It's bad enough to think of someone on the end of a rope but consider somewhere like the US of A where you can hang, be electrocuted, gassed, given a lethal injection,... is that enough from the greatest democracy the world has known?

The death penalty is an abomination and all good people must oppose it.

Like America, we might finds ourselves reintroducing capital punishment unless our judges start handing out jail terms that reflect the seriousness of crimes and their effect on victims and society.

We must not question the assumptions of Sir Ninian Stephen because judges exist in an ethereal world where entheomania forms a large part of that world. But just ask yourself this: when has a judge ever felt threatened or was ever faced with a dangerous situation? They have drivers to transport them to and from work. When they go to some function they are surrounded by a ring of blue uniforms to keep the canaille at arm's length. When on a plane they travel 1st class, a section of the plane not open to idiots and louts with their boorish behaviour, the Butlers of Tasmania notwithstanding.

When was the last time a judge caught the 11:32pm Central to Mt Druitt train on a Saturday night and then waited at the cab rank at 12:15am? And along for the ride on the train were his 17, 18, and 19-year-old daughters? When was the last time a judge had his car knocked off?

The belief was that judges and magistrates would hand out realistic sentences that would placate the general public and remove forever any talk of the death penalty. With just a few exceptions that hasn't happened. So Dr Bowden is right to remain circumspect regarding the view that Australians have totally rejected the death penalty.

Dr Bowden might like to tell us if any of the killers of Anita Cobby has an application in to join the priesthood or become a social worker or any other calling apart from a professional criminal. Maybe if 'harsh' sentences were handed out to those alleged humans when they were first brought to book they may have developed a healthy hatred of prison food.

The United States is not a good comparison to Australia when looking at crime and punishment. One major factor being the death penalty, of course.

The average length of time that a prisoner spends in time in jail, for murder, in the US is around seven years, and sometimes less. Even if the offender is sentenced to 20 years or more, with remissions and parole, and trying to clear overcrowded jails, he or she will generally do about seven years.

So the choice for a sentencing judge is really between seven years and the death penalty.

In many Australian states judges can, and do, impose 'rest of life' or 'life means life' sentences, for the worse categories or murder, and, at least in NSW, for the worse categories of sexual assault.

In NSW the 'average' sentence given for an 'ordinary' murder is around 24 to 25 years, with usually around 18 to serve in prison. The remainder is served on parole, under supervision, and is intended both for the protection of the community and also to enable an offender to re-enter society. Similar sentences are given out for major drug crimes, including 'rest of life'.

In general the public in Australia only hear of the most sensational crimes and trials, and the most contraversial sentences, those which are either, in some people's opinion, too high or too low. Unfortunately not enough people read what the Judges themselves have said in their 'remarks on sentence' to see exactly why a certain senetence has been passed.

Sage

Just because you haven't seen judges on the buses and trains doesn't mean they are not there. They don't exactly go around wearing their wigs and gowns in public, or carrying a sign saying "I'm a judge".

I know that of judges who catch public transport, who jog for exercise on public street and of judges who go out with their teenage children.

I know judges who have experienced personal tragedy due to the effects of crime and of mental illness in their family. I will respect their privacy by saying no more than that.

And no, I am not a lawyer.

Judges have been students and lawyers before becoming judges. Many worked their way through their law degrees the same way as other students have worked their way through university. Judges don't spring into the world fully formed wearing the robes and carrying law books under their arms. They have had long dealings with both the victims of crime, and with offenders.

I know of judges who, before entering law, have been school teachers or in other professions. They have all experienced life and its complexities. They experience the same vagaries of life as the rest of us, you may consider them to be detached from the community, and their duties require them to appear that way, but they are not detached. The person buying lunch next to you at the sandwich shop may even be a judge or a magistrate

Sorry Hamlet, but from what I've seen of the sentences handed out by most Judges and Magistrates, I am not at all impressed by their supposed intelligence. They fall over backwards to look after the rights of the accused, but ignore the rights of other citizens, including the victims and their families. They may lecture the convicted felon on what a terrible thing he/she has done, but then give them a slap with a feather. People are so frustrated that they feel like taking the law into their own hands. If they did, the sky would fall on them. Judges are failing to protect the community from predators.
As or the death penalty, I have a lot of trouble making up my mind, but have to come down on preserving life, even the lives of the the lowest. After all, a life sentence [which means "life" literally] in a crowded jail mixing with the scum of the earth with no hope of parole doesn't sound attractve to me. And that's what drug pushers, smugglers, murderers, paedophiles , rapists and terrorists should get.

I am not convinced that Sir Ninian has read the public sentiment correctly but equalliy I am not convinced Mr Bowden has either - I would hope Sir Ninian is on the money but what I hope for is realy of no consequence;

The curious thing I found with his piece were the quotes from JH and rather qualified rejection of the concept - he doesnt support capitol punishment "but know those who do" he then goes on to describe them as decent honest people - neither vengeful nor vindictive: Nothing wrong with that at all. But if you were an opponent, particularly in this climate I would have expected a more emphatic statement. But no JH left the door open in such a manner as to foster on going debate. I would have thought an opponent of the death penalty might have not wanted to do that. Sure have a debate if one arises but dont fuel the fire.

His rather wishy washy appraoch to some principles was demonstrated too over the sugestion the hajib be banned - the reason he rejected that notion was not because he endorsed the right of women to wear it - but he rejected it because, given the other forms of religious attire worn by jews, sikhs etc - the implementation of a ban would be too hard; no principle there. A ban would be just to hard.

Again his support of the death penalty for Saddam H exposes him as holding to a double standard on that subject as well- a bit like his core promise approach to so much of policy that impacts on our lives.

One gets the idea that it would not take too much to convince JH to bring back the rope, or ban the hajib if theclimate was right - after all it is good moral people who endorse it.

Sweeping statements such as, "ALL Australians are opposed to the death sentence!" interests me. When were ALL Australians asked?
Every person who has an axe to grind makes that statement , it is stupid and it is wrong.
Perhaps in more innocent days we were against taking life but now with horrendous crime following horrendous crime ,drug dealers growing rich on the bodies of our young dead, we are not as adamant against taking the life of those who kill so deliberately for profit or whatever reason suits that particular murderer.
I can see no reason for caging a person for the rest of his life. If he/she is going to be a threat to ordered society, far better to end that useless,dangerous threat. The money so saved could be used to educate and rehabilitate young people and give them a life worth living.

Mickijo, from what I can see, nobody in this forum, or in the orginal article ever said "ALL Australians are opposed to the death sentence!"

Yoo hoo. To the people who are running this debate site. We have now had three journalists submit anti death penalty articles to this site. Could we have some balance and get a journo. who endorses the death penalty?

If none exist, then this is proof to me that there is little cultural diversity in the Australian media.

Mr Bowden

Thank you for your article.

As a survivor of two bashers and rapists, I think that I am in a good position to make comment.

I do not believe in the death penalty, no matter what the crime.

I wanted my rapists to spend the remainder of their lives in prison - without any quality of life, so that they could reflect upon their actions. But our so-called "justice" system does not do that.

One of them got 200 hours community service because he had a built up shoe - claiming disability.

The other got 4 and 1/2 years after the DDP intervened.

The judge said he was sorry that he had made "an error of judgement" -based on data some 20 years earlier.

I wanted them to live in a prison for the remainder of their lives. They admitted that they had planned to go out that night and find a woman to rape.

I live with that every day of my life. I would not feel any better if they had been hanged.

I would have liked to go to the prison and confront the coward. That was not offered to me.

Regards
Kay

PS: Here's my ambivalence. Hang all proven paedophiles!

YES BRING BACK THE DEATH PENALTY.
Why should Australian Tax Payers pay for hardend and repeat crims to have a sustained life style for a crime against others. If there is absulity no dought of guilt then some crimes should have the D?P set against them. No all crimes but some..Like pedifelia, murder, agruvated assult causing death, and alike. the crims and offenders have no fear of the judicial system any more. So until there is somthing to fear then the system supports the offender and not the victum. But you will need Judges to have the balls to make sutch a decision. Not many of the do, as they all are used to there comfortable life style and dont want to rock the boat. If they want someone to flick the switch or pull the lever then I am sure there will be no shortage of victums families who will put there hand up. Yes drug trafficers should be put on the list as well.

Ah redneck, at the very least, we can say that you are consistent, the reason that 3 jurno's are against the death penality is because most people are, you have found yourself in a tiny minority again, most of us don't like killing people, or the State doing it for us. Some of us actually believe that is crimes where it is possible, that prisioners be rehabilitated, so that when their punishment has ended they can become productive members of society, and make a contribution, the bible tells us "thou shall not kill" and as a general rule, whether you are a Christian or not, the 10 commandments are a worthy set of rules to try to live by. Judges have "all" the facts in front of them when making a descion, we read the vertict in the newspaper, or see it on TV we are not made aware of the circumstances, only the vertict. Sometimes I also resent what seems like lenient sentences, however not being privy to the content of the trial, I accept the vertict, and take it up with my local member of parliament. Something I suggest all posters do, if they are concerned enough to do so.

Shonga,
Not that redneck needs help, but thou shell not kill... What crap is that. Tell it to the crims that do, if for fun, thrills or out of anger. They still kill. What ever happened to an eye for an eye..
I dont think most folks are for the d/p just for the revenge side, but an eye for an eye. maybe let the victums and the reletives of victums decide the punishment. i know myself if some P..ck took the life or innocence of a loved one of mine I would want the punishment to fit the crime at the least.

I am totally opposed to the death penalty as a matter of principle - killing under the cloak of the judicial system is still killing.

I am also opposed for the pragmatic reason that the penalty is final and allows no scope to rectify mistakes. A number of posters have referred to sentences that appear too lenient. But what about the innocent people wrongfully convicted? Has anybody asked Lindy Chamberlain what she thinks about the death penalty? The Morling inquiry would not have helped Lindy much if she had been executed after being found guilty.
Here in the West we have had two people convicted of murder in the 60s and spent many years in prison who have recently had their convictions quashed after further inquiry. The High Court has recently expressed serious doubts about the case against another convicted murderer in WA and that is also now under review.
There have also been many cases in the UK and USA convicted on the basis of dodgy evidence.
They can be released from prison and compensated if appropriate when subsequently acquitted but they can't be brought back to life if executed in the mean time.

To Shonga. I deny that most people are opposed to the death penalty. Every poll that I have ever seen indicated the exact opposite. The reason why politicians will not give us a referenda on this issue is because they know that the pro death penalty agenda will win.

The Christian God did not say "Thou shalt not kill", He said "Thou shalt not murder." Theologians have always interpreted this as meaning that killing for personal reasons is forbiden but killing on behalf of your community (eg warfare or executing criminals) is OK by God.

If killing people is naughty then we should immediately disband our army. All armies not only say to their members "Thou shalt kill", but also "Great woe shall betide thee if thou dost not."

Polls on this subject are useless because they are invaribly taken in the midst of some high profile case. Take a poll the day after the headlines red "madman rapes and murders 20 schoolgirls" and you will no doubt get widespread support. Take another poll after the headlines read "executed citizen found not guilty" and likewise you will find less support. By the way Redneck, we don't have a referendum on the subject because one is not required. These are used when changes to the constitution are required. Reintroduction of capital punishment does not require constitutional change.

What do you say to the mother, wife, husband or kids of a person murdered by the state for a crime they did not commit. 1 in 8 of the people murdered by the US courts have been founded to be no guilty. When DNA and other modern techs were used. When you kill someone you can't undo it? As for Judges not given correct jail terms I think people need to have a closers look at their guidelines. The jail terms seem to much once you have a loved one facing one. The death penalty is an act of revenge not punishment.

I do not believe we should bring back the death penalty merely to placate the rednecks (and being one is nothing to be proud of) within our society. It is usually the rednecks who form the basis of TV, phone polls etc., because they have the most free time, so the poll is usually biased. Many rednecks consider it worthwhile spending a lot of money to enter polls at 55c per call, just to make it seem more people agree with them. One thought it 'worth the 50 bucks just to keep them muslims in detention' a while ago. The US is an example of harsh punishment and death penalties being no deterrent. They still have the highest rates of theft, murder, rape etc., than anywhere else.

redneck, considering how adept this government is at judging the mood of Australia’s mostly conservative population, think of all the 'wedge issues' we have had in the last few years, and considering that all those against the death penalty are of course 'weak lefty' labour, greens and dems voters, you would think that the government would be all over this issue, if they really thought that there was an election winning vote in it. Think of the situation in America, where mainstream candidates run on a pro death penalty platform in certain areas, king George 2's platform when running for governor of Texas for example.

Barry, the removal of the victim’s family from the sentencing process is one of the great civilising principals of modern justice, and is an integral part of the process which has lead to this country being at the forefront of countries with an independent and impartial judiciary, as well as a free and fair democracy. It always astounds me that people such as you and redneck, supposed patriots, are the first to suggest that we become more like the criminals, more like the terrorist, more like the oppressive regimes, who you have, in other forums decried as your enemies. I can only conclude that the regressive primitivism of the right knows no national or religious boundaries.

We can only be thankful that you remain in the minority.

Redneck – you are right – most people, when asked, declare they support the death penalty, regardless of any prevailing circumstances which anti-death penalty proponents might use as an excuse.

I would, personally, support the execution of drug pedlars before “murderers”, the excuse of murderers might just be due to “emotional blindness”. No such mitigation can be extended to drug pedlars, who destroy lives coldly and callously.

Kenny – your complaints regarding US use of death penalty for what you claim are, supposedly, “innocent victims” is misdirected.

Your protest should be directed to the process which, you would claim, allows a significant number of “innocent people” to be found guilty in the first place. Fix that “problem” and you will resolve your objections to the death penalty and release a lot of “innocent people” from supposedly unjust prison sentences as a bonus.

Its not easy being
1 Redneck’s view on the death penalty is in the majority, you are in the minority.

2 You have miss appointed GW Bush as royalty, the USA turned its back on having a monarch, (even a constitutional one) over 200 years ago.

Oh maybe you were being sarcastic – never mind – your low wit is certain to fall under the radar of thinking people.

3 as for “I can only conclude that the regressive primitivism of the right knows no national or religious boundaries.”

And I guess the “left” has still some way to go before it can come to terms with being intellectually barren and politically “impotent”.

The difference between “primitivism” and “impotence”?
– well, the ability to survive beyond one generation at least!

I am opposed to the death penalty, I don’t believe that it deters crime, for the simple reason that no-one who ever commits a crime ever thinks that they will be caught.

We can be protected by locking up offenders for sufficient time, as punishment, as a general deterrent (that is, so that others who consider committing crime may just think twice about it), as an individual deterrent, so that the imprisoned individual is made to think about their future, and for protection of society.

Mind you, I am a bit of a fascist when it comes to law and punishment in some areas: I believe that illegal parking should result in the loss of licence, that no car sold in Australia should be able to exceed 115 km/hr, that dangerous driving occasioning death should be sentenced as murder. On the other hand I would legalise heroin but keep cannabis and cocaine illegal.

On the topic of the death penalty: If it is to be reintroduced it should be carried out in public, and televised, compulsorily, on all TV stations, with repeats of the carrying out of the sentence during each ad break. Videos of the execution should be shown in schools, and just before the starting of all films in cinemas.

After all, if the authorities are going to kill someone in the name of the community, then the community should be made to watch what is being done in its name. The preferred method of execution would be either industrial shredder or hydraulic press. Failing that, reintroduce the practice of hanging, drawing and quartering. The Westfield plaza closest to where the crime was committed would be a good venue.

Let us not pretend that it is a medical procedure involving an injection, or something which looks painless and sheds no blood. If we want it to be a deterrent, then lets make the pain as real as possible. The pain may be more of a deterrent than the actual death.

And while we are at it reintroduce public flogging as well.

A university study somewhere proved that using the death penalty saved the lives of another 18 innocent people.
Somewhere else another lot of academics are peddling like blazes to prove that using the death penalty causes another 18 deaths.
I wish they would make up their minds.
I think it just proves that no body can be sure of anything at all but that doesn't stop people from spouting very dubious facts. If it will get them some free publicity.

Col Rouge, and his mad mate redneck, are not only in a tiny paranoid minority, but lack any compassion, common decency, or consideration of their fellow man. In rednecks case I can sympathise because from what I have read he is a former soldier, trained to kill, in Col Rouge's case, I don't know if a shared background exists, or if stupidity reigns supreme. I read a comment in my local newspaper today, which sums things up for me. :Punishment is meant to teach the criminal a lesson, a lesson which is pretty difficult to learn, if the punishment involves death; maybe someone can explain to me why it is that the drug mules get hung, but the drug bosses carry on unhindered, I would have thought if anyone were to be hung it should be the organisers, not the guinea pigs...

SHONGA,
I think you live in the land of OZ with the tin man and dorothy.
Redneck and others like him, I feel are sick and tired of the hardend crims getting away with the crimes they commit. We as a whole are not talking about ececuting the average parking infringment offender, or the wife basher ect. I think we are talking about the crim who reoffends repeatedly and has been convicted with out dought. Lindy Chamberland would not have fallen into this catougary as stated in a previous post by another, as there was dought and lack of hardened evidence. But the person who sits in a clock tower with a high powered rifle and picks off people at randum would fall into the group for consideration. Thats why Amercia has death row. I think you should take the blinkers off and look at the real world. And as for ladeling ex military well back off sister. Who are you going to call on when Anarche rises. The Salvos. Yes they could all pray for peace. But at the end of the day Peace is achieved through supieor fire power. End of Lecture

Daniel Miles has now been convicted of the murder of 21 year old Yolande Michael while on the run from a NSW prison. He had escaped from prison where he was serving time for the murder of 16 year old Donna Newland.

In the mid sixties, Leonard Keith Lawson was released from prison after abducting and murdering a 15 year old girl. While on parole, he raped and murdered 15 year old Mary Jane Bower at Collaroy (in Sydney.) With the police looking for him, he entered a SCEGGS girls school in Bowral and attempted to abduct a schoolgirl. In the struggle with a female heroic teacher, he fired a sawn off rifle several times which seriously wounded the female teacher and killed 15 year old Wendy Luscombe.

When Gordon Barry Hadlow was released from a Queensland prison after 22 years for the rape and murder of a six year old girl (Samantha Dorothy Bacon) he then abducted, raped, and murdered a 9 year old girl, Sharon Margaret Hamilton.

Had these three child rapist murderers been executed, four young women would still be alive today. The attitude of the anti death penalty brigade is curious. The lives of the worst kinds of criminals are sacrosanct. Only the lives of the innocent are expendable.

Capital punishment definitely stops repeat offenders

Redneck

Mmmm. Your post examples are chilling. I can see the point you are making. Actually, when I read your post I felt quite nauseous. I wondered about the girls' parents and their siblings. Sadly, they are in prison for the rest of their lives.

Now I am ambivalent again. Did you read my previous post?

Cheers
Kay

PS: What is the difference between killing and murder?

Recent Australian surveys indicate that if a referendum was held now, we would see the death penalty reintroduced. It would boil down to the wording & timing of the referendum, given that we now see, statistically, around 55% for its reintroduction. Anecdotal evidence indicates the actual percentage supporting CP's reintroduction could be as high as 70%.
This worries me. It worries me that we, as a nation, can be so collectively immature. It worries me that we cannot see the revengeful, ineffective stupidity of intentionally taking another life when the threat has already been isolated.
The main argument for CP as presented in this thread surrounds reoffence by released criminals. May I suggest this is a fault of the system of incarceration. I agree, many ciminal cases appear to result in inadequate punishment. I also consider that, quite often, legal technicalities override intuition & common sense during the sentencing process. There are obvious cases for the revision of the sentencing system.
But this does not mean CP should be used.
I think the monty python guys concluded in one sketch that if she weighed the same as a duck, she must be a witch (& therefore put to death). The death penalty makes precisely this much sense.

To Kalweb.

The difference between killing and murder is the difference between a serial killer and a soldier.

Human attitides to killing other human beings is paradoxical. The dividing line has always been the intent of the slaying. Laws exist in every society for the fundamental reason of preventing violence within the group which would threaten the stabilty (and therefore the survival) of the group.

So every community teaches it's young through it's culture that killing for personal reasons is generally very bad (there are very violent cultures where this rule is not so far reaching), while killing on behalf of your community is heroic and very good.

Thus here in Australia we do not call our old soldiers "murderers", we honour them for doing the job that they did and even hand out medals to some who were very effective killers. However, soldiers themselves can be somewhat leery of this double standard themselves, Australian soldiers in WW1 called themselves "two bob a day murderers".

barry/redneck: not that redneck needs help, wanna bet, you both need help and plenty of it if you can't afford private the State Government has psychirists available, I suggest, you don't let the grass grow under your feet, you could book a joint appointment.

Quote:

PS: What is the difference between killing and murder?

Posted by kalweb, Thursday, 8 December 2005 6:09:35

kalweb

Killing, in this context, is obviously taking the life of a human life. I am not a lawyer, but murder is when someone deliberately kills someone else, without lawful reason, intending to kill or to inflict grievous bodily harm, in other words, serious injury, on the victim, whether on the spur of the moment or if it has been planned.

Murder can be reduced to manslaughter when, for instance, a person is found to have been provoked in a way that 'the ordinary man' would react to violence and death occurs.

Manslaughter can also be found when a person is carrying out a dangerous act, and death results. One exception, and in my opinion a bad exception, is the charge of 'dangerous driving occaissioning death' that has been substituted, in NSW, for some charges which may otherwise be manslaughter.

I believe that if a person is driving dangerously, against the laws that govern road use, and someone is killed, then the charge should be manslaughter.

One problem is that it is very hard to get juries to convict for manslaughter in road related deaths.

Self defence can be an absolute defence to the charge of murder, if it is found that the actions taken in self defence are justifiable. Of course there are other situations, such as when a police officer shoots and kills someone in the course of their duties in order to protect either themsleves or to prevent a serious crime from taking place.

To anyone who is on a jury at the moment or in the future I would ask that you follow what the judge says, and not what I have just written.

barry, Peace is achieved by superior firepower, now we are really seeing what you are vmade of you are a war mongur as well. Not content to subscribe to barbaric State Killings, you also advocate for superior firepower. I bet you believed the stupidity og Pig Iron Bob, and his "yellow peril" or reds under the beds" buldust. I suggest to you that the only way peace will ever be achieved is with the absence of soldiers, re "The Universal Soldier" anti-Vietnam war song from the usa in the 60's. The reason your "real world" as you put it, is so, is because of you folls who believe in "superior firepower" if war bought peace we would have peace noe, you fool.

SHONGA
The problem is not with me or my beliefs it is with the judical system and now in light of the civil unrest with raceisum in the southern state. The issue of law and punishment is now hotting up. Should CP be introduced back in to our judical system or is that emotion takes over our logical thought process. One should not throw stones if they live in a glass house. I am not a war monger but if the legal and social system in place today can not restore ballance then the military can. You can preash love and peace all you like, turn the other cheak, let bygones be bygones ect. But it is human nature to want revenge for the wrong doings of others to us or our loved ones. The human righters have alot to answer for and most of it is not good. Why should a victum forgive and forget. Let the victum decide the outcome of a crim, and if they chose to live and let live then so be it. But be it on there head and choncience if the crim reofends and it could have been prevented. Peasc through superior fire power. Might is right. Oh yes I get all the counciling and psyc help I need thanks..

barry, Community Mental Health is a dree service provided by the Queensland Government.

Barry

You talk about how we should not be motivated by 'emotion' when it comes to the death penalty. In the same post you state that it is human nature to want revenge and that this should somehow affect the punishment. Tell me Barry, what is it exactly that you stand for?

Tubs

People,

Read the article below and tell me if you believe this is an effective way to deal with crime in a so-called civilised society...

And please, let's not look at what Mr Williams did, of course it's a terrible thing. I am appealing to the intelligence of others, challenging them indeed, to suggest an alternative solution rather than primitive retribution and vengeance.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/12/12/PREP.TMP

tubley
Hav read your post and my stance on CP is still firm. Bring It Back.
Once a Crim allways A crim. Once a killer always a killer. Once a rock spider always a rock spider, get the point. No fancy words or human centiment. Bring back the death penatly.

SHONGA “Col Rouge, and his mad mate redneck, are not only in a tiny paranoid minority, but lack any compassion, common decency, or consideration of their fellow man. ….. in Col Rouge's case, I don't know if a shared background exists, or if stupidity reigns supreme.”

Oh Shonga, I have rallied to meet your petulant outbursts head on and will not be suspended again for challenging you with appropriate invective.

Because we disagree with your “personal view” does not make redneck or I “mad”,“paranoid” nor do you have any basis of assessment, to judge us lacking in any human quality of compassion, decency or consideration. Certainly “stupidity”, if we are to assess such on any commonly applied test of cognitive ability is not an option either.

Beyond your own defective judgement you have nothing to contribute. I would ask – why do you bother – to give vent to you pathetic excuse for personality, which is dominated by what seems to be a malignant ego?

As for “Punishment is meant to teach the criminal a lesson,”
My support goes to second offence drug dealing becomes a capital offence – why?
Because , knowing a second offence is capital and continuing to trade in drugs means the criminal, when “sentenced” on the second offence (and doubtless that is not just the “second offence”) has had opportunity and failed to “learn the lesson” and thus – forfeits the right to participate in a civilised society.

Now Shonga – I seriously suggest you turn down the invective, moderate your language and remember – yours is a solitary view and likely to remain so whilst your ability to “win friends and influence people” remains on par with the bottom of a septic tank.

Oh I see Barry is being targeted by you too – do not be drawn Barry – I would bet Shonga’s opportunity to spout his asinine view on this forum is likely to be curtailed shortly

Col, Your arrogance is breathtaking, petulant, who do you think you are, the Queen of Shieba? I have explained why I hold the opinion I do, I am a Christian, and as such, don't support inhumane, barbaric practises like the death penalty. If your opinion is greater than mine, and you can have me kicked off,do it, that is an indication of your MO. Opress any opposition, to your prehistoric ideas, I still say those who advocate for the death penalty have no compassion for their fellow man, and indeed displays an inner cowardice, and inferiority complex.When we imprison them, we have the opportunity to study them to see what makes them tick, so we may find a gene that will be able to be geneticly modified at birth. Think outside the square gentlemen, and ladies of course.....

Col Rouge, please. Capital punishment is wrong. If you like the idea of killing so much then go and hire some cheap American film where you can watch the 'bad guys' get their heads blown off and the 'good guys' ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after.

I used to be a hateful, spiteful teenager and I believed in capital punishment but then I grew up. Countries grow up too and they learn better ways of handling things. For some countries it takes a little longer.

I am active in encouraging positive change through my work as a teacher and by my support of Amnesty International. I hope you can do something constructive too.

Shonga “Col, Your arrogance is breathtaking, petulant, who do you think you are, the Queen of Shieba?”

You are just not getting the message are you.

If you are claiming to be “Christian” you must have missed whole chunks about tolerance, charity and especially the bit about “love thy neighbour” and turning “the other cheek” – your rebukes of me are infantile and asinine – you parody me as “the Queen of Shieba” – such outbursts are not those I have traditionally associated with those who practice “Christian Values”.

You stated

“I still say those who advocate for the death penalty have no compassion for their fellow man, and indeed displays an inner cowardice, and inferiority complex.”

– boring hyperbole and drivel unsupported by any statistical research – the words “humbug” and “garbage” spring to mind.

I would suggest Read some books land get an education before you write.

As for

“When we imprison them, we have the opportunity to study them to see what makes them tick, so we may find a gene that will be able to be geneticly modified at birth.”

Ah – Eugenics in the making, or maybe selective breeding – both the ideas of megalomaniacs and elitists with small intellects.

Just the stuff for those who want to run roughshod over “Human Rights”.

Your ideas are actually worse than the death penalty – but “playing GOD” would seem to fit with your self-image.

Tubley – disagree – it is a matter of accepting personal responsibility – or not, as the case may be. Locking people up indefinitely (with no possibility of parole) is not nice either.

Oh, re your suggestion, I do many things which are “constructive”, including provide specialist services to prisons. Dealing with criminals is different to “talking about criminals” – its called “experience” from getting your hands dirty – you should try it.

As for watching videos of “bad guys” – grow up – I am sure you can do better if you try.

If the death penalty is seen as the "ultimate disencentive" by its supporters, why do people still commit the crimes that will result in the death penalty?
The death penalty is "murder by the state" and has been used in societies to silence radicals and people who oppose the status quo.
The death penalty can not be undone and there have been many cases where people have been cleared of their crimes post humously. Cold comfort to all involved!
As the general mental health services in society have declined there is a higher proportion of mentally ill people inappropraitely placed in prison as a last resort. These people are placed at risk by genuine criminals and by their untreated mental illness. How many mentally ill people who have committed heinous crimes due to their untreated mental illness have been put to death?
In America poor unducated black men make up much of the prision population. A group that is unable due to educational and financial constraints to adequately defend themselves is it any surprise that many of those who suffer the death penalty are represented by this group?
The death penalty is a dangerous tool that should not be placed in the hands of fallible humans.

darkangyl
That is why it is the death pen. It is designed to be final. No more cost to the tax payer and no more problems of them reoffending. It ammazes me that the lifers always seem to find god and reform if means a shortened sentance. If you right for lifers are so serious about human rights then ho about finding a real cause to fight for. Oh say the rights of little fluffy puppies. Jokers, come to the real world. If it wasent for you do gooders then socity would not be in the state it is in now. If you dont like the country then leave. Go back to fagsville but dont bring your soft touchy feely ways here this is how terrosim is born.

darkangyl, I have learnt my lesson there are none so blind as those who will not see. They have been presented rational, resonable arguement, but fail to comprehend. This will be my last post on this thread, as the ignorance from the barbarians is sad. In a country like Australia used to be, to still find this amount of ignorance is really disappointing, I can see now what Federal Education Minister Dr Brendan Nelson says is true, that there are a lot of the population, unable to comprehend issues. These people are still living in the darkages, with their primative thoughts. I am a progressive, not a regressive, so I have had enough of their blinkered beliefs, all I can say is that I hope they are not so regressive in all aspects of their lives, and hope that a day may arrive when they will see the errors of their ways, in the meantime darkangyl, welcome to the progressive thinkers we can surely use your comments here.

Col Rouge, I think I am qualified to state that I have experience. I'm an early childhood school teacher, maybe I'll even teach someone you know one day. Teaching is probably the most important job there is. Do you know of anyone who has never had a teacher? I see kids as they are, young and untainted, innocent and not a bad bone in their little bodies. Something throughout their lives happens that makes them into good or bad people. Intelligent and caring people try to find answers to life's problems. Noone deserves to be put to death no matter who they are.

Civilisation is an advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions. Some how I dont think that the "death penalty" comes under this definition.
Terrorism is a complex issue that cannot be solved with the use of the death penalty. The death penalty makes matyrs of terrorists encouraging others to emulate them. Terrrorism should be seen in the light of those that commit it as a very cheap (one life) weapon of war that kills many whilst only killing one "soldier".
Great minds are to make others great. Their superiority is to be used, not to break the multitude to intellectual vassalage, not to establish over them a spiritual tyranny, but to rouse them from lethargy, and to aid them to judge for themselves.
William Ellery Channing- its just unfortunate that some people have such deadly views.

Tubley “I'm an early childhood school teacher, “

I would point out, People in prison and on death row are a little older than the “mob” you teach.

“Teaching is probably the most important job there is.”

Lessons on “Modesty” not being on the syllabus?

“I see kids as they are, young and untainted, innocent and not a bad bone in their little bodies. Something throughout their lives happens that makes them into good or bad people.” –

That works only if you expect all “badness” to be the result of some “socially acquired deficiency” – I would suggest such a view is extremely naïve. Plenty of people are not the recipients of any bad environment, they are “bad” themselves. Likewise, people do overcome the worst adversity of circumstance to have productive and criminal-free lives. Criminals (or the criminally minded) look for the easy options in life – and the first option is to find someone or something to “blame” for those “bad traits”.

By the time they “mature” your “kids” will have lost that first blooms of innocence and potential.

“Intelligent and caring people try to find answers to life's problems.”

And “really intelligent” people know how and when to make the “hard decisions” upon realising some of “life’s problems” have no answer – beyond everyone accepting responsibility and the consequences for their own actions.

Which comes to prisoners in general, drug dealers and killers in particular. The only group of prisoners who regularly accept responsibility for their actions tend to be culpable drivers – the vast majority of the rest accept no responsibility – they blame everyone and everything else and then only because they got caught.

“No one deserves to be put to death no matter who they are.”

Tell me that when one of your family is “just another victim”

Mr Rouge,

Until you have spent a day teaching in a classroom, please don't tell me about MY job.

To say that I am not being 'modest' because I promote my profession as being extremely important is wrong. After all, I was not promoting myself, only the importance of my job. I was also undermining your suggestion that I have no 'experience'.

To say that people are innately 'bad' is one of the most rediculous things I have ever heard. Why then is there such variation among nations in their crime rates? In some nations we have extremely low crime rates and on the other extreme you have the likes of the USA. If people were innately 'bad' then surely the crime rates would be more even accross society. Right?

I do have sympathy for victims, a hell of a lot more than I do for the killers on death row. I, too would like a safer society so in that regard we have the same veiw. But the difference between you and me is that I believe that there is more effective, more civilised way to deal with crime than capital punishment.

I'm not the only one. Countries all over the world are gradually abolishing the death penalty.

When talking about Australia in particular I am not suggesting a weaker, less strict system. In fact I believe that many crimes should warrent harsher prison senteces. The sexual abuse laws, domestic violence, animal cruelty and reckless driving laws in this country are pathetically weak.

I do believe laws in general should be stricter. But I do not believe in capital punishment.

In general, certainty is a lot more effective than severity (sorry to draw that from my teaching 'experience'). But I think it's obvious - a drug dealer would surely risk a 'possible' 20 year sentence before they risked a 'definate' ten year sentence.

Final say to all you tree hugging do gooders and hippies. Kill them all and start again. Or if you lot of free love and dope smokers get your way we will have rockspiders living in the general comunity and while you sit in your ivory towers, segerated from real life you can look down and say how sad that child was raped or sexualy abused, someone should have done somthing. Well god damit do somthing give the offenders of all crimes somthing to fear in the judical system.
War and death is not the answer but it sure as hell cleanes out the rubish of socity.
End of Message

I wonder if that rubbish includes you, Barry.