I sympathise completely with Salam’s sentiments especially with her observation of Howard’s “everything is fine” attitude in the face of obvious racism. I would like to make one comment. Love of country can mean anything we want it to. Far from being a ground for right behaviour it has always been usurped for the basis of ends as we saw in Germany in the first and second world wars. Beware of all flag waving patriots they will use nationalism for the basis of ends. We know we are in trouble when the only ethical basis we have is something called “the Australian way”. Howard may believe in it but the rest of us must quit this nationalistic sentimentality and look for a more solid basis for our lives.

"Surely young Australians, who claim they don't believe in violence or gangs"

I haven't heard any young Australians claiming this. I've heard plenty of politicians, media and police saying it though.

Australians certainly do believe in violence if they think it's warranted. We have fought in every major war since the Boer war, even though only 1 of them came close to approaching our home soil.

The Eureka riots are a treasured part of our national history. Violent gangs have been present throughout Australia's history. Perhaps you've heard of Ned Kelly.

Not everyone thinks that responding to violence with retaliatory violence is "unacceptable". Indeed in some cases it's the only thing that works. Some people just don't understand anything else.

Do you really think that anything "Islamic leaders" can say or do will stop young Lebanese males from marauding the streets looking for fights? People in Cronulla obviously don't, and nor does anyone else if they are honest with themselves.

The difference between those who went to Cronulla on Sunday and those who are deploring them now in the media is that the ones doing the deploring have shown over the last 5-10 years that they are quite happy for the ethnic gang situation to continue as normal, as long as it doesn't personally affect them. The people of Cronulla have no choice to avoid it like the wealthy elites who look down on them do.

"I am Lebanese and I know what these young Lebanese boys are capable of and how they behave in public. For years I have travelled on public transport and gone to venues where these types of groups have been loud, rude and obnoxious and it disgusts me to think they are part of my cultural heritage."

So why are you only saying it now?

The fact that you only see racism towards "your community" is an indication of the xenophobia that so many Australians are sick and tired of, which emanates from the "middle-eastern" community.

I feel very, very sorry for those in this community who don't act in the racist manner that many of the young males do, although it's your DUTY to speak out about it, instead of just defending "your kind".

WHAT HAPPENNED AT CRONULLA WAS A REACTION TO ANGLOPHOBIA, and it's been going on for years, although, your leaders, like yourself, can't see through your own racism.

Australians have never acted like this, ethnic soccer riots is as worse as it's got, although they were Europeans, who have fit in well. The middle-eastern community however(as well as SE Asian youth) commonly form packs, target Anglo-saxons for both sexual harrassment and racial violence, regularly. Police reports collected over the years show 1000's of such events.

The PROOF of your racism is that this is the FIRST TIME white Australians have ever made a scene, yet all you see is this one instance. The locals fury, however, comes out of legitimate anger at a RACISM that isn't acknowledged.

Australians tolerate the intolerant. We have legislation protecting minorities, unlike all the places where middle-eastern people come from, which are notoriously known for ethnic violence, religious violence, RACIAL HATRED.

Zreika asks "What is the Australian Way?" It's the reasons you came here. The openess, tolerance, how you can walk down the street and not be killed because your Persian & not Arab.

Muslims are rampaging through our streets, threatening women, after bashing them, with gang rape, smashing cars, stabbing white men. Welcome to true Arab culture! The multiculturalists must be happy!

Australian culture is what holds it all together Zreika, you all came here because we aren't known to be racist, violent, ethnocentric like where you all left.

I also disagree with John Howard, we do have an underlying racism here, from ethnocentric minorities who self-alienate by having Muslim women only swimming lessons, for example.

The hysteria Muslims have in their reactions (eg, the wife of one of the terrorists recently raided, who said she is now a racist, and the reaction to the anti-terror laws generally) can only be indicative of this underlying racism, xenophobia, self imposed alienation by a paranoid disposition (Anglo's are in the minority in Sydney).

Zreika feels threatened she says, although whenever a Muslim issue erupts, it is churches, not mosques, that get burnt, as one has been today, and the day after the London attacks, by Muslims who supported Bin Laden. It's western women who are being targeted by Muslims who are threatening to gang-rape them, who should feel scared. After all, it has happened scores of times, not only here either, in Europe.

This brings up another point Zreika. Why is it ALWAYS Muslim youth? Why? In France, UK, Denmark, Belgium, Norway, the same problems are seen. Oh, we are all racists right? Ours are the only nations that tolerate others? Look at Iran or Saudi? Or any Islamic nation apart from Turkey? Your trying to say that a group of people coming from nations known for their violent tribalism, religious violence, are the victims from their western hosts who have had generations of education on tolerance, from school curiculum to media to music industry, ect? Are you serious?

Your community needs to get rid of it's bigoted leaders, yet you do nothing. The radicals aren't radical you say, you apologise for terrorism, it is outrageous. What are we supposed to think when leaders like Hilali make outrageous comments about western values or that the jihad in Iraq is good, yet no Muslim protests for him to step down.

Wake up Zreika, ANGLOPHOBIA in your communities is RIFE. Those at Cronulla boiled over with frustration at how you don't even acknowledge this.

In the words of one young rioter on Sunday 'we have had enough'. Surely this shows that what happened wasn't spur of the moment or based solely on the bashings of those two life guards, but rather on years of simmering tensions.
What is amazing is that all of the sudden it is John Howards fault, the war on terrorism's fault and the local community at Cronulla's fault. Very indicative of the wider Lebanese community's tendency to blame everyone else but themselves!
This problem has been building for a long time. I can walk through Newtown, Cabramatta, St Kilda etc without being racially abused (I am a Caucasian). Yet in one trip to Liverpool I copped it left right and centre. However Lebanese leaders claim this is not a lebanese problem.
They are right in a sense-it is now an Australian problem.
The naivity of multiculturalism has led to a situation where those minorities in the Lebanese community feel free to express their contempt for the ANZACS on 60 minutes and disdain for women in bikinis on Cronulla's beaches-free from rebuke because there own community is too afraid to condemn and the wider community doesn't want to be called racist-not good enough and most certainly 'Un-Australian'

Part I

Zreika has showed us yet again just why this ethnic problem of middle easterners, mostly muslims, will not be able to be dealt with rationally as the muslim community continues to deny that it has a severe problem with being racist, raising their children to hate and disrespect police and all other cultures, especially whites, left over(they think, but it is really just a madness internal to their particular culture)from colonialism probably.
The fact that she speaks to a well known homophobe, bigot, racist such as Keysar Trad(check UWS 2002 & GreenLeftWeekly) continues, again, to tell the rest of us that the muslim community doesn't see bigotry and racism as something that is bad unless it is directed at them, this is what leads to the severe tribal violence in their original homelands.
Also today, a youth worker in lakemba, Fadi Rahman, rather than call for calm and actually admit that their is a problem with middle-eastern gang violence and intimidation, all he could say is that the Leb kids have a right to feel mistreated because somehow he and they think that the police treated them harder than the whites on Sunday. How? I saw police smashing white men with battens, I have never heard of police retreating to the police station for their own safety like often happens when they confront gangs of lebanese cowards.
To even dare hint that Australia may be racist after Sunday is disgustingly stupid, as even though a few people were bashed, this was in retaliation for a sustained campaign of violence on Anglo-Saxons for decades now, not just in Cronulla, but also Fairfield, Liverpool, Bankstown etc where muslim thuggery is the norm, as well as Vietnamese violence and selling drugs to all our youth.

The author clearly mentioned that she and others in the community know that there are young troublemakers, and that her (Lebanese) community also has done a lot to try and kerb such attitudes among people.

I feel sorry that you were treat with contempt in Liverpool. As someone who lives in Auburn, and is white, I see that there are no problems generally with anyone. People walk around wearing whatever they like, drinking alcohol (which is actually a criminal offence to do in the street anyway) and there are many ethnicities here - they don't always get along - but I have never experienced anything as you say. The same for Lakemba or elsewhere that I have been. Auburn has a huge Christmas tree right at the entrance to the shopping centre, for example.

Cabramatta is also very busy most days with Arab/non-Arab Muslim's especially around the centre where all the shops are.

Why do you make it out to be solely a Lebanese issue and vindicate the 5000+ people who gathered to stomp on a few "middle-eastern looking" residents/non-residents in Cronulla on the weekend?

Youth/gang violence is exactly that - and needs to be dealt with. Organized crime is performed by most ethnic groups in Australia, just not reported upon in mainstream press. I hope the police and government can deal effectively with the wider issues and make it safe for all of us.

The easiest person to blame on this matter is Whites or Colored people for revolting. When it comes down to the hard line it is the Prime Ministers Fault who continues to deny his involvement with the riots.

The prime ministers "Multicultualism" has more privilages than its own people. Do you know they advertise our University places in China on posters/billboards?

Multicultualism is a great thing, but Jhon howard has crossed the line. Ever looked in Melbourne or maybe sydney these days or crossed the street. I bet you a thousand dollars you will see a family/group of asian/Middle eastern or Medditeranian decent living rich somtimes not knowing a word of english spending their converted Yen for exsample in a resturant entirely with Chinese language on the menu. Dont belive me, go to clayton and see for yourself.

There needs to be balance between all cultures. It seems Jhon howard is more interested in pocketing a few extra dollars and becomming a slave to an Asian Summit with radical left or right wing beliefs telling Our prime minister what to do with our country that benifits the rest of the world and not our own country.

Change is needed, The riots are a flashpoint in our history that immigration is in need of change for balance, or our very own boxer rebellion or Bloody sunday massacre will occur and perhaps in years to come a generation of revolutionaries.

An ugly incident in which Australians of Lebanese background allegedly assault two lifeguards. More ugly incidents where white Australians, many undoubtedly pissed out of their tiny brains, attack and hurt people of ‘Middle Eastern appearance’ who might or might not have been involved in the former incident.

Because of these two disgusting episodes, which will hopefully be dealt with in accordance with the law, Salam Zreika has “lost any perception of what it means to be an Australian”.

Hands up all those who have also lost their perceptions of ‘Australian –ness’ because of what has happened at Cronulla. There won’t be many, I suggest. It certainly hasn’t affected me or what it means to me to be Australian. I think Salam has something else on her mind.

Looking at her photograph and the way she is dressed, I doubt that Salam is serious about learning what it is to be Australian if she insists on covering herself and parading as a Muslim. It is not Australian to dress that way. It is not Australian, apart from clergymen and a few elderly nuns who still wear the old-fashioned habit; to wear clothing to advertise religions people don’t want to know about. It is not Australian to say, as she does, “I am Lebanese” and to have a go at young “Lebanese” boys and their behaviour. You are one or you are the other. Lebanese people live in Lebanon. English people live in England. Italians live in Italy and so on. Australians live in Australia, irrespective of ethnic origins.

Salam asks how she can get her message across when nobody will give here the time of the day. As long as she insists on wearing traditional Muslim attire – which nobody could possibly say is Australian – she will be as credible as someone wearing a chicken suit in a city mall.

Yeah, she has the right to wear what she wants. But part of being Australian is fitting in, getting on with life and keeping your cultural differences at home and your religion, if you have one, between yourself and God.

Salam

Ninety - nine percent of what you've said I agree with.

I understand the enormous control it has taken you to condemn the minority within your community who perpretrate violence.

I feel exactly the same way about the thugs and their cowardly display on Cronulla Beach on Sunday. That is not our way.

It is difficult in the face of all sorts of injustice, not to mention much of the bigoted and uninformed comment, to express those feelings. One does feel like just jumping in and adding to the furore.

Your calm is admirable.

Where we do disagree is on John Howard. No we are not underlying racist. Our acceptance of and at times the embracing of other peoples and culures is ample testament to that. As is our obvious concern shown to the indigenous peoples of this country.

We are tolerant and open-minded even to the extent of allowing a racist element to express it's voice within our communities.
Most of us reject that and teach our children the better values.

Your courageous comments, well that is truely Australian.

Part II

I grew up with all sorts of migrants and the lower class whites and aboriginese in a housing commission suburb near Fairfield/Cabramatta, and at the end of the day it is really just the Anglos' huge amount of tolerance that is the glue holding this multicultural society together. How many mixed marriages do you see that aren't involving atleast one white? Asians and Middle-Easterners are simply too racist and different in general, not all but most, to bve able to mix or even want to be our equals, they want to be our boss or nothing.
This mentality rears its ugliest head in the thugs on the streets in the poorer suburbs in southwestern Sydney, has done for nearly 20 years now with machete wielding, gun toting cowards that can only exist in packs like the dogs that they are.
Take a little look around the world :

Middle East = ethnic war, religious war, millions of low paid slave-type servants in the "royal-oil-gulf-states". Cristians have all but been extinct in every muslim nation, there is a gender apartheid that exists(And South Africa copt it all those years).

Asia = hundreds of millions of slaves that are right now building the Chinese empire, the whole place(asia) is rife with disgusting corruption.

The West = we demographically change by more than half our own population to multiple other ethnicities, we do this with open arms and loads of tolerance, we get kicked in the teeth by two ethnicities, namely the Middle eastern muslims and the Vietnamese, who establish our main crime, violent crime and heroin capitals even though they are clear minorities, jeez they must be awful people.

Ask yourself Zreika, if you even have the self-critical ability most westerners have and bother to read negative posts, how are Australans possibly racist? Are there police reports of generation after generation, gang after gang, of anglo-men who regulary shoot, stab, rape, murder, bash, and steal from the middle-eastern community or doeas this happen the other way around?

"To even dare hint that Australia may be racist after Sunday is disgustingly stupid, as even though a few people were bashed, this was in retaliation for a sustained campaign of violence on Anglo-Saxons for decades now, not just in Cronulla, but also Fairfield, Liverpool, Bankstown etc where muslim thuggery is the norm, as well as Vietnamese violence and selling drugs to all our youth. "

what a load of crap. how could a mob attacking people based on the colour of their skin be anything but racist.

there seems to be a huge amount of selective vision and hypocracy inherent in a number of these posts. in fact i find it very hard to distignuish between the primative tribal mentality, slogans and actions(in particular the targeting of people based on physical appearence) of BOTH groups in these events.
racism knows no racial boundaries, and i suggest that these groups actually have more in common with eachother than they do with the majority of australians of any background or religion.

"Salam Zreika asks why some Australians are..."

Why can't Salem ask why it is always Muslims, everywhere, that are in the middle of trouble? Why can't he ask why the word "terror" is so often preceded by the word "Islamic"? Why can't he ask the hard questions about his religion and his dear prophet? Why can't he ask about the verses proclaimimg hate and violence in the Quran and hadiths?

The fact is that Muslims have a problem and they are the only ones that can't see it. They are in denial.

The sad truth is that there is no hope that Muslims can live in peace in the long term with other cultures and societies. When the number of Muslims reaches a certain level (the point of no return) they will start their jihad. First it will be just demands, then a little crime, then more demands, then fights, then a riot, then murders, and then more riots and finally full-scale war. It will get ugly.

I wish I could believe otherwise. Yes there are good Muslims, but not enough to make a difference. Most of them are either indifferent and/or in denial, so the radicals will win, as they always do in Islamic societies. They, after all, practice the "pure" Islam and they have the Quran, the hadiths and especially the example of Mohammud on their side. All the moderates can do is make excuses and pretend this has nothing to do with Islam.

As we all know from Islamic writings (well, except for FH) Mohammud was a murderer, torturer, slaver and wife-beater - so what the "middleeastern" gangs have been doing so far has been very mild by Islamic standards.

It will get worse. I don't know how many times I have used that phrase on this forum, but it is the ways things are and will be. Worse yet, there is nothing we can do to change things.

No matter how nice Western societies are, no matter how accommodating, no matter how politically correct, it will not be enough for Muslims.

Kactuzkid aka Depressed!

Matt, totally agree %100 except you left out the fact, that one day Australians and the west is going to stand up for itself after being spat on and rediculed by its own rules. which will eventually create either Civil war, Revolution or another Cold/World war with the east.

Ive always wondered if the Pope would declare A crusade agaist Muslims again... because the candle is melting and if someone doesnt put out the fire, It will create fires in all nations.

Salam,

Agree with your article. Although we seem to drill down the wrong path too far too long. The issue is nothing more than law enforcement. The incident on the beach was nothing more than a couple of bastards who assaulted volunteer life savers. It should not matter Lebanese, chinese, Australian-ese, aborigin-ese…(apologies for overusing the term –ese).

As Benjamin pointed, Aussie way of like is about respect of minorities and other peoples rights and properties. I lived in the middle east for 29 years and seen bastards assaulting the fans of a competing soccer team. The un-Australian way is a behaviour portrayed by gangs (lebs, viet, whatever) who should be taken off the streets. The lowest I have seen of Middle Eastern behaviour was on the weekend by ordinary Australians in Cronulla and Brighton Le Sands on the weekend. This was no gangs but thousands of people fuelled by self interest groups and yellow media.
Few of my friends were assaulted (2nd generation greeks, an Italian and a latin American tourist who happened to be dark).

Its all about law enforcement and here is a good starting point:
http://smh.com.au/news/national/oneway-radio-plays-by-its-own-rules/2005/12/12/1134236005956.html

Don't we have a new law that criminalise people who incite violence against the society and minorities? How about using it?

In times when Australian Muslims volunteer hours educating Muslim youth, moderating forums and publishing blogs..Who is accountable for the T-shirts (featured on all international media) insulting Islam and its prophet? How exactly is it helping us making Australia a safer nation?

Agree Ash.

What has the author wearing a headscarf got to do with not "fitting in"? If Australia is multicultural, as everyone seems to claim it to be (in the press and the government) then she has just as much right to be proud of her ethnic heritage as anyone else - Aborigines, Sikh (wearing turbans and beards), Hindu (wearing sarong and having paint on their head), Jews (wearing yarmulke, having beards and waistcoats), Hare-Krishna's (shaving their heads and wearing robes), and the list goes on...

Plenty of Muslim girls don't wear the headscarf, nor are they inclined to. Plenty also wear it against their parents wishes because they want to practise what they believe their religion requires. Yet all of these people are stigmatized if we make it an "us versus them" situation instead of calling it for what it is: young yobbo thugs - of all persuasions - causing trouble on public beaches. Yes the Lebanese have a problem with angry young men, but so do plenty of other communities. Why focus on one to the detriment of the others?

Hannibal and Leigh can I just say your comments are disgusting-they make you absolutely no better or more Australian than the Lebanese gangs who terrorise society. You are terrorists yourselves.

I have always had my concerns that the marginilsation of One Nation would lead to far right groups heading under ground and the recruitment of moderates to extremist right elements. The weekend has merely proved that One Nation was not lucky to win 17% of primary votes but rather a legitimate outlet for the concerns of many Australians.

I for one despised Pauline Hanson's intellect and her party's lack of tangible sollutions. However the debate it created should not have been stifled by the idealist, naive and minority left who seem to be in denial that their policies have led to a racial crisis in the greatest nation in the world.

The rise of Middle Eastern or Lebanese crime gangs has been on the rise for many years. They have succesfully waged a war with Chinese and Vietnamese gangs who have retreated to their own neighbourhoods. The only gangs left are the beach gangs and the bikies. The bikies have moved into legitimate business so only the beach gangs are left.

Gangs like the Telopea Street Boys have been standing over pubs and clubs in Sydneys CBD for years and questions were raised in NSW Parliament in 2002.

The Bra Boys and Lexo Boys are no angels but they are defending thier turf. This has little to do with racism it has everything to do with Criminal Gangs. Senior police have warned about the growing threat of Middle Eastern Gangs for years but our politicians are too pathetic to do anything about it.

See what retired policeman Tim Preist had to say at
http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=581

Finally an author that appears to understand where the anger comes from.

Yes, there is enormous community based resentment against both the lebenese gangs, and their community leaders that use whatever means are to hand to avoid being forced to act to restrain (or be seen as trying to) the actions of these gangs.

Ordinary Australians feel that they are being victimised and terrorised, and do not feel that society is protecting them, therefore they are entitled to take the law into their own hands, in order to protect themselves (Read Locke '2nd treatise'; Hobes 'Leviathan'; re the social contract and the causes of the formation & dissolution of commonwealth).

The leaders of these communities must stop the obfuscation, and accept their responsibility for their failure to prevent the continued incitement of racial hate by their youth. They have finally reached the point, where ordinary Australians are saying no more (nb I do understand that not all the blame is on these communities - but not all the blame is on the surfies either, yes their behavior was redneck and rascist - you are surprised - WHY?).

To Australia's Muslim Community Leaders - Stop the violence, you are the only ones who can, to the NSW Government - address the cause of the violence - not the symptoms. This is no longer about the chance of losing marginal seats, this is about losing control of society. Unfairness in the approach, ie victimising 'white' Australians for their response to this - will NOT prevent its recurrence - it is time for an honest, genuine approach - to hard issues that will require hard answers.

Remember in the absence of strong (effective) central authority (ie. one that protects the individual citizen), the natural state of man is war, and life is 'solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.'

Ms Zreika is so typical in crying, "Why does everyone pick on poor little us?"
While you persist in being unAustralian you will never understand .
We Australians are tired of Muslims looking down their noses at us and critising our ways while carrying out the most horrible atrocities across the rest of the earth in the name of religion.
Face the world of Islam Salam and see it for what it is and the evil it unleashes on the innocent people in its path.
Then listen to the people here who have been assaulted, insulted and reviled by Muslim Lebanese and others in the name of the same religion.
Why are you all so blind and so deaf?

There is an episode of the Simpsons where young Bart is continually bullied by Nelson.

After putting up with weeks on end of being beaten and bloodied, without any protection from the school, he organises a band of victims to attack the bullies.

If patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, maybe vigilantism is the last refuge of the bullied.

(PS - why are the same apologists for freedom fighters (aka terrorists) who kill hundreds of innocent people not as understanding of Cronulla residents who bashed (but not killed) a handful of innocent bystanders. I guess one man's freedom fighter is another man's surfie rioter.)

t.u.s

Seems to me these riots are a reaction to a perceived threat and arise out of fear and insecurity. That so many people felt a need to act in such a manner is not something that can be passed off as plain redneckism. However this is not meant to be a justification because the acts of violence are an irrational and completely base way to deal with a perceived threat.
In my opinion, any calls for increased police presence and stricter law and order originate from this same underlying fear and insecurity and are neither a rational way to deal with the problem.
I'm afraid that the only solution i see is much easier to say than to bring about peacefully, and that is straight up, face to face, both-ways open communication between the opposing groups.

OOOO sneaky kym, under the carpet that one.
I do not know why you doubt me, I grew up with Aboriginals, we had a Girl live with us for 7 years, need not explain the circumstances, and it was not stolen, lets say abandoned. I served with them, they are just as we are, funny, hard working, but the Gough Whitlam and the Guilt tactic came, oo and so did diversity and Multidestructionalism.
I did not claim History was not free of some hiccups, but we have never had the blood baths and the murderous barbarity in other worldly destinations. Other than the romantic History exaggeration versions by some Authors of a Red cloth.
And for your fifties imports, you need to do a body count of , The Bore war, WW1, WW2, etc,etc,etc, That’s how many were lost in a small nation. To argue the benefits, I think not, the misery and the loss it cost then, and we live with it now, Life here did not start when you or I were borne , A great many hardships and lives lost to get us here, respect that and be grateful. And count the Aborigines that died in battle along side them. There were No Guilt divisions then.
You need to do a lot more home work on Islam, not the postmodern study. I assure you, you will change your mind, need not listen to any one else. Happy reading.
Start with Dr Mary Boyce, then progress to “ In search of Zarathustra”, excellent start. I expect answers, ha. Might be out of your Intellectual Software program , but try.(Humor attempt)

I dont understand... after the genocide used to displace the aborigines surely the British cant complain of a riot here and there... or can they? Please explain.

My god, wake up to yourselves people! So it's all the fault of the nasty muslims provoking the poor old Aussies? Even assuming Cronulla had problems with Lebanese crime gangs etc etc, how on earth does that justify a drunken mob attacking INNOCENT people? Can you not see how stupid that is? Lebanese gangs upset Anglo Australians, therefore it is acceptable to form a lynch mob and attack anyone who looks like they might be Lebanese, even if completely innocent? Do you have no empathy at all for the innocent victims? And no respect at all for the rule of law?

And how on earth do you think the violence will help? Do you reckon that will teach those Lebo's, they won't cause any trouble any more? Do you reckon the victims of the attacks and their friends and family now feel more trusting of Australian culture and likely to integrate? B.S, all it will do is lead to ongoing violence - an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, until we are all toothless and blind. Fan-bloody-tastic. I suggest you all try running your personal lives in the way you suggest we should run the county - if one of your friends upsets you, take it out on another friend (preferably one of the same race, it will send a message to the offender). Have a merry christmas.

Part of the problem is a cultural vision of space. Different cultures and subcultures feel that they have a right to more space thgan others.

Giving a non-racial example, people who live in the crowded eastern suburbs of Sydney get along with each other with minimal space. We accept living in each others' pockets, so to speak, and generally would not trade the vibrancy for a big back yard and physical space around us. Others require their quarter acre block or more, and will occupy the space in many ways.

On the beach or in other public spaces sometimes it is the same. Whereas some will not take up much space at all, others will expand the area that they occupy, including in a figurative way by the playing of loud music or with their own selfish egos, by abusing others around them.

Some, like Brazillians, seem to be unable to meet anywhere in a group without drums. Other individuals 'need' to spread their legs on buses and occupy two seats whilst paying for one.

I deeply resent any person or culture that wishes to impose on my space on a beach, which is broadly speaking the width of my towel and the equivalent width on either side. I think that most people who grew up in a beach culture would agree. This impinging on space can be physical, verbal, accoustic or olfactory. So if you cannot keep yourself to yourself, find your own piece of sand - there is lots of it in the Simpson desert. Take your music and your loud mobile telephone conversations elsewhere.

Learn to respect others' spaces, and they will respect you.

Please explain why more people aren't using the phrase "Please explain" more often in a political context.

I found the riots in Cronulla quite funny, actually. Multi-culti...yippeee...it seems the ones for it is the media and government (and the dreaded latte set).

Good 'ol Aussie is headed for the same path as every other basket case of a multicultural country. When will we ever learn...sigh

Hellothere,

Even if the violence does spiral, and the lebanese community continues to retaliate - with 15 year terms for rioting there will be hardly any lebanese muslim males un-incarcerated in the foreseeable future.

This will effectively mean that they have;

1.Earned the unending hatred and enimity of NSW Police.

2.Earned the unending hatred and enimity of NSW Citizens

3.Left their communities basically undefended and indefensible.

4.Left these undefended communities at the mercy of far-right rascist elements of our society, who will take revenge on women and children (nb. I don't like it, but it is their style).

5.The only protection that these communities will have is based upon the professionalism and good graces of NSW Police (ie.they are doomed).

6.With an overwhelming number of Lebanese in our prison system, they will inherit the difficulties faced by Indigenous Australians with rascist prison officers (ie.not all will leave prisons alive).

You know what? I think the Lebanese Muslim community, in the interest of self-preservation, has to stop this cycle of attacks. I don't care who is right or wrong, the majority of Australians are not in danger of annihilation if this continues - while the muslim minority most certainly is.

WAKE UP

PS I do not even think that the groups involved in provoking this descent into violence need do any more, the current spate of attacks on bystanders and property have stretched the tolerance of both the electorates and thus the government to breaking point.

Aaron... you are speaking almost as a prophet :) I'll slot you in between Isaiah and Jeremiah mate..

HELLOTHERE... well guess what.. UR RIGHT.. nothing done up till now justifies the senseless attacks on innocent people, whether by yobbo drunken anglo's or rabid Jihad warriors. BUT.. also guess what ?

If you have cultural, social and economic policies which IGNORE the seeds of these things, and allow them to build up and up and up and UP till breaking point... the result is what you witnessed on the weekend.

I don't think you need worry too much about it escalating too far. The aussies are far to drunk and high on pot, and without any serious strategy to make much impact. They also don't have a binding ethnic commonality coupled with a strong territorial centrality, so they will probably just rampage a bit here and there, and lose interest.

I could be wrong however, there might just be a few with a brain among them, who use military operational methods, of decoy and entrapment and ambush, Cronulla would be ideal for that with just 2 major entry/exit points.

I don't have much faith in the police though, after a mad rampage through Cronulla the police had a car full of Lebanese, and just 'let them go'..... my jaw dropped as I reflected on Iemma's words "We wont tolerate it"

It will get worse though. They will word up the majistrates to 'go easy' (just like in 94) because they don't want to lose the support of the Muslim population in the electorate. We will see 'suspended sentences' 'good behavior bonds' etc.. and the cycle will continue to who knows where. 15 yrs for rioting ? makes good public relations, but politics will override this I reckon.

wre

“Hannibal and Leigh can I just say your comments are disgusting-they make you absolutely no better or more Australian than the Lebanese gangs who terrorise society. You are terrorists yourselves.”

What on earth are you talking about, you moron? Your barely-literate gibberish has nothing to do with the subject. I’m a terrorist? Your are a boofhead who needs to get off whatever it is you’re smoking or drinking. Get back under your rock.

I whole heartedly disagree with several prefaces on which Benjamin's comments were based.

"Australians tolerate the intolerant...unlike all the places where middle-eastern people come from..." - It is talk like this that creates conscious and sub-conscious segregation in the minds of people - We need to see each other as Australians first and Muslims, Jews, Europeans etc. second.

As Australians, we can't afford to view our country as some heavenly sanctuary of freedom that we extend to other ethnics who then have a responsibility to wholly integrate. Such a view is patronising and unjusitifiable given that white Australia is an immigrant population as well.

Benjamin, you say: "the Australian Way...(is) the reason (Arabs) came here." - well it's not: Yes, Australia is a pluralist democracy, one that we should be proud of and promote to the world - but the Australian way is whatever the mix of cultures living in Australia constitutes at any given time - Right now, that means that Muslims, Asians and Europeans all have a stake in defining the 'Australian Way' as each other.

Your post patronises, condescends and irrationally stigmatises Arabs in a way that I guarantee you would be unable to defend academically.

It is not Muslims rampaging through YOUR streets and threatening YOUR women. It is people rampaging through streets threatening women etc. May be hard to believe, but it's not always Muslims mate (My sister was sexually harrassed by an Anglo-Australian) - open your eyes.

We need to stop thinking of people as 'our people' or 'their people.' - it's a guaranteed sustainer of segregation and racial inequality.

Muslims are just as Australian as we are and are here to shape "the Australian way," not simply to conform to it.

A country is nothing more than a product of the cultures that make it up, whatever they may be. The quicker you realise that Australia belongs to ALL Australians and not just to us and OUR PEOPLE, the happier you'll be.

I suggest everyone goes back to the first post in this thread by Sells. And then let’s extend his argument. Don’t define your identity by attachment to a flag, a culture, a colour, a type of clothing, a sporting team, a language, a religious denomination or any other label. In other words, don't become simply a member of a tribe.

Perhaps it is inescapable that we -- especially adolescents -- will tend to do these things to varying degrees. But we must do all we can to grow out of it. Let's rather construct the sort of socio-political environment in which the adolescent’s, or anyone else’s, predisposition to tribalism does not lead to destructive behaviour.

That doesn’t preclude us from loving our country, practising a religion, supporting a footy team or whatever. However such a preference should never become the basis for identity. The nation is not the ecosystem; the team is not the game; the religious denomination is not God.

Many of us understand this. It is the basis upon which we need to build our society. John Howard, Kym Beazley and other leaders: please consider deeply. You may then be able to help us crawl out of the mess of which the Sydney riots are a symptom. The first step you might take is to chuck the word "un-Australian" out of your vocabulary.

And at the same time the rest of us should be searching for individuals with deeper understanding and propel them into parliament.

Well Salam, I migrated to Australia about 30 years ago. I have never had a problem, neither have any of my friends. Perhaps its time to contemplate your naval and wonder why it is that hundreds of thousands of migrants have thrived in Australia, yet the Lebanese
Muslim community is having such a problem doing the same. Is it really Australia that is the problem, or something about your culture?

Thank you Yobbo.

Your comment that people in Cronulla were happy for ethnic gang violence to continue for ten years provided that it did not affect them personally was spot on.

Eight years ago I handed out "how to vote" cards for "Australians against Immigration" in Cronulla and our Party got a miserable 3% of the primary vote. The Party leader of the AAFI insisted on us wasting our time contesting seats where the numbers of crime prone and welfare dependent minorities was very low, on the presumption that this was where the votes were.

I suggested that we should contest seats in immigrant areas where racial tensions were already very high. But he claimed that "half the vote is already against you."

I gave up on that Party as a waste of time. I learned that Australians could not give a damn about immigration until the consequences affected them directly. We do not need to retaliate against Lebanese Moslem intimidation of Australians by engaging in riotous behaviour. All we need to do is to have the wit to learn from what has been happening in this country and overseas and vote accordingly.

How many of the rioters in Cronulla have bothered to vote for AAFI or One Nation is not known but one suspects that these Parties will do quite well in that electorate this time.

The riots are not a sign of a racist country I am happy to understand that it took a long time for most of these youths to react to insulting actions of a few.
Remember please it is a few on both sides who promote these actions.
But also understand Australians have for a very long time been treated in a racist fashion by a few who while execpting our freedoms are refuseing our laws and lifestyle.
Room exists in this debate for reality.

Salam Zreika thinks it's racism to defend the Australian way of life.

What is it when white girls are called filthy names by people of Middle Eastern appearence (Lebanese)?

That mob always bring out the racism card when they try to defend the anti social behaviour of people of Middle Eastern appearance(Lebanese).

There is not one person of Middle Eastern appearance(Lebanese) who swears allegiance to Australia. They love Lebanon and are only here to be on the dole or work in the building industry.

They holiday in Lebanon and return to my country praising their true country(Lebanon. Why don't they stay in Lebanon?

Does anyone really think people of Middle Eastern appearance (Lebanese) would defend Australia?

They only come out at night just like the cowards they are.

"Please Explain"
- Zenophobia, 'a fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers' Macquarie Dictionary.

Fear is the basis for racism. If someone looks different, speaks different, eats different or behaves different they are suspect. yet it is 'difference' that makes this world what it is. Every person, every culture has something to offer society.

What is everyone afraid of?

Why dont you look for someone different and say 'thank you' for enriching my life.

Dont be afaid!

"If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? "William Shakespeare"

Of course John Howard says Australia is not a racist country - that's due to the fact that he's the biggest racist of all. A lot of the hatred built up here between anglos and arabs is our government's decision to involve us in a war in Iraq where we have absolutely no right to be. How can you be at war with a country that identifies so much with its regligion and not build up hate against citizens of your own country of this religion? I absolutely loathe the practise of authorities in Australia labelling all behaviour not approved by the government as being "un Australian". I attended the peace rally against the war and was labelled "un Australian" and "anti American". I totally objected to "un Australian" but I certainly do not mind being labelled "anti Bush". At this rally muslim women with and without hijabs, muslim men and a cross section of Sydney society joined together to protest against an unjust war. John Howard scoffed at the weight of public opinion. If John Howard concentrated on solving some of the problems in our society instead of trying to strut the world stage with his dangerously idiotic mate Bush, perhaps we would be a more cohesive society.

FRIEDRICH, why are you unable to differentiate between a part of a group and the whole group? It appears that a number of young Australians of Lebanese origins have been behaving very badly around Sydney for some time. That does not mean that all Australians of Lebanese origin are disloyal to this country or have shown disrespect for our laws. No more than the existance of outlaw bikie gangs of largely Anglo's suggests that I am a thug who disobeys this countries laws. Simple concept.

I'm very keen to see the issue addressed honestly and openly, it appears that there are ethnic issues involved and attempts to hide that probably hinder us from dealing with the issues properly. I suspect a significant reason some want to cover up the ethnic issue is because of the kind of approach you take, the "if some are bad all must be bad" mentality is no better than the attitude of the gang thugs giving skippy's a hard time. They have probably copped and seen crap from intollerant types throughout their lives and have chosen to take it out on the broader community. A cycle that never ends while people are not willing to do things differently.

Lets jail or deport the ring leaders of the gangs and rioters and then work at fixing the underlying problems.

R0bert

I think the riots was a show of young people reclaiming their identity. The Australian Flag, the VB beer and the chants. For too long, ordinary white Australians are told how 'racist' they are irrespective of what they do and say. Somehow being a white Aussie is something to be ashamed of, but a member of an ethnic minority is something to be proud of.

The riots appeared to be a big 'f@*# you' to the morally superior, self deprecating intellectual types. Looks like a rejection of imposed multiculti ideals to me. Ideals of equality are bandied around to patronise a large chunk of the Australian society. Hmmm interesting times ahead.

Well Joanna.. you were really sucked in weren't u ?

Did it occur to you while you were demonstrating, that those 'Muslims' may have been 'sunni' ? How many of them were 'Shia' ?

I suspect that those who are against the war, might just be against the lost power they had over those they previously persecuted, (the Shia and the Kurds) and because the others are the 'wrong flavor' of Islam.

But, of course, even though they might have not had this motivation, they probably believed all the 'misinformation' about 'zionist plot' to blow up the Twin Towers...(Did you do a little survey ?)

I presume that by your protests,

-you prefer the 100s of 1000s killed by Sadaam ?
-you are a supporter of genocide and of genocidal maniacs ?
-You would prefer them in power, to democracy in Iraq ?
-You also support the 'JORDANIAN' Zarkawi and his carving off of heads. Or.. are u selective in who you describe as 'illegal invaders'
Jordanian invasion is ok, US invasion is 'bad'.

Please answer.

Joanna... I presume you missed the car load of Lebs who shouted at the camera they are going to F*CK our mothers, including yours ?

I guess you have never read Tim Priests account of the rise of Middle Eastern crime, and how it is DIFFERENT from all other crime groups in Sydney historically.

I guess you would describe the Lebanese shooting up of Lakemba Police station and the swarm of Lebanese who marauded into it, threatening police with rape of their wives and being killed as "White supremacist racism" ? (u might have to think about that one for a bit)

I presume also you missed the unrelenting racism against non Lebs on Cronulla going back quite a few years ?

In fact Joanna...I think you missed pretty much everything important in this whole debate. So, if you choose to comment again, please do some research.

davo,

Are you an 'ordinary' white australian? Define ordinary.

What is the 'identity' young people need to reclaim?

What does "self deprecating" mean ?

I arrived in this country by boat, does this make me different?

I like VB, I like Merlot, and I like a beaut Donar Kebab. I used to drive a HQ 1 ton ute (price of petrol killed that).

Am I ordinary?, no different!

I can see the matches between the Sharks and the Bulldogs having extra intensity next season. The NRL should be putting in a request for extra police and security now, lest things get out of hand.

t.u.s

Boaz David,

You always impress the forum (and humble me in particular) with how you can drive any article into “Islam bashing”. Even global warming is caused by us (we eat hot kebabs and substitute cold beer with hot tea and coffee…it must be us then!).

Before Christmas holidays, can I suggest a relaxing couch and a specialist (and I don’t mean Alan Jones).

Speaking of Alan Jones, did he break the new laws 'inciting violence against minorities" with this article?

http://smh.com.au/news/national/oneway-radio-plays-by-its-own-rules/2005/12/12/1134236005956.html

Interested in your opinion, you can be objective sometimes.

PS: please have a word with coach and ‘coach’ him a bit, I noticed he is a "Boaz wannabe"

Merry Christmas my brother in humanity and Jesus,

BOAZ_David haven't you missed the plot?

It makes as much sense for Australia to be involved in the middle east as it would for Australia to be involved in northern Ireland politics.

It appears that despite the excesses of the regime of Saddam Hussein that life for most Iraqi's has become immeasurably harder. The situation that Iraqi's now face isn't going to be solved while there are foreign occupation forces in their country.

Are the foreign occupation forces doing anything to solve the Sunni - Shia tensions?

Getting back to Cronulla - there appears to be a gap between the racial harmony sentiments of newspaper columnists, the [successful] election campaining of the government and the sentiments of the person in the street. Witness the popularity of "Fat Pizza", even South Yarra matrons know who Claudia McPherson is.

Leave Boaz David alone folks, he is entitled to his view.

This to me has F%$k all to do with religion.

It is about a group of smartasses that just happen to be of middle eastern decent, majority probably christian if they are Lebo.

I think it was too much Sunday, with Aussies carrying on like this, but this is the first time in living memory that the majority got angry, no wonder they were misguided and revved up on the day. Most have had enough, and who can blame them?

The revenge attacks and the pure dusgusting reprisals by these extreme middle eastern youths shows the demeaner of these people, who are quick to grab numbers of middle eastern brothers to help them in revenge., and hurt people in their own homes.

Imagine if Aussies went into lakemba smashing, bashing and threatening to rape(remembering that the Aussies were only there to protect their suburb, not invade anyone elses)middle eastern women. It shows that if they want to be clicky as a culture and detach themselves from Australians, they feel they are superior now that after being a persecuted race for so long they come here and are not, so they then only know how to persecute in return. In their own country, they damage their own people.

Why dont these youths hang outin Lakemba on the weekend and do what they do to their own locals? because Lakemba is crap, just like Beirut, and just like anywhere else they occupy. I am sorry, i never thought i would have a comment like that, but disprove me please someone for my own sanity.

I am not racist, but these smartasses are like a plague who are threatening our envied way of life.

Round them up and be tough for once.

Boaz,
I'll comment as often as I please. Who are you to tell me I can't? The website is called "Online Opinion", not "Online Boaz Propaganda".

Realist

Maybe they don't hang out in Lakemba because Lakemba's pretty light on for beaches. And Lakemba's not crap, as you so elegantly put it, because of the Lebanese. I'm quite old enough to remember the area when it had a mostly Anglo population, and it was crap then, too. I'm prepared to bet the ghettoisation caused by ridiculous housing prices is a source of resentment. When you can only afford to live somewhere crap, you might well feel resentful.

That said, I'd love to see all the combatants on both sides given a good kick. I would reserve stronger punishment for the ghouls who sit on the sidelines, urging violence. But somehow I don't think Alan Jones needs to worry.

veryself,

On Lakemba fair point. They are not foced to live thier though there are alternatives in the price bracket, and with Department of Housing.

I was trying to illustrate the point that it may have been crap before, but there were plenty of places 'crap before' as you put it that have been improved. Why not this one? It has nothing to do with socioeconomics, i will rattle off many areas that have undergone facelifts that are of low incomes.

Anyway, i dont want to elaborate any further on this, they invade other precincts and attempt to intimidate etc, i say drive around Lakemba or punchbowl with the same attitude, another Leb will knock you off your perch real quick. It is the stray dog mentality, intimidation and agression in packs against those who are weaker and vulnerable.

Why dont they get their smartassey attitude going at a rodeo or something. They would all be swimming back to lebanon.

Why do they want the fear and voience that is in their own country?

One thing I don't get.

Why is "Multiculturalism doesn't work" a racial slur?

Anyone?

PART 1
G'day all..
I've just read the original article and all the posts..
I was born on the northern beaches, spent a long time growing up out in the country, and since school, 13 years living mostly in Randwick, Bondi, and Coogee, and also in Marrickville, the inner city and Redfern. Also a couple of years in Perth. My last job was as a postie in Maroubra. I tend to get on with people from every walk of life.

I want to briefly mention that I have walked a lot of dark streets around sydney, and despite everything i hear, I have never felt threatened in any significant way. The only exception was one night about five or six years ago I had run out of fuel at a set of lights in Randwick, across from a pub and only 50m or less from the police station. There was two lanes so the traffic was able to go around me easily. One car pulled up behind me, though, and started honking and flashing it's lights. I got out to explain that I'd run out of fuel, please go around.. a stream of abuse came from the vehicle.. to cut a long story short, in a flash 4 big Lebanese fellas were almost upon me, threatening 'get back in your f.#kin car or we'll f.#kin kill you'.. I refused to do so, reckoning that being inside my car would be a more vulnerable position. I stood ready to block any blows, and ready to make a dash, and told them to calm down. Eventually they went back to their vehicle and sped off down towards coogee beach.

That experience didn't make me hate people from Lebanese or Middle Eastern backgrounds. I know and have heard of people living in the eastern suburbs who have been bashed by large numbers of 'Lebanese-Australian' fellas (always in a pack). A very common scenario starts with some minor altercation, followed by an rapid escalation when a group of friends and/or relatives arrives by car weilding weapons, contacted by mobile phone.

(cont'd)..
I know this happens but it doesn't make me hate people from Lebanese or Middle Eastern backgrounds. I know about all the other things that the gangs do.

And that's just it, people. It's gangs. Organised crime. Thankyou to the person who posted a link to former Police Detective Tim Priest's article. Everyone here should read it they haven't already. Here it is again:

http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=581

The organised crime gangs of Australians of Lebanese descent are THE problem that we are dealing with here. nothing else. keep your flag waving for the cricket. Australians whose families came from Lebanon and the Middle East love sport too, and going to the beach, like everyone else.

Salam here makes the important point that it's a problem linked heavily to the NSW police. They are experiencing extraordinary internal problems, caused by ridiculous restructuring from people at the top.

Again, it the organised crime gangs of Australians of Lebanese descent that has been inciting violence around Sydney for quite a while now. They are a very serious threat indeed, to people from every cultural background. They are highly mobile, heavily armed and highly organised. And far more openly aggressive than other organised crime groups. They are an immediate and pressing threat to everyone's safety. Not Australians of Lebanese or Middle Eastern descent. Organised criminal gangs. It's the same with 'terrorists' - they are criminals, not warriors. By declaring a 'War on Terror' (a bloody stupid name), you make these criminals feel like brave warriors. The gangs that have been harrassing people in the eastern suburbs and other areas are criminals. simple.

Forget about 'anti-immigration' - everyone in Australia is an immigrant. simple. my father emmigrated from england. he was an immigrant. one grandfather was an immigrant. he came from switzerland and built a house at palm beach.. everyone in australia is an immigrant or members of their family were at some stage.

The problem, again, is not immigration or racism but organised and violent criminal gangs. End of story.

Take it easy, and have a nice day..

To all

I listened to an extensive interview with Tim Priest (retired Senior NSW Detective) on 4BC Brisbane Radio today.

He was very clear that this is not primarily a racist and/or religious issue. He was adamant that it is a law and order issue in the main. He drew upon his experience in the force - particularly in the late 90s when Police People lost their powers as a result of the then Commissioner of Police, Peter Ryan, imported from Britain.

He talked about his knowledge and working with gangs of all types in Sydney. His 2003 book publication predicted the events of last week.

He said there was a time that the Vietnamese in Cabramatta and surrounds were to be feared. He said that his young officers were never equipped to deal with the violence of Lebanese youth.

He talked about how Police People had lost their powers due to Peter Ryan's reign. "The Softly Softly Approach" (my words - his connotation). He said that when Police lost their powers, they lost their ability to control violence.

He had very little to say about racism or religion - saying that these were not primary factors. He said that loss of Police power and Lebanese youth violent culture were primary factors.

He was crystal clear in saying that the problem is about Lebanese young males in gangs (whether Mulsim or Catholic) who are aggressive and violent - coming from a back ground of learned violence.

He pointed out that the same perceived problems did not exist with Vietnamese gangs - despite the drug problems.

He talked about the Lebanise Youth Underworld.

It was riveting listening. I doubt that he had a hidden agenda - I can hear it now, some of you are going to say he is trying to boost book sales.

He is extremely concerned about young Police People who are not adequately trained - and who in the main, are directed by Administrators, rather than pragmatic role models.

He reckons the situation will get much worse before it gets any better.

Kay

RObert I think we should start by deporting you. You'd be much happier back in Beirut. Tea towels , the works. How's the cedar tree tattoo over your pea heart.

Of the few muslims I've met or worked with, I haven't found one who was obnoxios. As a matter of fact, every last one of them was kind and gentle, at least until they were provoked beyond belief. As far as I'm concerned, they are people like everyone else.

Now to my questions:
1.) Have those who attacked the life-guards been apprehended yet?
2.) Have all of those who smashed cars and property - and terrorised people been apprehended yet?
3.) Have those who attacked Ambulance personnel and Police been apprehended yet?

Until these things are done, we can't expect things to go back to normal.

Justin

FRIEDRICH, interesting idea. I'm not sure that they would be to keen to accept me, no midle eastern heritage. The backgroud I know of is UK from several generations ago, I think all my great grandparents were born in this country. I don't know that we've ever had any muslims in the family. I'm not aware of any of us having tatoo's, cedar or otherwise. I use teatowels for drying dishes, holding hot things and flicking not as an item of attire.

On what basis would you deport me to Beirut?

Sticking up for innocents who have no part in the wrong doing, is that your idea of an offence against Australia.

Objecting to thugs who instead of camping on the steps of the NSW parliment until NSW has it's own Fitzgerald enquiry prefer to go out and beat up anybody with dark skin.

Once you've kicked out all the dark skinned people, all the pale skinned people who don't see things your way who goes next? What about you might those who are left decide is not OK?

The concept of a "fair go" is something that has been held dear in the Australian peoples perceptions about ourselves. Some might have reason to think we have done better at dreaming it than doing it but we try. Nothing about your posts suggests that you place any weight in the idea of a fair go. You'll happily see innocents suffer rather than have to stretch your brain to deal with any difficult concepts.

In what way are you any better than the gang thugs you despise so much?
Your hatred is just as mindless, your sense of truth and justice just as lacking.
What are the values of this country that you think are worth defending and in what possible manner do your values bear any relation to those of Australia which are so special?

R0bert

Replies to Friedrich and Robert:

Friedrich: I basically agree with your posting from 14 Dec 2005 5:55:05am - but what happened the same day at 6:49:03pm? Did you have one drink too many, or did you turn Neo Nazi? So what, if Robert is still a Pom, even after several generations? There is nothing wrong with seeing things the way they are. Remember, there is good and bad in all Nationalities - and that's all Robert pointed out.

Robert: if you read my posting from earlier on, you'll see, that I too have met only decent Muslims. This is not to say that we should put up with gangsters. Attacking Life Guards, smashing cars and Real Estate, terrorising people, threatening to rape girls, etc. is something I wouldn't put up with either. If some of these Lebanese want to declare war - let them. Then let's sort them out for good.
Try not to be too sensitive though, as that may get you into more hassles than you'll be able to handle.

What needs to happen, is that the cops should do what we pay them for - as outlined in my earlier posting.

Justin (that's just in case we need to sort some of them out)

Robert: I'm with you, but it seems that nothing we say will change the attitude of posters like Friedrich, Davo and their ilk. Because we advocate using a little reason without arrogance in the debate they just sneer labels at us. What is a "PC lefty" by the way? And Davo hurls the term "self-deprecating intellectuals" as a perjorative. I actually take it as a mild compliment, but there you are. They've added nothing at all useful to the discussion.

I'm descended from some of the first British colonists, but two of my children are of Asian and African lines and I live, socialise and work among thousands of people from just about every continent on earth. In all of them I find none of the brainless herd behaviour that we're seeing among the Sydney mobs -- including Friedrich, Davo and company. Our large community gets along without so-called "ethnic clashes". If we can do it, surely they can learn to do the same. I tried a reasonable approach in my earlier post but it has apparently led nowehere. Probably time to bow out.

F.H. thanx for the humorous post :)
I do try to be objective, but lately been working out a lot and the ol testosterone is rampaging through my body and sometimes I'm sure it effects the level of passion in my posts.

I expect the TOUGH talk by Iemma to be followed by "kid gloves" magistrates and slap on fingers punishments for the 'Lakemba' offenders. It was just good PR.

I read the Jones story, yes, he does cross the line a bit I'd say.
He also trivializes it with innappropriate jokes/jibes.

But you missed a MUCH more telling post here I think.. I won't say which one, but its wayyyyy more high impact than Jones stuff :)

As for Coach, be patient... let time and the still small voice work in his heart and mind (and in us all for that matter) He says good stuff, but in a kind of abrasive manner.. but I remember when I was hearing the gospel for the first time from a preacher in Riverstone.
Mannnn I hated his 'smooth and smug approach' as I saw it at the time.
But I distinctly remember that the issue was not 'him' but the Christ who he was trying to point to. If my faith ever relied on the qualities of the man who presented the gospel, then I would have departed long ago.

Hey, I can't quite see 'Muslim' bashing in my last post... it was more Leb Bashing, but not just for the sake of it.. to get a point to Joanna.
Ok..funny story time. 2night at gym, we were talking in the locker room about Sydney, and this guy walks in, kinda dark. I asked him 'what is your background'? and he said Dad Maori and mum ...mumble.. Then I said 'Well don't goto Cronulla, cos you look "Leb" :) and then I asked again.. umm ur mum is which ? he repied 'LEB' ... never mind.. all good natured and friendly.

and yes.. you also enjoy the season, but more the 'Reason' for the season :)

"We do not have ‘exclusion’ as a choice. Multiculturalism, for this nation, is inevitable..." writes Swilkie.
Why inevitable? Why don't we have a choice? Globalisation is a two way street. If the whole world was open and free maybe it would work.....but it isn't and it won't. ( 'peace' activists take note, for there to be no wars and utopia you need ALL religions/ideologies to be tolerant. Islam isn't tolerant of ANY non-Muslims).
Saudi Arabia confiscates and shreds ALL non-Muslim holy books and imprisons anyone caught practising their faith. Iran's Thug-in-chief Ahmadinejad says, "I will stop Christianity in this country" and a close aide to Iran's Supreme Leader, Khamenei said that non-Muslims "cannot be called human beings but are animals who roam the earth and engage in corruption." Persian Zoroastrians (the original inhabitants) are down to just 22,000.
Hindus, Jainists, Buddhists and Christians are being systematically persecuted, forced to convert to Islam, raped, murdered, jailed or executed for 'blasphemy' or apostacy in Pakistan, Iraq, Kashmir, Egypt, Indonesia, Malaysia, Nigeria, Sudan, 'Palestine' etc etc.
Europe is in big trouble, (see 'Eurabia', by historian, Bat Ye'or) with riots in France (still 60-70 cars torched a night - back to normal), riots in Denmark (over some cartoons of Mohammed), Belgium, Sweden (see Malmo) and the UK. Polititians/writers/press/clergy in Holland, Sweden, Denmark, UK, blah blah blah have to have security guards with them at all times because of death threats from Muslims.
Infidel Churches, Synagogues, schools, statues etc are being torched/destroyed in Europe, Balkans, Indonesia, Thailand, Pakistan, Africa etc etc. So why must Australia have to have Muslim immigrants (jihad by demography) and have it's culture radically changed by barbarians? WHY don't we have a choice, Swilkie? Why should we accept people whose 'holy' books REQUIRE our destruction? CONTINUED.

The riots in Cronulla are just a minor skirmish in the global war being waged against Infidels by Islam. Something is dreadfully wrong when the police bash Aussie 'racists' and do next to nothing to Muslim thugs smashing cars, bystanders, torching churches, shouting "I'm gonna f**k your mother" and "Allahu Akbar." Iemma - time to measure this man for a zunnar (dhimmi suit).
The media and our 'leaders' have acted shamefully through all this with pontificating commentators telling us that we're xenophobic, racist etc. These quislings/appeasment-weasels/would-be-dhimmis are trying to flush our civilization down the pan and must be made to answer for this on the day of reckoning that is rapidly approaching.
Don’t let them tell you “you must respect peoples beliefs”. Ask them whether they respect the beliefs of the Ku Klux Klan or nazi skinheads. Who said beliefs have to be respected? This is the most absurd statement that is often pushed by those whose beliefs cannot stand scrutiny (see Islamic spokesliars Keysar Trad, Salam Zreika, Irfan Yusef, Waleed Aly etc).
I have this strange aversion to seeing office workers get blown up when airplanes suddenly fly into the office wall, and to imagining my grandchildren stepping off the sidewalk with boweds head to let a Muslim pass.
Sir Winston Churchill, the British Prime Minister and Minister of Defense 1940-1945, summed up what he thought of Islam without fear of offending PC sensibilities:
“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property—Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith.” Hear that, Mr. Howard? Mr. Blair? Mr. Bush

Part I - Debunking MAXYJ

Maxy J's response to the arguments I put forward is an excellent example of how far removed from the reality of the current situation many people are.

Maxy J comments that "We need to stop thinking of people as 'our people' or 'their people.' - it's a guaranteed sustainer of segregation and racial inequality." I agree, and it is this that is the problem Maxy. But I hope you’re not a triage nurse! It isn’t white Australia that needs to hear your arguments, it’s those who abhor the notion of tolerating others.

When I mention Aussies, I don’t mean skin colour. I’m talking about a specific culture, way of life, of principles. North Western European cultures are the ONLY cultures on the planet that think along these lines, which is why, even though the demographics of such nations has altered tremendously during the past 40 years, and that many migrant enclaves are Australia’s crime capitals, drug capitals, there has never been a backlash against such communities.

Moreover, it is these communities that deliberately want to be known as “the other”. Muslim women only swimming lessons, for example, is an indication that we, the host society, are viewed as impure, to use a euphemism.

Such distinctions of “us & them” are found everywhere in the Islamic community, both politically and in everyday life, i.e, how Muslims refer to us as “kaffir”, and are taught that “kaffir” are “najis”, or unclean, impure.

This probably goes a ways to explaining why, in detention centres, as HREOC reported, that it was common for Muslim asylum seekers to physically attack “kaffir” because they didn’t want to eat at the same table, or use utensils that “kaffir” had used. The problem was so bad that non-Muslim asylum detainees had to be moved to other detention centres.

This “us & them” mentality is perhaps most evident with arranged marriages along ethnic lines, which is indicative of extreme xenophobia. Moreover, employment practises, whereby specific ethnic groups will only employ their own, are quite common in western Sydney.

Part II - Debunking MAXYJ

Lebanese gangs are a big problem too, as we saw with the angry people at Cronulla, who did go over the top with alcohol. I wonder what effect banning alcohol will have on the Muslim youth who bash people in packs of 20? These youth where shirts with slogans like “Leb Power” or “Leb’s Do It Better”, and so on, which shows your argument is flawed, they don't want to be Aussies MAZYJ.

The proof of us NOT being racist lies in how Australia has anti-discrimination legislation protecting minorities. In ALL the places such cultures come from have grossly racist policies towards outsiders. Many don’t have immigration programs, or even accept refugees, and in places like Saudi Arabia, foreign workers are hidden away in compounds, so as not to offend the population.

McDonalds restaurants gets blown up, as they can’t even stand any outside influence. All other religions than Islam are illegal in some Islamic countries, and the ones where Christianity is allowed, they are treated (in accordance with Islamic Law I might add) as second class citizens.

For example, in Pakistan the government are evicting hundreds of Christian families to make way for the homeless Muslims from the earthquake. Pakistani people don’t protest however. In Indonesia, their government won’t ban J.I, even though they are responsible for terrorism like Bali, because the Indonesian people would riot, such is the support. Abu Bakar Bashir gets regular visits in prison from politicians even.

DO YOU SEE THEIR RACISM YET?

Justin thanks for your comments. Not sure if I'm more distressed by Friedrick's desire to deport me to Beirut or the suggestion that I still think of myself as a pom :). My loyalties and love are for this county and this planet. I've been to the UK once and found some places in Scotland I'd like to do some walking in, that is about as far as my liking for the UK goes.

I'm very willing to see the actual thugs dealt with as harshly as our laws allow. Especially those thugs who have been terrorising innocents for years. If they have come here from elsewhere send them back, if they were born here lock them away (and don't give them access to gym gear - some are too big already). Yes their families might suffer, their choice if they stay or go but I object strongly to the dishonest claims that every single member of any ethnic group is guilty by reason of belonging to that ethnic group. Nothing fair or reasonable about that, rather the kind of sentements which lead to the excesses seen in Nazi Germany and other parts or the world at times. Views Australians have stood against and given their lives to defend against in other places and times.

R0bert

To Hellothere,

Ofcourse it is no good, bad, wrong etc. for those cronulla protesters to have attackted anyone at all. One needs to remember that this was originally a protest by fed up Australians of all colours who have had enough of being intimidated by gangs of Lebanese muslim cowards who have harrassed, bashed and sexually taunted the innocent for years now. And it is not just at the beaches, Bankstown, Fairfield, Liverpool etc. have all been taken over in this way.
These thugs are raised to have no respect for Australians or our society, they view kindness and tolerance-which is what all Australians have extended to them- as weaknesses that they choose to spit on. The problem is that they want to own wherever they are at the time, like animals, whether it be at a shopping mall, car dragging or at the beach, their tiny ethnocentric brains have to play the role of "Rambo".

So, again, Mr Hellothere, for years people who are genuinely angry and concerned about these gangs of racist Lebanese thugs, have been shouted down, humiliated and "1984-like" dubbed as racists. It is a political climate that does not want to confront ant problems that may or do exist in any ethnic community, and 95% of the media are silent also.

How does the average person deal with it then, when they are continually ignored and told to go away? How would it not get out of hand?

One thing is for sure, we are talking about the issue now. However, even after this madness, most politicians and journalists are still whimping out.

Spot on FRIEDRICK,

they are in this country to all have ten kids each, suck the dole, medicare and all of our charities away, and so that they can do what they want and not get killed by rival ethnicities and/or the police and army.

This is what makes me the most angry : the fact that they act tough to our kids, women and our police because they know that our culture is too civilised to just kill them or torture them. In Lebanon, they would be raped by the police while the government put all their family in prison and tortured them. This is why we are now starting to wind back our laws to the middle-ages, because we now have medieval cultures living amongst us.

What happens when you mix Dark and light? you get a shade of grey.
Thanks left-wing idiots, now the western world is going back to the dark ages rather than you get an upset gut by actually recognising ethnic racism.

No time to read all the comments right now posted. So i'll just make my comments repeated or not.

Howard wants to cover it up for appearances, but its been let go too long.

Now in Cronulla local have been abused for 10 years by middle eastern ppl. The are taking over all the local parks around the beaches, any Skippys that come through these parks that are ‘Taken over’ are abused and spat on. They drive around bashing ppl for years with 4 or 5 on one person. The lifesavers were the last straw. It was to be a peaceful protest. However others from outside the area changed that.

Most of the trouble maker were from outside the area, however a few locals were drawn into it. The arrests recently prove the main offenders were from outside.

For years they have got away with stuff and it was just getting worse.

It was a mistake to show force to the middle eastern trouble makers. They have a history of never giving up, and always giving back more than they get. Nothing is to extreme for them and what they believe in.

Personally I have a number of middle eastern friends, I find them very nice ppl. But sadly as %’s go overall they seem to have more trouble makers than any other race does.

Other gangs of any other race will mostly keep things between themselves, EG Italian gangs, and incident with be between rival gangs only, they have respect for those not involved. However for the middle eastern gangs any person is fair game, old young, innocent or otherwise. They have little respect for the innocent and this also shows overseas.

How much do ppl have to take when nothing changes. that is the problem which is covered up. to those that disagree try moving into a suburb which is mostly middle eastern and see how your treated. Go to gunnamatta bay park and see how your treated. now do that every week and see how you feel.

i am writing a film which contains the perspective of a lebanese woman who witnessed the cronulla riots. i would GREATLY APPRECIATE any stories or perspectives from people who were there or who have a heartfelt opinion about the issue. I am not lebanese, but i would like to write this story, and write it well - please be in touch if can help me get history straight. atovey@flics.org.au