Possibly, Alby Schultz didn't have the guts to say "Muslims" should be kept out, so he carefully veiled his meaning with weasel words.

Australia is a Christian country nominally, not in fact. Religion, in no practical sense, has any bearing on our society and no special place in it. It never really has, even when most of us were "Christian".

Schultz should have referred to who he really meant: Muslims. Athiests and adherents of non-Christians religions don't carry the problems with them that Muslims do everywhere they go. Muslims "overdo" their religion, and they stick out like sore thumbs. It will never work in Australia, where religion is a private thing without influence on a secular, democratic society

The power allegedly held by Opus Dei in the NSW Right of the liberal party, or the fact of Bob Santamaria's long contribution to political life, the action of the groupers, the evolution/demise of the DLP, the work of the Salvation Army in the anti-drug lobby, the rise of the Family First Party, the socio-political work of the Brotherhood of St Lawrence,the influence religion has on the actions of Kevin Andrews, Kevin Rudd and Tony Abbott and Senator Boswell, the constant "interference" by most of the Australian Bishops into policy debates (so stridently complained about by the more conservatives at the moment) - suggests religion is far from a private thing, far from being without influence within our secular society and remains a vibrant part of our democracy.

Leighs assertion that Schultz didnt have the guts to tag the Muslims is probably right. - it would be courageous though - it would be dumb - having said that some politicians could get mileage out of muslim bashing; it is afterall a popular sport in these pages.

Leigh is also right to say we are nominally religious at best - notwithstanding the influence exerted by those cloaked in religious garb listed above.

But if we tolerate Muslim bashing in principle it is only a small step to accept any other form of intolerance and hostiltiy towards the next group who happen to offend our sensibilities - there is already a barely supressed envy towards the Asian community, succesfull in business and whose children are excelling at school - whats the tipping point for some who see more and more of the top places in Universities to non white Australians?. Seethe away.

We are fast approaching the Fiji syndrome - while we are harder to define as a distinct race there are those among us who think they know who belongs here and who doesnt - you can read them every day here; some have even listed inclusion criteria and as a fifty year old born here White guy I fail most of them - gladly

Well said Sneek... always like your reasoning...

I'm totally against Muslim bashing too. The scenes of Muslims bashing, first in Victora outside the courts where reporters copped it, and now in Cronulla in NSW where both reporters and life savers were on the end of it, should not to be tolerated in our country. Any Muslims who feel that bashing is an acceptable means of dealing with their frustrations should nick off to a country where that animalistic behaviour is the norm. Their home ones should normally suffice.

Here we go again,

Very clever article to lure us in so we will appear to be the racists. You can fool some of the people... but we now know your schemes.

I don't know about anyone else but the real problem is not so much muslims imposing themselves on our society but it's our "secular democratic" system that they so cleverly learned to use and abuse.

Wake up Oz.

This is still the lucky country “for some”.

Indeed Irfan Muslims in Australia do face difficult situations and choices.

I accept only a minority in the Australian Muslim community follow radical clerics. However I understand the wider community concern at the apparent unity of the Muslim community. I’ll not excuse such concerns but merely point out such attitudes existed and applied towards every group of migrants that has ever come to this country. That includes the Irish Catholics, the Italian Catholics, the Greek Orthdox, the European Jews, the Indian Sikhs, Hindus and Buddahists, Chinese Falon Gong, Buddahists and Confusians, the faithless New Zealanders and many other groups with mixed religious belief. My point being twofold, firstly all groups are characterised as having some religious or no belief and secondly all groups were and felt victimised by and isolated from the broader community.
That said all of those groups within two or three generations had substantially integrated with the wider community. Many have kept their traditional beliefs and customs. The New Zealanders even still barrack for the damnable All Blacks. Now I am not going to go over the old, worn and generalised arguments about the likely adaptabity of the Muslim community or it’s intergration. I think most of them bigoted. I will however ask you a few very specific questions that are probably the basis for much of the non-Muslim Australian concerns.

Firstly the issue of Muslim Solidarity. Just how relevant and important is that tenet of Islam to both the radical and the wider Muslim community and how does each reconcile that teaching with loyalty to Australia and non-Muslim Australians?

Secondly the very difficult topic of Innovations. Just how much relevance and influence do the various teachings associated with that tenet hold within both the radical community and the wider Muslim community?

There are other issues but I think these reflect what most people are concerned about. I don’t just think it is Liberal Members of Parliament raising such concerns. I also think if the issues are out in the open and discussed reasonably then there is less likelihood the bigots, racists and extremists view’s will prevail.

Yes Harryc,you beat me to the punch.When is the Muslim community going to address the violence perpetrated on skips by Muslim gangs?
Would Irfan Usef kindly address this problem that is almost a daily occurence in Sydney instead of pleading victim status?

The silence,inaction,constantly pleading victim status and lack of commitment to the Australian way of life says more about Muslim attitudes than any Koran could ever state.

QUOTE: Australia is a secular liberal democratic nation.

RESPONSE: Oh how I wish Australia was a "Liberal Democracy". Unfortunately we are in fact a "Social Democracy".

Very Important question that was asked but never answered. What is "anti-Christian" behaviour. Australian culture has the Judeo-Christian foundation. Democracy and the principle of equality (reality may be different but that's the principle) and rule of law, love thy neighbour etc.

What is wrong with the idea of preferring people that believe in those principles (not the religion but the principle)? I ask the question only.

In my quick scan of the article (its late, I'm tired....) I did not see where Muslims were singled out. So why was the majority of the rest of the article talking about Muslims? That is maybe an indication of the belief that Muslims are targeted? Why is that? Does Irfan acknowledge something we dare not say?

As to ...” For a start, there is little evidence to suggest that non-Christians integrate any less successfully into mainstream Australian life. Australia’s largest non-Christian faith community follows the teachings of Buddha, not Muhammad.” But the principles of equality, democracy etc Buddhists seem to accept? Maybe that is why they integrate well? That is not anti-Christian? Is it?

So before we say this is religious discrimination. Ask the question is it religious at all?

"Anti Christian" behavior.

Should this be a Criteria for limiting people coming to Australia ?

Well, I have a feeling that 'any' bad behavior is a criteria. I believe it is called the 'background check'.

I have another thought also, and that would be to include in the background check, any kinship bond with existing families (extended) who have a known track record of gangsterism, violence, crime etc..
and this could/should apply to any ethnic group or religious group.

I would have no problem restricting the migration of relations to the Big Circle Gang of Cabramatta. or the Telopea st boys of Punchbowl.

I don't think Alby is on the right track to single out 'anti-Christian' though speaking 'as' a Christian and also as a member of a democractic society, I would restrict the migration of anyone who is related to people who try to claim our land as 'their' ethnic/religious territory "Its OUR beach, get off it, we own it" (say Middle Eastern males at Cronulla)

Kinship/ethnic/religious ties among minorities gives them an apparent strength far in excess of their actual numbers.

The 2 groups which have proved most violent and anti social, and 'ethnocentric' have been the Asian and Lebanese Muslim gangs.
Police raided a resturant where 120 Big circle gang members were feasting on Lobster and the like I read. There was the notorious Telopea st gangs, drive by shootings, even of a police station, and then the gang 'racist' rapes and now the Cronulla "Its our beach" thing. Then there is the attempted intimidation of anyone (including police) who will testify against the perpetrators.

This is a cancer of the most terminal kind.

Australia is "SECULAR". Yes, but only in the sense of not having one particular 'established denomination' as the official religion.

Howard -Anglican
Costello -Baptist
Abbot -Catholic
Lords Prayer is said at the opening of Parliament

So there is a healthy christian 'flavor' in our government and institutions.

The flavor of our wider society, depends on our collective strength or weakness based on our own committment or lack thereof to the values we cherish.

"Accept it - Australia is secular, liberal, democratic"

Hmmm. So, Australia has a certain unchanging character that the author agrees with. We have gotten to this character from a more Christian past, so obviously the character has changed somewhat. Yet the author feels that we should just 'accept it' now? So why are some people able to change society, but not when the author is happy with where society is?

I strongly disagree with muslim-bashing, but the authors appeal to his preferable status quo and that we should just 'accept it' is self-serving rhetoric with no real value in discourse.

"Easier said than done. For a start, there is little evidence to suggest that non-Christians integrate any less successfully into mainstream Australian life. Australia’s largest non-Christian faith community follows the teachings of Buddha, not Muhammad.

Further, the most recent study of Australia’s Muslim community conducted in 2004 by Professor Abdullah Saeed, of Melbourne University, shows that over half of Australian Muslims were born in Australia."
That half of australian muslim's are born in Australia is irrelevant to whether they have integrated.

"Much is made of the size and composition of congregations attending the lectures of radical clerics in Sydney and Melbourne. Yet the 1,000 or so that attend the lessons of these sheiks fade into insignificance compared to the 25,000 or so Muslim Australians that attended the Multicultural Eid Festival at Sydney’s Fairfield Showground on Sunday, November 20."
I see, so roughly 4% of muslims attend radical clerics lectures is meant to be a comfort?

There is very little that is remotely Christian about the social Darwinian policies being rolled out by Mr Scultz and his colleagues. I can think of a couple of other 'messianic' cults that resonate through the current extremist assault this Govt has launched on key democratic values but Christianity is not one of them. Christ was a humanist revolutionary who preached tolerance, compassion and charity. These are values singularly missing from this Government's neocon platform.

Whether one agrees with the White Australia Policy or not, you have to agree that the turbulance and dissent that is now apparent here has come about since the dropping of that policy and the advent of the failing Multiculture.
Law and order also appears to have been discarded and ethnic gangs are dominant in Australian streets .
Why are "gangs" permitted at all? Why are there no laws to ban such groups?
'They will just go underground!' I can hear the chorus now, underground is better than being tolerated, 'underground ' could have built in difficulties.
Bringing in thugs from the third world has not improved our society, the rules of immigration need to be severely tightened no matter how the refugee advocates screech.

mickijo, i guess what you think we need is good old-fashioned genocidal thugs from the UK to massacre our indigenous peoples. like the ones brought here on boats around 200 years ago. would you prefer that?

Irfan you are judging present generations by the actions of past generations.It has been 217 years since the first fleet.The Aborigines were not even considered to be human in those early years,similar those black africans of today who still consider monkey and gorilla meat a delicacy.What is the degree if intelligence that distinguishes us from animals?

We are all products of our environment and can only act accordingly within the paramaters of both our logical and ethical education.

Muslims should be trying harder to engage the the wider Australian community.Most people will be more understanding if they see Muslims trying to intergrate but also being proactive in curbing the excesses of those with intransient and extreme views who actively promote hatred and violence.

To blame the problem on everyone else in this country is just evading the problem.Sure there are Aussies full of blind hatred, but some who have been intimidated and assaulted by Muslim gangs have a pretty good reason.The NSW Govt is useless,why not put some pressure on them to clean up these gangs because it reflects badly on all Muslims?Surely Morris Iemma would listen to those in his own electorate.This Govt is too affraid of offending, for fear of losing votes.

It is time for some leadership from the Muslim community.

Irfan

Many of those thugs were were Irish Catholics. They've successfully intergrated into the society and many of their descendants champion the civil rights of the indigenous people. This appears an attempt to right wrongs their forebears inflicted on those people. But I don't think you should try to make the current generation bear the sins of their fathers. That only leads down the road of long-term intolerance and eventual violence. We, thankfully, as you are fully aware, are way beyond that particular idiotic bigotry in Australia.

It does you no credit to raise that difficult topic in this particular discussion. It will only lead to more inflamed and bigoted responses and that isn't in the best interests of anyone.

I sense your intellect far greater than to have the need to respond on the same levels as others who have insensitive and bigoted views. We all fall to this temptation at times.

The subject matter is much to complex for that shallow type of debate.

But I will dare you to use your obvious talent and write an in depth piece on the subjects I rasied in an earlier post. I am sure the vast majority of intergrated and sensitive Australians would find your views on those topics very instructive and interesting. Many of us have actually started a process of learning and attempting an understanding of Islam. Your views could mould a deal of thinking within the great body of reserved and tolerant Australians.

I'd prefer the convicts, amazing people. They overcame so much and built a great country.

It shocks and saddens me that some people here cannot see the inherent barbarism involved in the massacres and destruction of our indigenous Australian heritage over the past 2 centuries. If integration means regarding Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians as inferior beings and justifying their slaughter and displacement, I'd rather not be part of such integration. Even Amanda Vanstone and Phillip Ruddock have shown greater humanity to our indigenous heritage than some of you here. But then, so many of you simply haven't figured out what it means to be Australian in the 21st century.

Here we go,take the high moral ground of being an inferior victimised
human being,so that you have the justification of taxing those who have not only the ability to keep you in the manner in which you are unaccustomed or deserve, but the the will to want to achieve something better.

Face the reality Irfan,it has being happening since Homo Sapiens conquered the Neanderthals and is only recently through decmocracy and the concept of social justice have the inferior masses such as myself,been able to voice our opinion.

Be thankful for the legacy of Einstein and all those brilliant people who sacrificed their ego for the common good.You and many who live here,don't know how well off you are because of the sacrifice of past generations,and there is the shame.Do you think there is nobility in living a subsistance level and starving to death in the desert in your teens in the name of Aboriginality gives meaning or quality of life to anyones existence?

Everything competes for existence,even the birds you feed on your balcony.Our civilisation born of the productivity of this capitalist system,gives you the luxury of introspection and the time to bite the hand that feeds you.

The answer is simple,either move away to the higher moral ground of your Muslim philosophy or suffer the the continued openess and abundance of western capitalism.You cannot have it both ways!

The Convicts were sent here to jail. Often for just small crimes, they were whipped, at times to death, starved and used as slave labour. Most Aussies are proud of them, for their strength to overcome and build this country. We are also proud and grateful to the Diggers, for similar reasons.

This isn’t a hatred for others its just natural pride in ourselves. It really has nothing to do with others.

Our Convict Ancestors didn’t fall prey to victim mentality and we still don’t today. All sorts of people have all sorts of burdens in life

No Irf, were in the past hence: WERE a secular and Liberated democracy, now we are a Fractured, Oppressed, and are under “Occupation” by foreign and Sub-Intellectual Ideology fit for the Elite Criminals- leading us to be a basket case- lead by immoral and corrupt idiots impersonating Intellectual-but are only- and are looters who are more intent on raping the wealth of a nation, stealing its recourses to line their own pathetic ego’s at the expense of the Australian mind, well the MIND before Liberalism corrupted some. As the Lazy fat butted oxygen restricted brains of pathetic clowns find more ways to steal someone else’s private and intellectuality asserted and effort based property rights.
NO Irf: it sounds like we are Looters Socialist republic of Oceana. Where the Aptitude of fraud in elite levels prospers at the expense of the competent: Where failure is rewarded and excused while success is frowned upon and criminalized Do you have any more questions that need deconstructing and analyzed or be decrypted and decoded to inform people what is really meant.

Much of the so-called genocide has been proven false. Keith Windschuttle (yes that right wing loon, provide facts if you disagree with him, he does) has scoured much of the accusing academic writings and found them for the most part boloney.

Most of you are probably already aware of him, for those that aren't start with Geoffrey Blainey's review of his paper "Fabrication of Aboriginal History. Volume 1, Van Diemen's Land 1803-1847", http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/apr03/blainey.htm.

Debate has moved on since the publication of that and no one has been able to refute his conclusions.

He's got his own site too, http://www.sydneyline.com/.

Irfan's logic is very very flimsy. To try to create some sort of fake bond between Muslims & Jews, as if right-wing Christians are picking on them is outrageous.

Yes, Irfan, anti-semitism is up in Australia, from attacks by Muslims mostly, just as Muslims burn down churches too, with the last one I read about being the Uniting Church at Bass Hill the day after the London attack, by Muslims who left grafitti supporting Bin-Laden. They also made phone calls to the police saying the same thing. It seems, Irfan, that, although your homophobic, racist leaders say that the police need to protect Muslims from a REDNECK backlash, it is your community that have the majority of our rednecks unfortunately.

Moreover, anti-semitism is up all throughout Europe for the same reason. You must know this though, being a Muslim, as the Koran makes it clear that Jews are to be killed, as are all infidels. I'm sick of Muslims quoting one or two of the earlier passages in the Koran that are peaceful, most of it, and yes I've read it, is despicable. It is the mein-kampf of the Islamic religion.

Two words for you Irfan, Cronulla beach. Wonder why so many of us are angry about it? Your community is disrespectful to the core, racist to the core. This is why mothers travel home to Lebanon to find a wife for Ahmed, racist to the core.

How are they to be respectful though when your entire way of thinking is that of an agressive, bigoted, misoginistic culture.

IRF

you should be shocked and saddened by many things in this world, and that definitely includes the treatment of Aboriginals in Australia.

But morbid introspection at this stage is a bit late. You live here, you have inherited the land which resulted from the disposession of our indigenous people, are you ready to invite all the folk from Redfern to share your back yard on a permanent basis ?

HISTORY
The best we can hope for, is to reconcile over the almost irreconcilable, and I think most clear thinking indigenous people who have had any education will recognize that in the push and shove of history, they might just as well have been disposessed by Arabs or Indians or Japanese if they had the colonial impetus that the West did.

SHARED GUILT... "ALL HAVE SINNED"

And before you wring your hands too much over 'dispossessed people' how would you like for us to trace your own Indian ethnic roots back a bit to pre-colonial times and examine with a microscope how many people YOUR ancestors dispossessed and mistreated... sound like fun ?
So, why not give us your ancestral 'tribal label' and we can goto work immediately.

AUSTRALIA-THE DANGERS AHEAD.

is..what we make it. If that involves some further 'ethnic cleansing' it would "be" what that made it. Then, how would it be different from any other bit of land on the face of the earth ? By the way, it doesn't matter who is 'high in Dimia' they do what they are told on a policy level or are 'out'.

The more Australians are made aware of the "inherrant incompatability of Islam" (quite apart from the nice Muslims like you and F.H. though I'm wondering about you -calling me a 'loony') the less they will welcome Muslims here.

OUTRAGE AND REACTION

The real danger though, is that they will react to Muslims in a knee jerk manner as per the text message circulated around Sutherland shire which actually suggested they 'kill' the "lebs and wogs" for making exclusive (but suicidal) territorial claims for Cronulla beach.

Irfan, you mentioned British genocidal thugs? What are you? The only genocide going on right now is your Muslim brothers in Sudan my friend, slaughtering blacks while you Muslims cry for Palestine.

It is these facts that make the ordinary Australian see right through you all. You complain about Palestine yet care nothing for suffering, only Muslim suffering. Where are the Arab groups helping the starving? Saudi's only do this on the condition that those helped become Wahabbi's

In Pakistan right now, the government is evicting thousands of Christians to make way for the homeless Muslims from the earthquake. How are people to view Muslims other than arrogant Nazi's? Do you deny that under Sharia, which is a system ALL Muslims believe is divinely inspired, Christians & Jews are second class citizens?

What about how non-Muslims are treated in Muslim nations? Saudi Arabia ? Iran ? It's shocking. Although, they are only following what the Koran says.

Why is it that at Cronulla beach it's the middle-eastern men who sexually harrass all the girls? Why are these traits so common to Muslim men? Why? Western Racism? Ha Ha Ha

Get serious about the issues Irfan. If you protest out the front of your leaders mosques, Hilali for one, I'll start to respect you. Until Muslims do this, we Australians are right to view you with suspicion. You see, we chase out our KKK. Unfortunately though, I believe that in your community, the KKK make up at least half of you all.

Irf appears to hold present day Australians responsible for the acts carried out by some of our ancestors in the past. According to that school of thought, Muslims should also be held responsible for the past actions of other Muslims.

Lets see now - how about the Islamic world apologise and pay reparations for the 700 year illegal occupation of Spain? How about some reparations and apologies for the tens of thousands of Europeans captured and enslaved by Muslims? And perhaps the Muslim community in Australia could raise a large amount of cash for the crimes committed against Australians by Muslims. All the cowardly attacks, the gang rapes, the spitting and snarling at victims unable to defend themselves, like pregnant women and little girls. For example, my only son was attacked by a gang of seven Lebenese Muslims (the usual odds, 20+ against 3 [Cronulla Beach odds] or 7 against 1). My son nearly died, the blade came within a centimetre of his heart.

So to the Muslim comunity:

No cheques please, cash only.

Middle eastern Muslims are too tribal to assimilate into a diverse racial and religious society. Capturing territory for the tribe has thousands of years of intertribal conflict and is still the problem in their own homelands. Unfortunately their religion and the actions of the prophet is based in the same tribal warring context. Their concept of a peaceful society is when their enemy is dead, captured or silent

Irfan, you are still making the mistake of using the past as a desperate lash to flog us poor old Aussies with.
It appears that you ,like most of your religious, live in the past, the world has moved on and ,I fear, left you all behind.
When you catch up you may see that Aborigines are now well favoured in this country, any problems are generally of their own making.
A bit like Muslims really.

In response to all those who hate me because of some historical accident of coming from a Muslim background, I have but 2 words: Merry Christmas.

And the same to the rest of you!

And try not to forget what Christmas is really about. It is about God showing His Mercy on the world by sending His Messiah to teach us about Divine love and mercy. I hope and pray we can show mercy and love toward each other, regardless of faith.

The problem of Middle Eastern gangs is not the "Johnny come lately syndrome" due to Bush's war on terror.I can remember these thugs in George St Sydney walking 4 and 5 abreast, pushing people off the pavement in the early eighties.Also Freshwater Beach where they took over half the territory through rough,aggressive play and foul language.People just took their families and moved on.No police attended.

We have been putting up with it for a long time.Why can't the Muslim leaders put pressure on the Iemma Govt to act?They certainly won't listen to the Skips because we are too racist and live in the wrong electorates.

Isn't it interesting that the Iemma Govt will only act in Cronulla when the Locals finally decide to stand up for themselves?So it is alright for the Muslims to bash the Skips,but we'll throw you Anglos in gaol if you try to protect yourselves.Yes they can fine us and make a profit,but the crims have theirs neatly tucked away and it costs too much to put them in gaol anyway.

These crims know police numbers are low and will continue in the same vein in other locations since they will only get a reprimand from our judicial system if they get caught.

Law and order is rapidly breaking down in this state.

Irfan

I see a misunderstanding of Arab and Muslim but no hate.
I see bigotry and intolerance but no hate.
Most of all I see ignorance but no hate.

You could positively address that.

I too wish you a Merry Christmas, and the same to all others, especially to those with whom I disagree.

I don't believe in either the Christian god or the Muslim God. But, in true Aussie fashion I'll have 'a bob each way', just in case. I'd wish you a very merry conclusion to Ramadan, if it is appropriate. But in my ignorance I really don't know the sacred days and feasts your religion follows.

Ifran,
Celebrate this Christmas the coming of Messiah, as all wise men seek Jesus.
Qur'an 3: 43 - 51 [selected]: "And remember the messengers words to Mary. They said, "God has chosen you. He has made you pure and exalted you above womankind... God bids you rejoice in a Word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary. He shall be noble in this world and in the world to come, and shall be one of those who are favoured. He shall preach to men in his cradle and in the prime of manhood, and shall lead a righteous life. ... By God's will I shall heal the blind man and the leper, and raise the dead to life. ... I come to fulfil the Torah which preceded me and to make lawful for you some of the things you were forbidden."

We celebrate he is a word from God. We celebrate he is Messiah, noble and righteous in life, and a healer of the blind and leper and has raised the dead to life, and come to live the principles of the mind of God envisaged by the Torah and give us freedom from the diseases of sin . We celebrate he has given us freedom from the bondage of restrictive laws. Thank God he came! May our God give us wisdom in understanding His Word and revelation.
Blessings for this season of celebration.

Well I agree, Australia is and should be a secular state, where religion is but a lifestyle choice, no more. Religious tyranny, be it Catholic of Muslim, should not be accepted in our modern world.

That said, it cannot be denied that we are tribal by nature. Its part of having evolved as a social species. It means that we care about our tribe etc.

If Lebanese youths go nuts in Cronulla, as the news suggests, they
should not be amazed if Aussie youths thump them, thats not religious
its tribal. Evolutionary pscychology clearly shows that turning the other cheek is a dismal failure, despite what some of the godsquad say....

Muslims create their own problems, by wanting to be different. If they want special treatment in schools, special treatment at swimming pools etc, they should not be amazed if they are not accepted as part of the Aussie tribe. They should have lived here long enough to realise that the world will not end, if they go swimming like everyone else and join in the fun...

Wake up Australia. Cronulla is only the tip of the ice burgh, we have had enough of muslim gangs raping our women, attacking young boys, attacking anyone who is not muslims- as long as the muslims outnumber them. From now on, WE WON'T TAKE IT ANY MORE. Good on the boys at Cronulla, you made a statement. NO MORE, if you lebs wanna behave the way you have been getting away with UP TILL NOW, then you will suffer the consequences. So, start behaving responsibly and integrate- or get out to acountry more to your liking.

Irf,

I was disgusted by what I saw in Cronulla.

If groups of people set out to cause trouble, and are succesful, they should be sufficiently honourable to cop their lumps.

The lebanese gangs that caused the problem, ran and hid behind police when the folly of their actions was brought home to them.

THIS IS GUTLESS.

If this spreads now, it is not so much due to the average Australians intolerance of muslims, but more due to intolerance for bullying cowards. It is a dog eat dog world, and the craven kalebs are about to be et.

These groups have incurred the enemity of huge sections of our society, through their use of force and terror to intimidate. However it is now obvious that they run and hide when the shoe is on the other foot. This will result in enormous difficulty for muslims in Australia, it is now possibly to late for the muslim community to make a stand, and condemn the violence - because now they will experience it.

I do not condone the events at cronulla - but they were a predictable response to the muslims communities lack of respect for others - you may not now decry the unfairness of being subjected to the violence that results from your own lack of action.

Muslim bashing on these pages? hey hang on the failure of some to respect our right to live as we have is easy to find daily.
Very few Australians could in any way be blamed for feeling insulted by the actions of a few.
Politicaly corect fools may do as they wish but most have every right to think freely as they wish.

Dear Aaron... I'm so glad to see a Jewish person actually recognizing the truth of this issue... it is a reaction TO discrmination and bullying from Ethnic and tribal people who have done 2 things:

1/ Claimed part of Australia for themselves
2/ Attacked an ICON of everything it is to be Australian... lifesavers.

Then, they are blaming 'us' to quote:

Moot, 19, of Bankstown, said his friend Issa, 17, suffered a neck injury after being assaulted by numerous "Aussies".

"I am going to gather as many people as I can. I am going to send text messages," he said.

"This is the last day they're going to have the beach, 'cause from now on heads are going to roll and blood will spill because what they did to my friend ... that was a dog act."

I think that says it all. They brutalize, insult, harrass, bully, and discriminate, and when it comes back to haunt them.... "I'm gonna get my mates" etc.. well Jesus once said.

"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand?

Personally, I would prefer 'symbolic' gestures of national solidarity than violent drunken ones. Sad to say, that the rampaging mob was not exactly something to be proud of. I'd rather see them to a peaceful march down Telopea street Bankstown, than pick on a few happless lebeanese silly enough to goto Cronulla.

IRF (broken record) YUSUF... we don't hate you.. when will your thick head accept this ? We are passionate, patriotic, and in some cases prayerful. But if you think the actions of a few Lebs will go unchallenged by the broader Aussie society, you are in dreamland.

If you want a 'merry and peaceful' Christmas, do a piece on the "Failure of Politicians to see the writing on the wall and do something about it 2 yrs ago"
If they had, we would not be having this conversation now.
Blessings

Irfan - "Muslim voters are just as concerned about ensuring governments act to protect families, to ensure the rule of law and to allow business to operate in a free market economy."

Your responses to legitimate questions raised on the "Some will not integrate" thread suggest that you are not one of those voters.
- First you raise the issue by suggesting that the Cronulla incident was just bad tabloid jouranlism - a media beatup.
- Then you suggest that the gangs are really cristian not muslim but offer no proof.
- Then you move into name calling and the suggestion that the kind of issues indicated by the gangs are not part of the "real world". Anybody who questions you is determined to hate muslims etc.

Kind of makes a mockery of your article. Judging by your posts it seems that you are OK with "Skippy bashing" (physical or verbal), it's only muslim bashing that bothers you. You don't express outrage at the harassment of non-muslim women and girls by these gangs and the intimidation of male Skippy's in their attempts to pick fights. Every post I've seen from you on the issue suggests that you think the reported behaviour is a non issue. I still have not seen any condemnation of the acts of those thugs who bashed the reporter following the arrests of the suspected terrorists.

For the record I was disgusted by what I saw of the actions of the crowds in Sydney on the media late last night. Grabbing anybody you find of "middle eastern appearance" and bashing them for the actions of the gangs is dispicable, likewise the pelting of ambo's and others trying to do their job.

My preference as previously stated was for the muslim community to take the initiative and make a stand on the behaviour of these gangs. That apparently did not happen. In light of the crowd behaviour yesterday it may have been to late for that at the beach but not to late for other action.

R0bert

The undercurrent of violence so prominent in these posts and the events in NSW last week are such that I am compelled to drop the mask of anonymity.

These events have been called un Australian - they are very Australian indeed - they been carried out in some instances under the Australian flag - sadly. We did it to the Chinese in our colonial past and we did/do it to the indigenous population.

I have long rejected the implied agression on these pages dressed up in psuedo intellectualism and touting potted anthropological theories regarding inherent racial tendencies to violence and other absurd assumptions. I have tried to do so with a modicum of humour; it has never been that funny but now it is less so.

There will be those claiming a sense of prescience now that the slow burn of racism has found its expression in overt violence. Instead of recognising the tensions and seeking a solution too many have simply poured the fuel of ignorance and prejudice on the problem.

These issues are too important not to stand up and protest against those who fear the different and the diverse. It would not be a foolish question to ask who is next - who will we choose next to despise based on misunderstanding and lies?

This is not a question of multiculturalism or integration. It is a question of our capacity to adapt to change. Like it or not our community is comprised of countless peoples with diverse cultural aspirations and diverse outlooks on life. The differences are part of us where they beocme a problem is our failure not the fault of those who are different.

The cultural cringe is far from something limited to the arts and science it remains deeply rooted in our sense of identity - or lack there of - that so many of us lack the confidence in our own institutions, our own culture and our own capacity to stand side by side with that which is different and hold our own when challenged.

Kym Durance aka Sneekeepete

Please to meet you Kym. Long an admirer of your articles.

I am really disappointed at how swiftly people have attacked Irfan for speaking out - just because he posts something that is controversial (Christian Lebanese) it would appear that those who previously supported a reasoned approach to debate have jumped on the anti-Islam bandwagon and are holding all Muslims responsible for the race riots at Cronulla.

Are extremist Christians given a lot more lee-way than an understandibly irritable Muslim? The answer would appear to be YES.

I don't know if the Lebanese youth at Cronulla follow Christ, Mohamed or the Simpsons. I do know that the situation at Cronulla is about disenfranchised youth with both sides eager to antagonise the other.

Have placed pertinent post on Con George-Kotzabasis' rant at:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3938#23073

Sorry, R0bert, but it looks as though you only tolerated Irfan if he said all the "right things" according to you.

Disappointed but not surprised at fall-out from Cronulla riots. Just more hatred - no effort to work things out together.

Scout, clearly a point of disagreement here.

Irfan raised the idea of tabloid journalism in regard to the gang issue and when asked for explaination did not attempt to answer honest questions but rather tossed in the lebanese christian thing with no supporting discussion. When queried about that he started throwing insults around and attempted to trivialise the issue.

I think I've made it clear in the past that I don't want to take sides on the "muslim" issue (not sure how else to phrase that) but rather to see people treated fairly and so far in my view most of the unfair treatment has been dished out by the anti muslim lobby.

I hope that I have been upfront enough in opposing that group within the constraints of the post limits and a disinterest to get into flaming wars with the most unreasonable of the posters. I think I am asking the same of Irfan that I've asked of numerous anti-muslim posters when they have tossed in important unsubstantiated claims.

In my view Irfan's handling of this has been as biased and evasive as that of the anti-muslim lobby. If the gangs are genuinely from a christian lebanese background that is a significant factor in this discussion and is worth knowing about. At the moment the claim looks like an attempt to muddy the waters rather than an honest attempt to address the issue.

I really believe that where significant issues of ethnic/cultural crime ocurrs the most likely solution lies with their communities making a stand against the behaviour. If these gangs are from a muslim background we need muslim leaders speaking out against the gang bahaviours. If from a lebanese christain background then we need the leaders of that community to be at the front of the calls for this to end.

A heavy police presence and a bunch of vigilanties roaming the streets and beating up people of "middle eastern appearance" just adds to the tension. Any suggestions on how else to get this stopped without making it worse?

R0bert

When oh when, Boaz, will you get it into your head that your comments and observations are part of the problem, not part of the solution?

>>They brutalize, insult, harrass, bully, and discriminate, and when it comes back to haunt them.... "I'm gonna get my mates" etc.<<

Who are "they", Boaz? Do you not understand that this remark could equally well have been made by one of your white, christian friends? Did you in fact listen to them on the news last night - it was almost word for word the same.

I was told of the pending trouble on Friday evening, by an eleven-year-old from Bondi Junction, who advised me that "they're all sending text messages to each other to meet at Cronulla." How did he know, I wondered. "It's all around the school" he told me. Out of the mouths...

We - and by that I mean adults - set a bad example to kids by failing to abhor the "get them" mentality, in all its forms. Revenge is a very simple emotion, and as such is easily exploited by more intelligent people, who understand its power and use it to their own ends.

If we are to rise above the level of the pack animal, it will be through people with more smarts than the amoebae on display yesterday at Cronulla, accepting some of the responsibility that goes with the territory, and leading by example.

Trouble is, it suits our political masters to foment domestic terrorism. It is such a powerful vote-catcher.

The severe provocation of the muslim young men appears to be condoned by many.
The drunken response of Australian youth is not.
There is no doubt that Lebanese youth appear to be extremely aggressive, lawless and totally undisciplined. How are these young people brought up? Not as Australians it would seem.
It was a bad day for this nation when such immigrants were admitted.
It would be better if future would be migrants are screened to find out those who are unfit to become part of Australia.
The Australian youth are seen as drunken yobs but this reaction had to come. Maybe the Lebanese might learn a few lessons in how to behave in a civilised and decent manner.Or they may learn the hard way.

As a "half-wog, half-skip" I have a few things to say about Cronulla:

1) Everybody needs to take personal responsibility for what they've done wrong.
-The gangs of Middle Eastern appearance who tried to intimidate and alienate themselves from other Australians in Cronulla are in the wrong.
-The 5000+ "Aussies" who tried to hide their racism behind a false show of "patriotism" are in the wrong.
-The people of Middle Eastern appearance who "retaliated" in Maroubra; those who originally bashed the Cronulla lifesavers; and those who bashed the cameraman in Melbourne are in the wrong.

2) All people who were born in/have chosen to move to Australia are Australians. Deal with it. If you don't like it, move, I don't care what your ethnicity is (Middle Eastern, Anglo-Saxon, whatever). This is not a society where people groups should be at war with one another. There is only one Australia and it incorporates people from all over the world. Anglo-Saxons are no more "Aussie" than those with Lebanese origin, and should not be referred to as such. "Understanding" means you respect other people regardless of their genetic make-up or personal beliefs, and it is a value we hold dear in Australia.

I'm of the opinion that Australians will give a fair go to anyone who is willing to be Australian. Being Australian means that your loyalty is to Australia first.

My post was in response to the continued unwillingness of the media to understand what drives mob behaviour, as seen in Cronulla.

1.It is impossible to have 5,000+ people attend, if there is not a serious problem (real or perceived).

2.The initial demonstration was a response to continued intimindation, assault, and threats of sexual assault, by recognised gangs - which proudly proclaim their lebanese heritage.

3.The actions of these gangs has never been seriously attacked by the Lebanese community leaders, in fact they decry all responsibility for their actions and make no attempt to take them to task.

4.I do not condone the mob violence, but I do understand from whence it comes.

5.The Lebanese (& Other community leaders) have made no attempt to suggest that they accept what caused the anger, they simply are upset that it happened. (They also made no attempt to prevent or condemn the retaliation from within their own community).

6.The boilover that occurred yesterday was inevitable - if people feel that they can be attacked by mobs - with impunity - they will seek to attack the mob.

7.It is called solidarity and has been part of the 'Australian Way' since the rum rebellion.

8.The fact that the retaliatory strike last night was carried out by armed youths - will result in armed response.

Either the various communities respond approprately by condemning the actions of those within their comunity - or the inevitable cycle of violence will result in the escalation of what happened yesterday.

sneekeepete,
Are you saying the violence was initiated by Aussie males? I do not condone violence as an answer to the long term problem. The hostility evolved from years of Muslim males spewing vile and lewed comments and threatening rape of young girls on the beach, even as young as 10 year old children.

The local residents have had enough when young lifesavers were attacked. For years young men in hotted up cars with slogans painted on them "Leb power" have introduced the the racist basis. Racismdid not come from Aussie lifesavers but from problem Lebs. Australians are a tolerant people, except drunk power hungry youth.

"Quote, "These events have been called un Australian - they are very Australian indeed - they been carried out in some instances under the Australian flag - sadly. We did it to the Chinese in our colonial past and we did/do it to the indigenous population."

Scout,
Check the day and time of day and any sincere Christian youth should have been at Church, certainly not drunk on Cronulla beach.

Quote, "I don't know if the Lebanese youth at Cronulla follow Christ, Mohamed or the Simpsons. I do know that the situation at Cronulla is about disenfranchised youth with both sides eager to antagonise the other."

Yusaf, i didn't see your artilce about anti-lifeguarg bashing should not be tolerated....

or the articles about...

gang rape

drive by shootings

anti-social behaviour, abuse etc

all commited against Australians by Lebanese Muslims...

with a name like Yusuf, i can see why you don'/t care about these things, you only care about the retributuion that come your way. you may as well write an article about how bad the judge was for sentencing a murder...

yusuf, its not a race riot, i dont care what colour skin you have, im white, my wife4 is asian, my best firend is black, all didffernt races...

but your culture is so abhornet and in conflit with our society/

my ancestors built this country, and just because your mother gave birht to you in my house, deosnt mean i have to transfer the deed to the property to you, the house is still mine, the streets are still mine, the society and culture are still mine, and the country is still mine. you have no right, it is Australia, assimilate and get along, stop the 'soft terror' and intimidation, or get ready for a holocaust, cauyse yopu are rapiong and harassing and intimidating and hating and disrespecting, everyone else form many colours have come and been aussies with a unique culture.

Racism is always brought up when events like this happen...rightly so. But the underlying cause?

Read this as MAYBE one cause.

http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=581

Hi
The cronulla riots indicate a growing trend among australians of all backgrounds to be getting sick of abuse predominantly from australians with a lebanese background. I would also like to say that i grew up in the middle east but am of anglo saxon background. I would add that the arabic culture that I lived in was extremely accpeting of western culture. The problem in Australia is that lebanese minorities have been abusing there rights. I feel that these people feel that they have a right to 'inflict' there culture upon Australia and that they should adhere to there religon and culture this predominantly being through girls having to cover up, not wear make up etc. Now this to me is too much you cannot possibly come to a western country especially one such as Australia and expect girls to cover up. If Muslim women wish to cover themselves then theres no problem with that. If Australian people were forcing muslims to adopt christian values then obviously it wouldnt be acceptable. Australian people accept and in many cases embrace muslim culture. I remember during ramadan in the middle east it would be common courtesy not to eat or drink in public it was a very easy and simple way of showing respect. So why again i ask would muslim people of predominantly lebanese backgrounds come here and not expect to have to show the same respect. I am strongly against violence of any form but i do see why the riots in cronulla occurred. If anglo saxon people went to Lebanon or any muslim country and began to abuse the muslim society there would be outrage and rightly so. So why are Lebanese muslims so shocked and upset when there own people come to a country and begin abusing there rights. As to the issues of gang violence and assault by people of Lebanese backgrounds There is no excuse. Lebanese community leaders should use cronulla as a lesson for young male Lebanese that there will be consequences to there actions and that they should start respecting the Australian culture

The Aussies at Cronulla didn't just decide on the spur of the moment to hate the Lebanese. It took years of abuse by the Lebanese with the final straw being the bashing up of life guards. Would any fair dinkum Australian even think of bashing up an icon? As for the bleeding hearts that call the young whites of Cronulla thugs,at least they protested in daylight and not undercover of the night. Are the lefties still glad we got rid of the White Australia Policy. I for one am proud that the youth of Cronulla are standing up for their rights.

No Philo I am not saying that Australian youths initiated the riots: I am in no position to say that. Equally I am in no position to say that the posturing of Lebanese (or any one else) youths was what instigated their response - These event are far beyond the school yard "he started it" type of allegation. Did the reprehensible behaviour you describe from supposedly Muslim youth just emerge from the out of the blue? - there are some here who will say of course; I dont exceptt that.

I did say when it comes to attacks on minorities we have form - we went the Chinese at Clunes in 1873-74, we attacked Southern Europeans at Kalgoolie in 1919 and 1934 - while industrial in nature there were strong racist over tones in each instance. And we've done a job on the aborigines over time. There were/are strong rascist over tones in Sydney this week.

Kym D

They say that Anti-Muslim is only something for idiots! One no longer hears this lie in Australia. But one still reads it in the Islamic press abroad, and Muslims whisper it here and perhaps some Multiculturalists lackeys still think that. We smile in response, and note that the Muslim have never produced a single creative man, but that all great men in every country have been implacable opponents of the Muslim. Some "intellectuals" may be distressed when one doubts their understanding, but we will follow the battle cry against Islam that all of the great men of our past have made!

The above post is part of a speech by Nazi's in 1936 about Jews all I've done is replace Jew with Muslim scary hey.

Umm..how..do..I..explain..my..view??..well..lets..start..with..I'm asshamed to call myself "Australian" after all this "C-R-A-P" thats been happening in Cronulla and arround Sydney (mind you I have grown up on the sydney beachs) and I am discussed with how these ... these.. ANIMALS behaved (The Animals I am Refering to are the so called "Australians" ) at the end of the day I CANNOT understand why the human race has to segragate groups ie. Arabs, Blonds, Asians, Wogs, ..and..so..on...and EVER one of these "Clicks" has a negitive connentation. Why can't it be I'm Human and your animal so were dominate to other animals and not each other? Why is that so hard to do? The word Patriotism causes more HATE and more Racism. Is is so hard to not care about someones apparance or herritage, rather we care about our future and the future of our children? Is it so much to ask that people wont put themselves first and that we consider others. When those.... Animals .... deceided that they riot arround crunulla do you think they even gave a "rats" about anybody else but themselves.! cause if they did, Firstly they wouldn't have done it at that time of night when people are asleep, secondly it wouldn't have been abusive so innocent people wouldn't had ben affected. and not lastly but 3rdly the views pushed out by the minority of australia the rest of INNOCENT Australians will be attack. much like what happend to muslims after sep 11!. I have been discusded with peoples behaviour in the past but vilionce begets vilionce.
Unfortunally after trying to figure out what I as in individuall can do about these situation. I realised no ONE person can do anything, you need those People that want peace to inform the public that it isn't right what these... "holligans" are doing.
and secondly we need to Re-Educate The Australian Youth and young adults. and thirdly (and most deffinalty, not lastly....proberbly would be a good idea to do this FIRST) GET JOHN HAWARD OUT OF GOVERMENT WE DO NOT NEED TO MAKE AUSTRALIA ANOTHER STATE OF AMERICA!!

Irfan,
Thank you for your well written and reasonable article.
For years I have staunchly maintained that Australia is no more racist than any other country, I can do so no longer. To my intense misery, I have to accept that there is something very nasty and dark in the Australian culture. I watched the footage of those Australians wrapped in the flag on Sunday, their faces contorted by hate and their appalling mob behaviour and I despaired. My daughters burst into tears as they watched the two young men being attacked by the screeching mob on the train, saved only by the extraordinary courage of one police officer with a baton. To the posters on this thread who have attempted to minimise or justify the behaviour of these young men, I think you need to do some really, really hard thinking about what sort of a person you want to be and what sort of country you want to be part of.
Sure, some individual young men from Lebanon may have behaved badly, just as some individual young men from Cronulla also behaved badly. Individuals need to be judged as individuals, whatever their background. The young men (and girl) attacked on Sunday have probably done nothing wrong at all except be born to Lebanese (or maybe just Lebanese looking) parents, but they risked serious injury or death at the hands of a baying, self righteous mob. There is no justification for this behaviour, none. As Ghandi said "An eye for an eye just makes the whole world blind."
Text messages continue to do the rounds on both sides. My daughter went on a date with a very nice young man of Lebanese extraction last night and he received a message. His response was to say how stupid it all was and how nothing on earth would get him near the place. An Anglo boy she went to school with received a similar message from the other side. He was at the riot on Sunday and intends to go again, Which boy would you rather your daughter dated?

How fair dinkum are we here? I dislike raceism in any form, includeing the growing minority raceism against the majority, raceism is always evil.
I Aussie born and bread, fear for my country as minoritys fight to undermine our way of life.
And can not find myself defending that minority within a minority who are acting in a raceist fashion.
And are we blind? this dreadfull weekend ahead will not only be about Australian youth miss behaveing nore was last weekend.

Kenny

We don't follow the Nueremburg laws here. However we do have some people here that follow a little book called the koran - and they follow it too seriously, which has verses similar to what you quoted.

Some people, and I think Ali Sina at www.faithfreedom.org is one of them replace 'infidel' with 'muslim' in koranic verses to show what pile of hate filled twaddle it is.