Jane,
I found the article too fluffy, too frivilous, too airy fairy something like a grown-up would write instead of getting into the real guts of child/parent relationships of what it is like to be an adolescent.
I did not like the last line. It seems to come down from on-high.
"Kids have always seemed determined to be contrary, at least to their parents"
The truth is the other way around Jane:
"Parents have always seemed determined to be contrary, at least to their kids."
And then the kids' parent write about it as if they know best when they don't.

Smashmouth:

Twenty-five years ago they spoke out and they broke out
Of recession and oppression and together they toked
And they folked out with guitars around a bonfire
Just singin' and clappin' man what the hell happened
Then some were spellbound some were hellbound, some they fell down
And some got back up and fought back 'gainst the melt down
And their kids were hippie chicks all hypocrites
Because fashion is smashin' the true meaning of it

... too true Jane.

My kids all turned out to be conservative. They take me for a greybeard loon. Hopefully their upbringing in "hippie" surroundings have left a vestige of adventure in their souls.

I go on playing Joni Mitchell and Crosby, Stills and Nash.

... it'll all be rediscovered by the grandkids.

Love

Well said. I agree with Chris on this one. I am the ageing groover and the kids have looked askance over the years at Mum jiggling (another word?) away to old tunes. I too, also hope that the influence of a parent who maintained the groove, will support the kids on their journey through a minefield of global marketing, where just hearing the music will be enough to fill their hearts and minds. This also raises the question, when will us babyboomers stop saying - when I grow up I will........

Give me Cat Stevens and Pink Floyd over Justin Timberlake and Coldplay any day.

Although there is something about Eminem. He's a poet at heart and just does it better than every other rapper.

t.u.s

Before I saw what GlenWriter wrote I was thinking this article is all “fairyfloss” – sugary stuff lacking in substance.

As it is I will simply agree with Glen –

Part of the “human development process” is for children to test the standards of their most important people around them – in a family context, their parents. I did it with mine and my daughters did it with me.

The problem children of the current generation face is with the ones who suffer from having parents without standards. Parents who think it is “cool” to indulge their children’s every whim.

I recall one fellow I knew who summed himself up – he was from the last generation to follow the orders of their parents and the first generation to follow the orders of their children. I hasten to add, whilst of his age group, my standards were less compliant and, according to my daughters, a good job for them they had real boundaries to challenge.

As for the capitalism – it sure beats the leftie, "we-are-all-one" rubbish the socialists spew up – the great thing about socialists – they are the natural party of opposition. -

That way they get to oppose everything on moral grounds and can sleep peacefully at night secure in the fact that they are responsible for nothing.

Col Rouge(sic)

It is very hard growing up hungry and not to have the tendecies to care about your fellow humans as you grow older..i can only hope your comments are to draw ire..I guess you may feel elitist..I feel sorry for you.......DAVE B......

My generation teethed on Jazz of the 30's & 40's and the added bonus of a visiting string Quartet to our Taringa State Primary School that introduced us to an enjoyable dose of light classical.
A pianist mother who played the greats of tin pan alley like Fats Waller,with a thumping stride style entertained our family in the before T.V. era with sing alongs around the piano.
The big band music of The Dorsey brothers, Glenn Miller, Benny Goodman, Woody Herman, Duke Ellington,Louis Armstrong,carried me through my teenage Ballroom dancing years with an appreciation of music that has developed to appreciate a wide variety of music up until the mid 60's when I switched off..head banging,Punk and rock.
My response has been to introduce them to Tommy Emmanuel, James Morrison, Birelli Legrande,Django Rheinhard, Bob Barnard, Graeme Bell,My kids have a liking for the music of their era and look like needing hearing aids in later years but they have been exposed to some really great music of my era which in my observation has overcome the tensions between the generations. They have grown without becoming vandals or social misfits, they didn't join gangs or engage in socially unacceptable behaviour. They are not racist or bigots and they are not on the dole. What more can I say.....I'm proud of them. I think they are decent human beings, an asset to society.

Certainly our kids now seem more frivolous and apparently freedom loving, but apparently not all as shown by the Sydney ruckus over the weekend.

Furthemore it could said that too many of our online sessions seem to be involved with people sniping at one another, something that would not be tolerated in any university discussion.

The problem is that with too much sniping, though somewhat entertaining, we never seem to get to the real core of the terrorist problem, which of course, is simply a people problem. All wars through history, have been caused by people problems, as we know from the Crusades as indeed, we are having one now at it from both sides.

What can be said also that the difference between a university Humanities lecture and our Online talkbacks is that in the Humanities there is the effort, though not always successful, to use reason, part of which is at least a try to believe in the need these days to discuss sharing the blame for terrorism, as recommended by Nelson Mandela, and also incidently by the recently deceased Catholic Pope. Nearly all good Humanities-based history books have sections devoted to blame-sharing, and one believes if it was taught more in high and primary schools it might be a far more friendly world. .

It was so enlightening despite the unfortunate Sydney ruckus over the weekend to note certain groups of young people, both migrant Muslims and Aussies very much ready to get together and admit that both sides are more than a bit wrong. All one can say, the more of such on our online sessions the better, and even if it went worldwide very much the better. We could ask all Christians and Muslims to pray for it, as well as unbelievers to wish for it, otherwise our great great grandkids on both sides will be cursing us for our lack of wisdom and understanding, or in outback Aussie terms, just plain commonsense.

Col ROUGE, - what an empty head you are, I feel sorry for your daughters, if only they had somone who could nututre them, encoursge them, and spur them on to gteater heightes. I have a six year oldewho is reading level Grade 4, because of ecoursgement from her teacher, and parents, you strike me as being one of those old time conservative parents who don't provide the encouragement, for your daughters to do well. I may be wrong, however everythging seems to me as though you don't realy know how to br a loving, supportivr parent. This I find very sad. Not only fot you, but espially your fauourite daughters, I would be weilling to give them the support bthey deserve. Please Just let me know, it would be a pleasure to introduce your girls, to the real world, an expeirence you cannot provide.

SHONGA,
What planet are you from?
The real world is about drugs, legal and illegal, and getting "p*ssed" and bashing someone before they bash you.
Have you read today's headlines.
The real world is about money and greed and that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
Christmas is about buying the biggest present . . . or it's about parents lighting up their house with Christmas lights for all the street to see while their kids don't get what they want because their parents have to pay the electricity bill.
Today's world is that the kids of the families with the most money go to university even if they are as dumb as a door post while the poorer kids go to TAFE to be "lolly-pop" people on the roads.
All what I am describing is what adults made the world what it is for kids and themselves.
Power and money is what families are about. To give presents is about power and money.
Christmas is about power and money.
Having kids is about power and money because when you have a kid you get money from the government.
School is about teaching kids what adults want them to learn so they can get a job at McDonalds, not what kids want to learn.
I hope I have educated you a bit about the life in Australia for kids, while parents work around the clock to buy worthwhile things like a bigger TV or a second garage for a second or third or fourth car to pollute the streets.

Shonga – “Col ROUGE, - what an empty head you are, I feel sorry for your daughters,”

Oh don’t do that – my daughters “value” (as well as “love”) me as their father and say and demonstrate so in lots of ways. I also taught them that simply “feeling sorry” is worthless.
If one is sincere about “feeling sorry”, one does something – the feeling, by itself, is an internal experience which matters not one iota to the rest of the world, only to the self-centred dullards who enjoy revelling in self-pity – So, I guess you can claim to “feel sorry” about lots of things.

As for you having a 6 year old – that was a surprise for me – from your posts I was quite sure you were barely past puberty and of an age to be developmentally incapable of parenting.

As for the “real world” both my daughters live in their own homes and work in jobs and careers they found for themselves. From me they get

1 The belief that they are capable of doing anything they want
2 The understanding that they are, first and foremost, individuals with the right to decide their lives for themselves.
2 Absolute and unconditional (I repeat “Unconditional”) Love.

The elder is in the process of buying her second property (the first will then be retained as an investment property - which is not bad for a 25 year old who has done it without parental financial contributions).

No fairy floss ideas of socialist piddling or manipulation exists where they “live” – just as I demonstrated to them – don’t believe the w*nkers who preach socialist doctrines – they are just snake-oil salesmen peddling a different panacea.

So, Shonga, keep your feelings of sorrow for yourself – and be assured – you neither deserve nor will get any sense of “Sorry” from me or my daughters.
We live in that “real world” where “acts of compassion” cannot be substituted with the emotional fluff and sentimental swill commonly referred to as “feeling sorry”.

Hey Jane

Yep you've got it right. Or 'right on'. In more ways than one. I too am proud of my kids. In their development, they've responded to that single element, more than to anything else I have seen. It is remarkable and after conversations with may Dad he says very similar things.
But... he reckons I'm more conservative than him and I reckon my kids are more conservative than me. Which means, if the trend continues, somewhere in my descendants, there might be lurking a Ghengis Khan. :-)
The bit about us having more control because of mobile phones, well that works in the reverse too. My greastest fear as a teen was my parents intruding on my 'scene'. My kids don't have that fear. My and their mobiles make sure they know exactly where I am ... most of the time.

Try Jack Johnson...my son's only (Worthwhile) contribution to my music experience.

Regards

Keith,
So you are in the pub moist of the time. It used to be only fathers but now it is the mothers as well. The kids have to text their parents to get them to come home.
Some pubs are building 'family' restaurants so all the family can get drunk together instead of being at home.
At home you don't have to drink but when at a pub, it is expected that the kids will drink up, to keep up with their parents.
The mums get tipsy first and it is great to drive all over the road tipsy on the way home.
Just who do you think kids learn to take drugs from, their parents.

No Glen

I have two business and help my daughter in hers. I am working to pay my son's Uni fees. (The Voluntary Unionism is a godsend and will save me $500 a year).

My businesses sometimes drive me to drink. But I can only really drink Whiskey. I have the odd 'Black Bush'. It's expensive so I can't have too much of that... sadly.

Neither of my kids drink or take drugs. Both work bloody hard.

Both can cook and our kitchen table is and has been home to many vibrant exchanges of views. My daughter has only once been inside a hotel. And that resulted in great hilarity. My son is very private and I don't know much of his experiences.

My kids could have found religion, lived off others and desired few of life's luxuries. They had the choice of living with me or their mother, who's chosen path was and is exactly that.

They chose the more difficult option and both have great self discipline and high self esteem.

I think I'm lucky because I had great pride in my kids and they responded to that. Now they seem to take their decisions in life quite seriously and little just seems 'to happen' for them.

I doubt any grandkids, if I am lucky enough to have some, will drink in pubs. But I am sure they will inherit grand senses of humour, fun and positivity. Just as I inherited those things from my parents and grandparents.

What will yours inherit? A proclivity to spell badly?

Keith

ps what made you think I was a woman?

I have just finished 4 years of study with no financial help from my single mother at all. I worked part time, have defered all of my HECS and battled with centrelink. It really isnt that hard. Perhaps some rich people get into uni at the expense of poorer ones, but that is full fee paying places that subsidise my HECS. The difference between TAFE and UNI is natural ability and prefered career path. Your parents can be millionares but if you cant add, then nothing will save you.
I also think you would find a definate cultural difference between people who listen to Zepplin because they like the music and those that download it to show off to their friends. In the end it matters very little, if a person chose their music due as a reaction to their parents, rather than due to the music itself, they have some serious identity problems as it is.

The differences & similarities between parent & sibling during the ‘teenage’ years is very much a reflection of the prevailing social conditions at that point in time.
The materialism displayed by today’s youth is not at all a surprise. The major influence on growing-minds is the media, hopefully balanced by correct parental advice & an education system that moulds in the correct human values. The problem is that quite often ‘correct’ social values are left out of our children’s makeup. Proper social education is certainly not guaranteed through our current school curriculum. This aspect has risen to prominence with the presentation of ‘Intelligent design’ for possible inclusion. There is a ‘vacuum’ within our education system needing to be filled by….?
It is a failure of the western peace movement that we parents ‘from the 60’s & 70’s’ today have largely ignored the true message of that era – that a headlong rush into capitalist materialism needs to be offset with human values, such as those offered by eastern culture & religion. It was a major fault of the 60’s peace movement that organised ‘structure’ was seen as a capitalist tool. It was a fault that drugs were accepted so freely. It was a fault that no collective plan was laid to allow for the evolution of ideas & their injection into mainstream capitalist society.
Some organisations from the 60’s have survived, Western & otherwise. It’s up to the parent to direct their child’s attention to organisations such as Green peace. To educate, impartially, about the various religions. To impress tolerance, non-discrimination & non-violence as the correct pathway.

For a start, try this survivor-

http://www.humanisten.ch/hi/front/index.php?lang=en

http://www.humanistparty.org.uk/links.htm

http://www.humanistmovement.org/

http://www.peacebound.com/

Shonga, I'm sure you are very proud of your kid who can read at a grade 4 level, but can you please take the time to write at better than a grade 4 level.

Instead of berating Col for his effort with his daughters, how about taking a bit more effort with your typing so at least your vitriol makes sense.

Col - much sense in what you say. Kids don't need their parents to be a best friend, they will find plenty of them in life. What they need is someone they respect, they can learn from and can guide them in the right direction and offer advice in difficult times. And discipline, although too many parents these days are afraid to use it.
Rules and boundaries are the domains of authority figures - not hippy, friendly, too cool-for school parents.

t.u.s.

You who are on the road
Must have a code that you can live by
And so become yourself
Because the past is just a good-bye.

Teach your children well,
Their father's hell did slowly go by,
And feed them on your dreams
The one they pick, is the one you'll know by.

And you, of tender years,
Can't know the fears that your elders grew by,
And so please help them with your youth,
They seek the truth before they can die.

Teach your parents well,
Their children's hell will slowly go by,
And feed them on your dreams
The one they pick, is the one you'll know by.

Don't you ever ask them why,
If they told you, you will cry,
So just look at them and sigh
.....and know they love you.

t.u.s. you are right

The parent - child relationship is critically one of the parent being the "rock" in the childs formative years. Being a "rock" provides the foundation for sound social development as well as the "rock" to bang against as children rebel through adolescence.

As a parent, you only know if you were a "success" by the way children turn out. Since both my girls are focused in their lives, energetic in what they do, have warm personalities, work for what they have and don't whine for what they have not, I am claiming "success".

Finally, I must agree, as "children" they needed me as a "parent", not as a "friend" but as "adults", they have now chosen me as a friend too.

Frenzal Rhomb lyrics.
“Mum Changed the Locks
Returning home, I took look forward to the thrill
Of another lecture or another pointless drill.
Ascend the front steps dreading further war
Why the f*ck is my key not fitting in the door?
I guess I’m not wanted I wonder what I’ll do
I’ve already banned from my friends house too.
I wonder what I did to make my mum so mad
No perfect homelife but the only one I had.
Oh my god, mum changed the locks.
Now I’ve fot my freedom but no place to go
No prospects or money to go to a show
I haven’t got on well with my mum all year
Can’t use the phone to call my friends for a beer.”

TISM words”
De Rigueurmortis – Album (2001)


“There is another suburb with a warm and scented air.
The families all prosper who take the turn-off there.
The fathers at the bread shop in their track-suits in a line
Order for their families, Sunday, breakfast time.
If parents see a reason and they will lose with grace.
Adolescents help at home, in this other place.
My parents missed that turn-off, took this town’s exit ramp.
I’ll go down the shops tonight and break the last street lamp.
(Sound of breaking glass)”
GlenWriter is that cold and hard enough for you.
Jane Caro: good luck to you with your warm and fluffy relationship. A blessing. Savour it - live it to the fullest.
I have four childdren. One died at 6 months (from gestation). Oldest is a Research Scientist who was one of the youngest PHD's in Australia. Middle one is an artist (BA) and is winning her war with clinical depression and our youngest is an undergrade (made the Deans's list last semester 3 HD's).
Two have been around the world while the other has been to hell and back. However, that all fades into the background - what matters is that they are nice and are kind to their fellows and try to understand the circumstances that see others fall behind. (Caring).

Col, I can't speak from the parent angle of being friends with my kids (they're not quite grown up yet), but I can see it with my relationship with my parents, especially my dad.

There were times when I was younger I would think my old man was being a bit tough, but realise now it was for my own good. He certainly wasn't my friend when I was 13, but now I like nothing more than sitting out the back of his house having a beer with him.

t.u.s.

tus – yes the Dad role is the “tough guy” in comparison to the Mum’s role. Traditionally, we have been the first link in showing our kids the world outside of the home, hence a tougher demeanour becomes the norm but is no less loving.

My eldest thanked me for being relatively strict when she was young – even suggested she probably deserved it. When telling her she could not do something I always tried to add a reason for the negative, instead of just saying “no”.

You have something wonderful to look forward to with your children when they are older and will experience the feelings your Dad presently has when he is sat with you. Our children, by growing into adults and finding their role in the world help validate why we lived in the first place.

I wish you every Enjoyment!

Stockholm syndrome?