean post office, telephone, the print media, radio and tv.

I'm pleased to totally refute the leftie misinformation.

'From the earliest days of European settlement in Australia, communication services have been seen as the almost exclusive responsibility of government... until 1832, when Tasmania established the first post office as a Government Department...This began a pattern that was to dominate the communication industry for the next 150 years - almost complete government control of Australia’s communications services.'

http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/b6c38acb7d28699cca2569de0028de97?OpenDocument
Australian Bureau of Statistics Yearbook 2001.

Utterly all the work of egalitarians.

Finally the leftie's anti racist stand.

WHITE AUSTRALIA POLICY.

Instigated by members of our first federal parliament intent on protecting the wages and condition of the workers of this country who feared an avalanche of Asian migration. Many of those MPs went on to became members of the AUSTRALIAN LABOUR PARTY.
The White Australia Policy was dismantled over a period of time in the 1950's and 60's as a result of the actions of Percy Spender, R.G.Casey and Harold Holt. Holt finally abolished the act when he became PM. They were all Liberals and ... egalitarian.

To be fair lefties in this country have contributed greatly to our systems of public education, public health care, extensive communications system, and have belatedly adopted anti-racist attitudes.
But so have the capitalists, liberals, nationalists, conservatives, greens, democrats and numerous independant individuals in this country over the past 200 odd years. I'd go so far as to claim the capitalists, liberals, conservatives and independants actually led and still lead the way. :-)

These substantiated facts will surprise your mate.

Laterly we have seen the view you've expressed become quite common. It insinuates all the social advances in our society were and are carried out by only lefties. There is an invidious trend to equate egalitarianism with leftist ideals. It insinuates only lefties developed, fostered and care about the future our egalitarian institutions and values.

Egalitarianism runs much more broadly and deepely in Australian Society than leftism ever did.

Yep I couldn't sleep and was really really bored...

Good posts Keith,
I'll take history in your class any day.

Rancitas.
your posts (however misguided as per Keiths explanation) appear to be one of the first where I can say you seem to be speaking from the heart, rather than the 'political head'. BRAVO !

I fear you and other 'lefties' have the distorted view that the 'right' as you often describe it, and in particular the 'rabid religious right' are all about mistreating and exploiting the less empowered in this land.

Keith did an excellent job of putting some history and balance back into that opinion.

I weary of being linked in peoples minds with the 'rabid/racist/exploitative' right, when the reality is that I (and I'm sure most other Christians here) are closer to what Keith showed, and this is because we have at the very foundation of the Christian community some VERY 'socialist' so to speak ideas about community:

<<The other major impetus to public health care was the Sydney Dispensary/Infirmary, a private charity. The donars were a list of the colony's elite capitalists. Medical services were given free by Doctors of the day. The care was free of charge.>>

This sounds remarkably like the 2nd chapter of Acts:

<<42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.>>

So, the Biblical position on social organization is mutual care and provision for those in need.

Which raises the question "Why do we always seem to be fighting verbally here" ?

It seems to me that as soon as society departs from God, it polarizes into 'them/us' along lines of vested economic interest, and we evolve 'LEFT' and 'RIGHT' power blocks.

So, I repeat my mantra "No political system will address the needs of the people, only renewed PEOPLE will achieve this"

<<17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come>>2cor5:17

Freidrich, you say

"Nazi Germany controlled the press for the good of the mother land. The left don't care about Australia. That's a big difference. The left is about race mixing and sexual perversions(child porn etc). The only good leftie is a dead one."

Oh, yes, the Nazis were just great for Germany and the rest of Europe weren't they? And since when has the left of politics had any connection to child porn? As for dead lefties, I think the comment would be more apposite to dead nazis. Get back under your rock. On second thoughts, keep up the posts - people need to be aware that people like you are out there. Eternal vigilance and all that.

As for David Flint, does he have any evidence for his claim about the poor neutered police and the soft justice system letting the ethnic gangs off lightly? Didn't think so. Same old BS.

Hellothere the evidence is in our courts on a daily basis.Judges won't give real punishments and hence there is no deterrents.The police force has been neutered.Privately they admit that them selves.

Just another anecdote from the past.I remember back in 1981 in Parramatta the Muslims were shooting up the Lebanese Chistian church becasue of their new statue of the Madonna was too prominate.The council made the chistians take the statue down because it was offending the Muslims.Just a few days ago the Australian flag was removed from Police Stations in Bankstown because it might offend the Muslims.When are we going to face them honestly and tell them to behave .

The left continue to be selective about what they want to hear because they are the prime culprits in creating this mess and that is why they will continue to scream racist at the Anglos to try and shame us into submission and not admit to Middle Eastern thuggery and racism.

This is a mess primarily caused by leftist idealism,that has been dishonest,deceptive who now are ducking for cover under an umbrella of finger pointing and calling us xenophobic.Just listen to the ratbag protesters calling the people of cronulla racist.They have been copping bashings and intimidation from Middle Eastern gangs for decades.Finally they just had enough.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17603419%255E1702,00.html
Beazley warns against segregation

<snip>Mr Beazley said "it was a crying shame" the antidote to the violence such as the talks between community members, politicians and the police response, did not make headlines around the globe.</snip>

This is what I would like to see happen more often. Not a comment on a blog (however useful that is to 'vent' concerns). I like to see positive and proactive collaborative action - why not sneak away from your computer today and say hello to someone you normally wouldn't...

Pt 1.
Keith, see Karl Marx’s Political Writings states: Point 10: Free education for all children in public schools.
Point 6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state. (Damn I forgot railways and roads). (Note: The state supposedly being in the democratic hands of the public. Rancid)
Boaz, You assert that I am a leftie (therefore, according to your mate Friedreich, superior if dead). How did you come to that conclusion Boaz.? I have made it clear before that I am neither left nor right. (A vigilante would have beaten me to death by now.) You and other OLOers have come to that conclusion because I (and others) have expressed opinions on OLO that are in favour of public education, keeping communications (Telstra, Australia Post ) in public hands, and oppose racism. Anyone on OLO who takes these positions is “regarded” a “leftie do-gooder”. That should address Keith’s exercise in history too. Immediate observation was my context – not to mention the years of being told that the public education system, public ownership of utilities are socialist concepts and that people who support Indigenous rights or environmentalists are commies (and deserve to die).
Keith you use incorrect logic. For instance: You skip from my qualification that these things are “regarded” as left to me asserting them as an absolute left ideas. Now you read back through OLO and newspaper letters and you will see that the people who support those things are often tagged as left. You have refuted nothing.
To properly refute my opinion you must go back in time and prove that those organisations and individuals who started these ventures for the public good were not ever “regarded” as leftie do-gooders. Reading OLO posts today they would be “regarded” as leftist (and rightist). Moreover, they followed K.M’s Point 6 and 10 above. ( Damn my self indulgence but ummm feels good). (Playfulness).

Part 2
Boaz re: your patronising claim that I am “heart” and don’t know my political history. (Not quiet sure how that leads to your claim I am leftist). I have intentionally never joined or supported any particular political group because it clouds ones perceptions. So I can tell you why with little bias certain groups (usually the far right) regard, remember I said “regard” public education etc as socialist (left).
See Karl Marx’s Political Writings Point Ten and Six (Part One).
Now I agree with these particular Marxist (social democratic) concepts, not because I am a Marxist or left, but because they are fair and just way to run a society - just as I think Marx’s philosophical works in relation to ideology, historical materialism and so on are helpful and I feel sorry for people who just dismiss his works as leftist propaganda. ( I rrecall a letter writer who was adamant that Karl Marx was a dictator and propagandists – rather than a philosopher).
I disagree with the other eight points in Political Writings because the vanguard is unlikely to go to the promised next stage (unless Rancid the benevolent dictator is in charge). I oppose the abolition of property rights (every bird builds a nest) and the inherent racism and undemocraticness re: free speech of Point 4: Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. (Rebels and responsible free speech are co-dependant.)
Boaz, perhaps it is a matter of too much head banging but we have something in common. Take a seat old mate. I agree with your assertion: "No political system will address the needs of the people, only renewed PEOPLE will achieve this" However, it stands to reason that a renewed people will vote for people with heart.
Boaz you only agree with Keith’s skewed logic because Keith's attempt to discredit my post supports your politics.
Keith I love the challenge (wish I had more time on my side for more rigour). Take your point though –gotta respect the Christian do-gooders even if they can be tagged as leftist. (Kelpie pup ).

Bloody David Flint again! Why am I at all surprised? This unctious little right wing toady and apologist of Alan Jones is once again so far up his own fundamental.
Talkback come of age? Get real, its been a manipulator of the less wholistically educated for decades. Many USED to turn to it for light entertainment,now many turn to it out of habit,a desire to be titillated. Sadly many dont possess critical reasoning faculties to discern between truth and dribble. Many more see a justification for their simplistic views.
Power over a gullible audience? You betcha. Flint claims radio doesnt affect the gullible, yet advertisers buy spots on those very programs.
Journos 'have to come from a soft leftie culture? What utter nonsense. They're exposed to more of everything than most of us read. Due to time and 'editorial reasons' (censorship by any other name) we see/hear a fraction of the news of the day. Journos tend to be'left'? 'Human' might be more accurate. They see and hear it all, unvarnished. They're sceptical of the right...AND the left.
Multiculturalism has ALWAYS been a part of our society.we have ALWAYS had immigrants from all over the world, and we're the better for it.
Flint's arguments are as usual both specious and political, motivated by his desire to maintain some degree of privelege for a 'select few' for whom he dares to maintain some sort of pseudo spokesperson role. He's a fraud.

its not easy going and AMSADL,

Good on you,for your first posts. (I have not gone beyond the first few comments.)

I just wonder why OLO gives so much space to people like Flint, who has little credibility, other than amongst those who would align with any 'cunning jock' dressed in civilised veneer, to batter those who are not on their side.

Another such favoured person is Kevin Donnelly. Especially when his status as a hired gun of the government was never revealed. (Please, those tempted, refrain from telling me that Donnelly can have his professional integrity sometimes, and the spin that his employer requires other times.)

Cheers

Chek

Yes Rancitus,

I am aware Karl Marx was a committed egalitarian. But his stated desires far exceeded anything Australian egalitarians desired. Recall his views on the distribution of Land, Wealth and the Means of Production. Unlike our egalitarians Marx rejected concepts of individualism, religion, and individual rights. Many of our instutionalised egalitarianisms were already in place by the time Marx published the Manifesto of the Communist Party (1847-49.) and his three part Das Capital (1867 to 1895).
I think we can discount Marx as an influence on our much earlier flowering of egalitarianism. Maybe he followed our lead?
You made no mention of transportion systems in your initial post and I assume you'd agree that is an entirely different subject to communications.

However rancid a few find the sale of telstra, it will still occur. It will not be the end of the world and really I've detested the whole concept of public owned communications since I received my first bloated telephone bill. It was just so disgustingly not a 'fair go'. I've never changed that opinion and hope privatisation will change that abberation in our society.

Australia Post was privatised and the sky didn't fall in. Does anyone post letters these days?
Who is against public schoolling etc? I haven't assumed you are a leftie dogoodder. I was hoping you'd pass my post on to your leftie mate.

You were merely addressing the immediate observation. That's a commom error. Our present is not isolated from our past.

I don't know who suggested to you the public education system, public ownership of utilities are socialist concepts. I thought I showed they're not. Socialists die...nahhhh they turn into greens, democrats, social democrats, academics and a myrid of other cleverly disguised non-de-plumes.

I agree about the inaccurate labelling here. I've been called a 'Cultural imperialist' and 'a trendy leftie'. Both bought howls of derisive laughter in my household.

However the Australians who instigated our now traditional egalitarianism didn't know about socialism - they preceeded it. In light of that fact I do see how you have self-indulged yourself...playfully of course. :-)

Rancitas,
When some one brainwashed you they left the sudds in.
Karl Marx was a low life bum who bludgged of everyone else and never worked, (Sounds Familiar these days) bribed his own mother and father, and committed extortion against his own family, and was a vindictive racist, hated everyone, far left if you like.All his mates were the same. Interesting read some of his publications to News paper’s, Sounds more like a Hitler Rant than an intellectual;but that is the point; read more and you will find where Hitler’s inspiration actually came from. No ,not a coincidence ether. Leftists do have more in common, Pathological;Neurological, relative investigations.
Here is the link, and translations of most of his publications: You will be disappointed very disappointed.
http://marxwords.blogspot.com/
This explains everything;
Sorry to be the one that destroys the left’s Messiah, but it has to be done in the name of Civilization.
I can deconstruct Chomsky to if you like, but a little off the thread.

Arjay, what are these not real punishments the judges are giving, and how have the police been neutered?

Can you give me one example of a Lebanese gang member who has been let off a criminal charge because they are Lebanese? Can you point to any research which indicates that sentences are lighter for ethnic minorities? Why if the system is so soft on minorities are they so over-represented in jail?

I'm not saying that there isn't fault on both sides here, but I keep hearing this claim that police and courts are soft etc without any evidence to back it up. And how have the police been neutered? Have their batons gone limp the poor things? Are they not allowed to do as many back alley bashings anymore - if that's neutered, then tough luck, the police are meant to enforce the law, not break it.

I could be wrong about all this, but I just find it a bit hard to accept that crime is so out of control etc when I live in a fairly multicultural area of Melbourne and I haven't seen or experienced any trouble except for the occasional beggar - I've never felt safer in my life.

Well hello there,an appropiate name.Which sand dune on Cronulla Beach do you regularly stick your head in?Only the serious Middle Eastern thugs actually make it to gaol.You have to do something pretty nasty to end up there.Well our gaols will be a lot fuller if Morris Iemma has the ticker.I don't think he has.Mr 45 degrees is looking a bit obtuse and scared.These nutters will stop at nothing.

When my son was assaulted the police advised him not to press charges because they were under age and the magistrates would do nothing.It was a waste of time.Much of the crime perpetrated by these gangs goes unreported because we don't have the police numbers to cope with it.

Nearly all of the thugs and rioters at Maroubra and Cronulla are out on bail.Morris is pretending to be unhappy.It is all a political stunt to deflect the blame from his PC Govt.

Iemmas seat is lakemba

Ev,

I know more about Germany than you ever will. Just because I'm not there and haven't been there for quite a while doesn't mean I don't know what's happening. As for being in jail,what you say is correct. Ev tell me something I don't know. If you are going to address me please tell me something new.

The answer to your question is in your question.

By the way Ev the Fatherland was much better a few years back.

Cheers

All- your statement & link are both rubbish.
You, and others, take the works of Marx & Engels out of context. In their works, they respond to the prevailing conditions of the Industrial revolution of the 19th century. They, & others, proposed a pathway for the liberation of the working majority, a more or less powerless majority of the time. Marx & others could not see the possibility of ‘soft’ reforms such as Unionism. They proposed a model for ‘State’ & the only pathway they could see was forced revolution, an overhaul, violent or otherwise. They neglected the need for change of the individual. And they neglected the need for non-violence as a pathway. This is why there never has been anything resembling a true Marxist State.
Marxism should be used today as a framework for the development of society. We have come to understand the need for individual change since Satre & the 1960’s peace movement. Attitudes must change to allow for a truly equal, non-violent society. There is a global tendency toward this ‘holistic’ approach to politics & society.
Probably the most relevant & successful of the Marxist-based organisations is the Siloist ‘Humanist Movement’. Try

http://www.humanisten.ch/hi/front/index.php?lang=en

http://www.humanistparty.org.uk/links.htm

http://www.humanistmovement.org/

http://www.peacebound.com/

Friedrich,

I came here to learn Deutsch and to teach English. I certainly don't know everything about Germany. It's quite possible that you know more about Germany than me, and it doesn't bother me if you do. I'm guessing though, that I know more about Australian military history, and Australian history in general, although I wouldn't call myself an expert.

You said previously:
'Nazi Germany controlled the press for the good of the mother land.'
Here you have expressed support for the policies of the Nazi Party, which ceased to function as a legitimate political party at the end of WW2. The policies of the Nazi Party, as you may know, led to widespread chaos and destruction, including the killing and wounding of hundreds of thousands of Australians who were enlisted to fight against them.

That is why I asked a serious question if you considered yourself to be a Nazi or an Aussie, because the two are naturally not compatible.

RAncitas
sorry for 'labelling you' unfairly.. to be truthful, I tend to agree with the idea of major public institutions being in government hands, so I guess I'm a lefty too. I absolutely believe in a
-"Peoples Bank" to make finance affordable to the low income mob.
-Public education for all, though 'free' is a bit optimistic in the harsh world of dog eat dog international economics.
-Communications (Telstra at least), yep.. that too. I don't like the idea of Singtel owning a crucial satelite through which much of our defense intelligence data flows (I think)
-Corrections. The idea of "Jails for profit" is anathema to me.

I feel these things for the same reasons you do. "public interest"

The reason I am always calling us to "Christ-is that we will only ever find the level of renewal for a just selfless society when we are rightly related to God in Him. I am not for 'Theocracy' in this world, nor am I for a 'State Church', but I am very much for a 'Christian' flavor to all our cultural and social life, where government can be called to account by the Church in a 'prophetic' way, as I'm often quoting from Isaiah and other prophets who were never high on the government(KIngs) popularity list for that very reason.

Apart from Christ as our moral Anchor, we will end up with the loudest voices prevailing, and those voices will want to erect a building in the shape of a huge Penis (Melbourne) and the associated social degradation (for Israel it was the Baals and Ashteroths and 'high places') When they departed from God, they ended up with cult prostitutes, injustice, survival of the fittest, and all kinds of debauchery.

Marx might have had some (and I definitely mean 'some' not all) superfically good ideas, but he definitely failed to comprehend the human nature flaw in his theory.

SWILKIE "Sartre ? Peace movement" ? gimme a break, it was him who showed how it is irrational to do other than trample on anyone who gets in your way.(when we reject God)

Ev,

Keep up the good work.

From time to time, societies are "tested" to see how they react. A little "shock" is administered and the results carefully monitored, in the manner of a seismic survey.

Such seismic studies are the speciality of those who inform and advise government in our brave new world.

Take this little gem of an outcome from somewhere in Africa:

Radio broadcasts on August 8 (1998) from a government regional radio in the eastern town of Bunia monitored by the BBC called on the local population to use "a machete, a spear, an arrow, a hoe, spades, rakes, nails, truncheons, electric irons, barbed wire, stones, and the like, in order, dear listeners, to kill the Rwandan Tutsis."

On Wednesday the 12th, a local commander of the Congolese army called on Bunia residents to "take revenge" on the Rwandans and "massacre them without mercy."

Ah, the power of the humble wireless.

Always ask, cui bono, "who benefits"? .... and be careful what you wish for.

Chris Shaw,

Very Profound post.

Always ask, cui bono, "who benefits"?

Well, Viva Botany Vegas and desal my-sartorial-le-sands, who could it be?

Hellothere, you asked.

Case 1:

Lebanese youth found in Brighton Le Sands Sunday with baseball bats, no arrests made.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/vehicles-fitted-out-for-a-day-of-mayhem/2005/12/18/1134840742480.html

"About half an hour after that group had been taken away, the Herald observed police talking to at least four young men of Middle Eastern appearance in West Botany Street.

The police officers had confiscated two baseball bats but did not arrest any of the men."

This is after the new laws have been enacted, after all the commotion earlier in the week. Maybe they were just heading to a ball game?

Case 2:

Molotov cocktail throw AT POLICE in Sydney's south-west, no arrest made.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/police-use-new-powers-in-night-of-unrest/2005/12/16/1134676426499.html

"A molotov cocktail was thrown at police in "a disturbing incident" at Dickens Road, Ambarvale, south west of Sydney, about 10pm, he said.

"Police conducted a search of the area and located a number of other incendiary devices and what appeared to be stockpiled stones," Mr Owens said.

Although no arrests were made over that incident, two men, aged 24 and 23, were charged with making explosives with intent ot injure after police found seven molotov cocktails in a Cronulla unit, about 6pm."

Now surely the guy must have been fairly close to the police in order to have a shot at them with a molotov, why wasn't he chased down and arrested? This doesn't appear to have occurred in the context of a group riot of anything like that, the police should have tackled him, instead they've piss farted around and searched the area after the incident. Another example of softly softly policing, and the offenders get away with malicious violence directed at police officers (in Sydney's south-west).

Notice above Cronulla people with molotovs stored in their own home were arrested.

Harry

At least we can pressure for transparency in the police force. To lobby for an enquiry into reverse discrimination by the police force and Iemma (seeing as his seat is that of lakemba) is not to hard. Many cases of reverse discrimination have been won in the USA.

It’s just a matter of a petition.

What I find obscene is the “peace pact” between the Comancheros leb majority bikie gang (Milperra Massacre) and the Bra Boys… was it a case of “peace our way or we kill you” the usual muslim solution

No Swiki,
You can only asses a man by his conduct, the ranting he wrote was entire junk, so he even admitted on his death bed.
It is more intriguing to read his correspondence to Papers and friends, Enemies also:

Here is the Karl Marx glossary link; Official not opinionated.

http://www.marxists.org/glossary/index.htm

Karl Marx at the time was dismissed as a Psychiatric case; the severity of his condition is the end result of his work.
The other links you provided are a direct result in part, Marx and Engle’s fascination with Spinoza, as well as other such Surrealist philosophers. He to have some problems.

Communism and Socialism is a direct form of near subliminal messaging, simply put; preparing you to be looted of your life and thought and possessions: that was the sub-text not mentioned. Odd, exact thing transpired in the great depression of the Thirties. Where did the money and employment go?

http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/books/bolshevik_revolution/index.html

http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/books/best_enemy/index.html

http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/index.html

Looters in control- Public welfare are the express train that run you over. Elite Looter welfare is what it meant.
Retrospectively History tells us that, Looters kill economies, Russia, Nth Korea, China, aaha? It is coming.

All- you have commented on Marx and Rancitas. You say others are "conditioned" and yet you pump out all these websites and positioned blogs. It suggests to me that perhaps you are conditioned.
Now why don't you comment on Marx's concepts re: historical materialism, dialectical materialism, his ideas on the ideological and so on. I suggest Kamenkas "The Portable Karl Marx". These (Marx's) philosophical writings can be quiet helpful in understanding the forces within our society.
For instance: De Bottom says: "For Marx, it is the ruling class of a society who will be largely responsible for disseminating ideological beliefs, which explains why, in certain societies where a landed class controls the balance of power, the concept of the inherent nobility of landed wealth is taken for granted by the majority of the population (even by many of those who lose out under ther system), while in mercantle societies it is the achievements of entrepreneurs which dominate citizens' visions of success. In Marx's phrase, "The ruling ideas of every age are always the ideas of the ruling class."
Yet these ideas would never come to rule if they were seen to rule too forcefully. The essence of ideological statements is that, unless our politcal senses are developed, we will fail to spot them. Ideology is released into society like a colourless, odourless gas. It is embedded in newspapers, advertisements, television programmes and textbooks (Rancid note: also All-'s websites) - where it makes light of its partial, perhaps illogical or unjust, take on the world; where it meekly implies that it is simply stating, age-old truths with which only a fool or a maniac would disagree."

All-motivated commentators often attack Marx's ideas because it steers folk from seeing their true situation - it can, ironically, empower the individual. One of the first things a truly critical thinker does is discard their ideology. Shock jocks don't do that.

Keith: I am not sure what your point is. Here is a letter that may help you to understand my statements a little more. Without a lie this fell into my lap. I was using it as a bookmark (maybe there are angels).
Sept 18 about 12 years ago.
Deliberate Inflation
I was horrified recently to hear the Liberals offering a consumption tax as a platform to regain the Governmant of Austraia.
A consumption tax, or Vat, to give it its now commonly recognised name, is nothing short of deliberate inflation of prices. Karl Marx in his communist manifesto, recommended as the first essential step to socialise the free society was a graduated progressive taxation.
for the Liberals to say they will reduce personal tax is an untruth. No government has ever reduced taxation. All governments have always carried out Marx's progressive taxation.
As the only solution to this problem i recommend to able men of goodwill to get behind the Citizen's electoral council concept, where your Member of Parliament is bound to vote according to instructions from his own electorate." (Name address supplied.)
Parliament house would be a bit packed - ahy. Nevertheless. Letters similar to this were common back then and often used similar arguments to question the utilities we have touched on. Just typed all this stuff for you two so ya' better read it. How on earth could you typo w for a t.(theatre).

Boaz,
I agree with >> "Sartre ? Peace movement" ? gimme a break, it was him who showed how it is irrational to do other than trample on anyone who gets in your way.(when we reject God) <<. That is entirely the point. We cannot, as human, reject faith & meaning (as State control & Capitalism would often wish). 'Faith & meaning' is essential to the growth of the individual & society. We westerners collectively realised this (or simply realised that all was not good & 'partied hard') during the 1960's. Organisations such as the Humanist movement work with a holistic approach &, accordingly, accept all non-violent religious activity, as well as providing their own meditation.
All- (& Boaz), the point is that Marx was responding to the conditions at his time & place. Personally, I do not agree with many of his ideas. To take his writings literally in their application to 21st century humanity is almost ridiculous. It must be recognised he was a one of the first major publishers of 'leftist' thinking on social structure. As I have said, 'leftism' has evolved. True 'leftism' now searches for a balance between the individual & society, through non-violent means.

I hear a lot of noise being made about the arrests of white supremisists and those nazi nutters.Their pictures are proudly displayed in all our media.Easy targets that don't have the power to retaliate.

Carl Scully has twice referred the Cronulla mob of 5000 as being the racists who are the sole perpetrators of this conflict.Both he and Morris Iemma are inflaming the situation by not giving an balanced view of what really happened.It is really quite disgusting.

Not one house searched or person of Middle Eastern appearence being arrested in Bankstown or Lakemba for hoarding weapons.They won't go into their territory,it is just too dangerous.They made their statement when hundreds surrounded the Lakemba Mosque.The police were too scared to act.People attacked for filming and no action taken.Why did two Police Stations remove the Australian flag after the riots? Is this not appeasement?Don't all Australians respect our flag?

Well now we know who really runs this City of Sydney,it is not Morris Iemma,not the Police Service,it is the Middle Eastern thugs.

our man flint has hit the nail on the head.

one of the best articles ive read about the sydney situation and he exposes the real problem of a lack of policing and an ability to confront and control arab street gangs.

his analysis of our left wing dominated media is spot on and the shift from news reporting to campaign mode cheer leading explains why fewer and fewer people trust the MSM anymore.

Swekie,
Thank heavens for that:
I would be hard to argue the benefit of the left of 40 years , and the change that was forced, But to date they have totally lost the plot, and engage in the evils of days gone by; I would not subscribe to conspiracy theories, but at this point in time it is more of a Psychosis conditioning, some attributes may well be genetic and neurological disorders, i.e., Mild Autism and Schizophrenia. Sounds harsh, but it is well documented, and thus substantiates some theories in pathological behavior and attitudes, think of it as trying to gage a level of honesty, be it a little lie or a Whopper, there are no levels of Honesty, ether it is or is not –there can be no middle ground.
People need to study the Hellenistic civilization and the philosophy that made it then: - and is the premise of our existence in Western Societies.(Yes we are in the rapid decline)
DB, a major factor to why Christianity is on the decline, is mainly the ministry in all sects have a adopted Marxism as a major study and have for 40 odd years, these Ideals conflict with the Now Metaphysics, and you find more pastors etc belching Leftist propaganda rather than the teachings of the bible and Jesus, true fact unfortunately. It has become self Nihilistic because of it. That need’s to be changed.
Capitalism or it is the Gun, and Marxism’s tax scale is in forced, but under the autohypnosis of Fascism, yes Fascism, Half Government, half private. And it will self destruct.
Raise some Eye browse.

Sorry to hear about your son being attacked Arjay. I agree that we need to be tough on violent crime, no matter who is committing it. I'm just not convinced that the problem is exclusively a Lebanese one, I've known people who have been assaulted by gangs and the gangs weren't Lebanese. The police weren't real interested then either.

Harry C, I have no idea why the police didn't catch the person who threw a Molotov cocktail at them..obviously, if Lebanese people are breaking the law then they should be treated just like anyone else. The baseball bats thing is a bit of a fine line, I'm not sure that just having a baseball bat is a crime. Are you aware of any anglo-australians being arrested for posession of baseball bats?

There'd be an uproar if Aussies were arrested carrying cricket bats

Bleached Bones on a Sunlit Beach

Sitting under a clear dark southern sky
Looking at a cross most sacred to the eye,
Pondering a crescent moon about to die;
Nay, next phase, in hope, a whole new pie.

In between the constant moving mix
Of lunar and stars the ages usually fix,
The fears and worries of a past reflex,
Now need reconcile bow and genuflect.

T'is a tiresome trouble of centuries past.
Arising in enlightened age, much aghast.
The mores of communities in differ repast,
Unfair and closed or egalitarian and vast?

Sitting under a clear dark southern sky
Looking at a cross most sacred to the eye
Pondering how fairness was cast in our die
By generations legacy left that does not lie.

The contrast of places imbibed in fear,
Of all that grand life provides so dear.
Other places far removed from the near.
The refuge offered but beliefs do sneer.

T’is a tiresome trouble of centuries past,
Arising in enlightened age; much aghast.
The blunted vision of prophecy ill asked,
To compromise the vision of a guided past.

Sitting under a clear dark southern sky
Looking at a cross most sacred to the eye
The crescent of false belief will pass us by
Our world of hope and faith will never die.

The scourge of dogma and bitter hate,
We’ve learned to reject, not just of late,
For we’ve travelled the paths mostly, mate,
And rejected them as an unfortunate fate.

We of the clear cross in the southern sky
Wondrous of all alternative we’ve come by.
One condition our egalitarianism is left undrowned
Like sacred Anzac bones in special Muslim ground

Keith

I am still digesting your poem above.

The cricket bat previous post had me in stitches. We played cricket in the backyard most afternoons in the season - sh*t and Mrs Martin got angry many times because of innocent broken windows. Then she would invite us in to watch TV at the end of the day ('cos we didn't have one). What a rort!

Dad used to carry two cricket bats in the car boot on Saturday mornings - just in case my brother had a problem with one.

Keith, I know that you have been on this and other threads on several occasions.

I shake my head when we accept that people are carrying and bashing with baseball bats. Weird eh? Given that baseball has never been a noteable sport in this country (although beginning with some white Aussies), I think that people who are selling heaps of baseball bats have to ask themselves the reason for an increase in sales? As far as I know, not even the "shock jocks" have raised what I am suggesting?

Correct me if I am wrong, the male people of reported "Middle Eastern etc" - the thugs I mean, do not engage in the usual Aussie sports, vis a vis: footie, basketball, swimming, hockey, ARL, NRL, soccer - or is there a US Baseball Team of the Thug Ilk that I do not know about?

I know I sound sinister, but having read threads here for weeks about bashing and baseball bats - I think that my questions are valid - not directed at you - directed at this Forum.

Merry Christmas
Kay

the melbourne age, otherwise known as the Spencer Street Soviet, is on the way to failure from falling circulation, robbing melbourne of its Fairfax voice

The journos there are now all hard left propagandists and their main interest is in competing with eachother to proclaim their moral superiority,purity and virtue, rather than informing and entertaining their readers

Only a small percentage of australians are of the hard left but virtually all journalists and commenters are. I agree that the shock jocks are more in touch with the silent majority who by the way, never engage in demos or other made for the media publicity stunts

Hi, Harry34

No doublt the shock jocks connect well wtih their constituency. Some have even been known to cultivate certain types of thier audience with a carton or similar to keep their program going the way they want it - to claim the audience size that would allow them the ransom they ask of big corporations craving for their favourable coverage on air.

Do you make a distinction between knowing how to exploit the darker side of our populace by people in positions of power and the understanding of what it is that ails our fragmenting society and what needs to be done by our leaders to rectify our social ailments?

Too many in this forum I feel just need to get a kick out of being part of the "winners" in any social debacle.

Reminds me of a black sheep in a well established family taking it out on his social inferiors at he slightest ruse.

Cheers

Chek

Swilks....
good to see the 'left' has caught up after all this time with the basic teaching of Jesus and the life of the earliest Christians :)

took them a while though.

It would have been far easier to just maintain our connection to and relationship with the Lord Himself.

But then, we would never have seen the sickening picture of 2 men getting 'married' in the UK. Elton and buddy.

No wonder the Muslims say we are 'decadent infidels', though they have their own issues which are far worse in my humble view.

Now, we have selectively caught up (the left that is) with Christ, but in neglecting the natural order of things with relationships, we consign ourselves to an uncertain future, where 'if it feels good, do it' seems to rule. I guess that's the price of freedom.

Shock Jocks working for commercial broadcasters are a lot like 'Satan'
he dangles tantalizing tid bits of information, to entice our unthinking actions, the RIPS it away at the last moment just when we were about to bite, and his minions of sponsors congratulate him once again, on gaining invaluable high rating advertising time.

Now that Christ-mass is upon us, lets put aside our issues, and look to Him (Jesus), not to shock jocks, for our inspiration and light.
Perhaps in the new year, we can all 'see' more clearly

hellothere, technically not what you were asking for, but we do have the guy doing 4 months in jail for carrying a tree branch in public. He was in Penrith at the time (2 am) but had been in Cronulla that day.

Apparently he was "possessing an offensive implement in a public place." (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17566018-29277,00.html)

Cops must be in full swing tracking down those Glocks.

Keith, You also assumed that I was talking about who established access to the services and institutions I mentioned - rather than who are the ones defending them.
Those "regarded" as left are still the ones who are trying to maintain access. To defend the rights of people to equal and fair access to services and institutuions. Re: the race thingo. Come on. a person of your intellect. The far-right set up web sites like Redwatch, Leftiewatch and all the other nonsense to attack anyone who speaks against racism.

Just read All-'s childish nonsense.
Assume makes and "ass" out of "u" and "me". (Fairplay)

Rancitas:
You are a hard person to convince:
There is no right, only Left. (See History)
Ether Ideological and ego motive (Left) or it can only be correct assumptions, and Evolutionary doctrines. You can not control them; they are the Metaphysics and the meaning of life, not a surreal thought.

Merry Christmas. Santa Comes tomorrow night.

And on that note: My favorite Catch expression for the year is:

“It is OK to view things with an open mind, but there is not any need to have the mind so open that your brains fall out”.

Boaz, All- & others,
Note that the 'New Left' accepts all religions. Probably the only prerequisite is that those purporting to be 'of the left', but with a specific faith also accept the right of others to worship whatever God they wish, in a non-violent manner.
For the unaware, 'Non-violence' has a far deeper & broader meaning than the conventional understanding of the term. Discrimination of all forms fall well within the category of violence.
It is part of ones journey through life to locate, understand & deal with ones own 'internal' violence. It is also ones duty to work against social violence of all forms. This is the 'ying & yang' of new leftism. The internal & external. The essential part ignored by Marx.

May everyone have a merry & peaceful Christmas...

Dear Swilkie
I have just returned from a glorious break, now back to business.

I used some of my time to read pretty much all of Genesis. From the Flood to the end. It was without question one of the most beneficial and illuminating reads I've had in years, yet I've read it all b4, quite a number of times. This time I looked with a much more critical eye, and approached it from a Soliological, Anthropological, Historical and Political angle.

I conclude that what we have there is just the tip of the iceberg, but without it, we would not know icebergs exist so to speak.

Regarding your rather utopian and idealistic view of 'non-violence' I SERIOUSLY recommend a read of the same material. Swilks.. life and humanity boil down to this "And when Abraham and Lots flocks grew large, there was no longer room for them in the land,...their herdsmen started to quarrel" You can talk nonviolence till the cows come home, but it only works in Lygon street cafe's and Academic literature.

The rubber meets the road where people and tribes and families (all of which are EXPANDING) meet at the crossroads of survival and economic interest. Most borders in the world are either a Mountain range which stopped easy invastion, or they are conflict ridden as members of different tribes compete for space,privilege and opportunity for their succeeding generations.

Australia and the 'West' are lagely insulated from these things because we already wiped out most of the 'competing' tribes, or sufficiently subjugated them into a non threat or unified our own tribes by force, but the conflict DOES continue in every part of the globe.

Humanism is 'quaint' but ineffective and philosophically untenable for the same reasons Communism is, 'human nature' or.. biblically put "We have all sinned(and continue to do so)".

Your Utopia will only ever be realized to the extent that individual hearts are renewed in Christ. I grant you that short term assistance undertaken by "Humanistically" inspired aid groups will make a difference, but not to the root of the problem.