Boohoo, another muslim whinging about how hard life is. What about the time when Sydney women could walk alone without the threat of a Muslim gang, gang raping them. Or young Australian men can walk alone without the fear of being shot dead for being white.

Bashir,
A simply thankyou for enlightening us to the virtue of your religion, as practices in it’s purest form. Between you, Waleed, Ifran, Shakira and the other moderates out there, perhaps there is hope for this fractured, paranoid world yet…

Bashir, thanks. Kind of reminds me of some of the writing Kim Stanley Robinson has done about about Islam in some of his fictional works.

hoppa, did you actually read the article?

I didn't notice any whining about the plight of muslims in australia but rather a celebration of aspects of Bashir's childhood and an expression of concern about the impact of muslim extremism on that cleaner purer form of islam. Some of the same kind of concerns the rest of us have about extremists of any form impacting on our lives and freedom and on the future our children have to look forward to.

One of my goals as a parent is to share some of the good stuff from my growing up with my son as he grows. The picture will be very different for him than my experience but I'm kind of hoping that some of my values are seen as worth picking up as he puts together his own world view. Seems fair for Bashir to want something similar and I appreciated reading what he wrote on the topic even if the things I want to share with my some are very different.

R0bert

I sympathise with you Bashir and welcome you to islam 101 - what you have enjoyed in your childhood is profanity according to true islam, a mixture of tribal animism and folk islam is simply not acceptable. The events that followed 911 in 'islamland' are a revival and a call to unification and purification of islam "back to the book". We see it everywhere in the world from defiantly wearing the hijab to riots, rape, cry for attention, political infiltration... Islam is about world domination my friend - it's on a mission from Allah (or should we say God as it is often used for propaganda) to propagate and correct the world from other beliefs. Islam is a complete political system self sufficient that cannot exist under or next to any other regime. It's either islam or nothing. So get used to it, wipe your eyes and prepare your children for the future.

Isn't it up Muslims to say to these miserable faith floggers......get lost!
Your article is written about a time of innocence,a bit like we had in this country before the colonisation of Islam. Ruined in the same manner by the same people.
Stand up the bullies, make them eat their warped zealotry but do not let them walk on you.
That is no peaceful religion , it is a religion of hate and dominance, fit only to be demolished.

"Only a man who doesn't know the menace of a lion will try to rescue a sheep from its mouth".
Wise words expressing a sentiment applicable across a wide spectrum: appropriate to society whether it is within the one third of humanity devoted to Islam, Christianity, and their predecessor - Judaism; or to humanity's two thirds which are heathen.
They are just as current today.
Who dares to wrest society from consumerism? Consumerism wedded to economic growth at a preferred four per cent per annum and, predatory as a lion, upon its own environment?
Who dares to step between religious determinism for numbers of its own to increase, at a time when modernity has brought about increased fertility while lessening death rates as never before?
The sad decline of society described in the article would be from a number of fundamentalism inspired causes. Among them is the pressure upon it from an approximate doubling of Somalia's population between the times of father and son. And the forecast is for a continued doubling in about the same interval of time.
In neighbouring Ethiopia, Haille Selassie adopted the title "Lion of Judah"; but those concerned with population increase in east Africa face the lion of religious authority, of whatever persuasion, in trying to rescue ever-more numerous society from its jaws.

This article raises a question as to why the Somalis allowed their version of Islam to be hijacked by fundamentalists.

Do the 99% of Muslims claiming to be ‘moderates’ fear the 1%?

Fear seems to play a significant role in Islam. Muslims don’t seem to fear their perceived enemy, the West. This lack of fear has been witnessed in illegal immigrants: their attacks against officials, arson committed on detention centres, the hijacking of Tampa, to name a few.

What they do seem to fear, even those who came here legally and others who were born here, are the Qu’ran, which they are reportedly not permitted to interpret, and the imams. They fear their own religion and its leaders.

They give cursory support to anti-terrorist laws, and then quickly attempt to take the heat off their real enemies by bringing up the old red herring about mythical mobs of non-Muslims who will attack them just because they are Muslims.

And, they cannot answer the really hard questions because this means interpreting and criticizing the Qu’ran, which is offensive to Allah.

Christians went through a period of ignorance, fear and superstition, and overcame it with education and democracy which tore them from the clutches of illiterate priests and firebrands and myths. Unfortunately, it seems that Islam and its adherents have a millennia or two of catching up to do.

Nice? story but that is not today's dismal,dark,dreary,suicide-loving, misygnonistic pagan islam.
A religion which has a terrorist training handbook called the koran. A religion where the adherents are told it is ok to lie to unbelievers - that's all non moslems.
A religion which is told through it's tragic 'comic book' that it's ok to kill unbelievers and that there is a reward for doing so.
A religion which has an X-rated "paradise?"[for males only of course though the females can look] that includes perpetual female virgins and untouched lovely boys for all the dirty male perverts.
A religion in which the clownish, uneducated,scarcely sane followers commit murderous siucide to attain entrance to this simple, unproved paradise.
Nice story but before the islamics entered we had a far better, fairer and more united nation here in Australia. numbat

Bashir

Thank you for your article. I really enjoyed reading it and I found it very interesting. I almost felt as if I was there. Your demonstrated love for your Son was quite overwhleming. I do hope he reads it.

Robert, I really enjoyed your reply to Bashir.

Bashir, since last Thursday I have been visiting the islamicSydney web site searching for my niece. The assistance I have recieved from posters to that site has been outstanding. One of your fellow Muslims found her on a web site. I am very grateful.

Cheers
Kay

A muslim waxes lyrical about a simpler time. the joy and enjoyment of life, before the advent of fanaticism, racism and xenophobes. Some posters ask why the majority is held in sway, or hijacked by the minority.

it appears however that the remainder have taken yet another opportunity to demonstrate their own fanaticism, racism and xenophobia. Perhaps it is not just the muslims with the problem.

Numbat
So according to you moslems are all dreary, women-hating, suicide-loving, lying, terrorists, perverts & clowns. If I were to say that all Anglo-saxons are like this I would be a racist. If I were to say that women are all like that I would be a sexist. So what is the difference between a bigot saying this sort of tripe about a group he or she hates & your serving Hmmm?
I'd like to ask a question. Nothing complicated just a passing query. How many moslems do you actually know? Since you're saying that ALL Moslems are liars, etc, then it follows that you've met every single one or at least the majority in order to make such a sweeping statement. Either that or those statements are merely an example of prejudice. Your choice numbat. I await your answer.

Bashir,
what you described could easily have been my own extended family 'tribal' childhood around Christmas time. Its a truly hearwarming and beautiful time.
As I was reading I thought I'd died and gone to paradise... then reality jerked me back.

A couple of points.

Ask yourself this. If one of the young men, had been away at Uni and returned to announce "Mum dad.. tribe.. I know this is going to be difficult to hear, but ...I've become Christian" Now, would that same 'harmony' be happening ? or.. if some missionaries arrived and requested to be allowed to share the Gospel of Christ, and the elders/chief agreed 'once only' and then, a few of the hearers decided to embrace Christ as Savior and Lord. Would the same happiness and harmony exist ?

Now, try to put yourself in our cultural situation here. And apply those things in reverse, asking the same questions.

But back to Somalia. If one accepted the picture you painted as universal over there, a rude shock would await. I'm wondering how you relate your childhood joy to the clan warfare, the taking of slaves and territory, the brutality of some clans towards those of 'lower' esteem or perceived peck order....

Perhaps your tribe or clan were the 'victorious' or the 'majority' ones.. who didn't suffer at the hands of anyone. But knowing what I do about Somalia's ethnic make up, and history, I would shudder at the thought of living under such threats.

I tend to give some weight to Coach's point about 'bringing them back to the book' and cultural nominal Islam at the local village level.

Nevertheless, what you describe is truly a beautiful human situation, though not limited to Islamic traditions alone.

Hopefully more of us will re-capture that special sense of family, community and 'tribe' within our own rapidly decaying culture, and restore a level of Godliness across the board at the individual, family and communal level

Rather than see OLO clogged up with encomiums aimed at Islam could we see a few topics explaining the inner workings of:

Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, Taoism, Sikhism, Foursquare Pentacostals, Seventh Day Adventists, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Bahá'í, Juche, Cao Dai, Tenrikyo, Neo-Paganism, Rastafarianism and Scientology. Did I omit any religious club?

Leigh is right. Why don't Muslim's consider what is happening? Why do the the Islamic radicals always win?

Easy. Theirs is the pure, true Islam. They have the Quran and hadiths on their side. The radicals want to do what their great prophet did.

When a 'radical' and a 'moderate' debate, the radical wins. So, as I have said, the radical Islamist kills and the moderate makes excuses, saying that is not the "real" Islam.

You will notice that Bashir Goth does not try to understand the problem he complains about, nor does he really have any idea now to change things.

That, in a nut shell, is why you cannot count on any Muslim to standup for your rights and liberties. They cannot, or better, will not acknowledge the hate and violence in their religion.

What we must do is be honest, and tell them the things they don't want to hear - that Mohammed was a murder, slaver, torturer and so on, and that the teachings in their 'holy' writings are offensive to non-Muslims. As some of you readers may know, I have tried time and again to get Muslims to admit the obvious. They are in denial. They are like the zombies from "Night of the Living Dead" when you point out passages containing hate and evil deeds that are in the Quran and hadiths. They look at you and pretend you can't read or as if the words don't mean what they say (Well, except for FH, who chooses to deny the hadiths - some of them, at least when not quoting from them).

Kactuz Kid - telling it like it is since when dirt was young...

Sage,

There is one God that revealed himself to us as a father through Jesus (the Christ) some two thousands years ago. Christianity is a relationship not a religion, as disciples of Jesus we are part of God's family.

We are called to one hope: one church, one Holy Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all believers. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

But wo/man in their refusal to accept these facts have been obsessed with creating systems were they can find refuge and comfort away from the truth.
Yes you haven't even scratched the surface of naming the many thousands of man-made (and woman) religious clubs and sects.

However the reason why we are so concerned about islam in particular, is their ideology of propagation - jihad for instance is the struggle to use whatever means possible, peaceful, lawful or otherwise, to control the world and bring (it) back to the seventh century islam under their god allah and their religious system.

Maybe it's time for people like yourdelf to avail themselves of a copy of the koran and read a few pages to understand what we mean.

At the end of the day it is not who is right but what is right. A concept that has eroded from today's vocabulary to make room for ideas like tolerance, pluralism, freedom of expression, multiculturalism, etc... if one dares to stand for the truth, they are labelled bigots and narrow minded.

Coach
Quote "There is one God that revealed himself to us as a father through Jesus (the Christ) some two thousands years ago." Of course you can provide proof that God exists, Jesus exists & that God has only ever spoken through Jesus & NO ONE ELSE. NOT evidence, but 100% proof beyond a shadow of a doubt. If you cannot provide such proof then the most you could claim logically is that you believe the above not that it is so.
Quote "Christianity is a relationship not a religion, as disciples of Jesus we are part of God's family." Sorry the dictionary defines religion as "Recognition of a supernatual power due worship, reverance & obedience" Sounds like it applies to Christianity to me. It follows that Christianity IS a religion since the dictionary definition fits it as well.

bosk: Two moslem friends but do I fully trust these friends unfortunately the answer is of course no!
Most people can be stirred up to commit violence to a lesser or greater degree moreso the islamics, including my friends.
bosk I do not hate islam as such, but! a bloke would have to be an utter twit not to see islam as it is.
A bloke would have to be a total ding-a-ling and have no care for his country not to study this pagan religion. I have done that as well as reading newspapers and listening to radio/TV news.
As for the statements I made about pagan islam which offended you, you take me to task for saying them, like a good politically correct person.
Now prove me wrong in any of those statements.
Tell me when did you hear a moderate group of islamists really, I mean really condemn moslem barbarity.
A couple may have done so yet in the koran moslems are told it is ok to lie to unbelievers, that's you and I bosk - so?
Look at any moslem nation bosk, do you see freedom. Do you see hindu temples, Christian churches, perhaps in Indonesia and Malaysia but there they are regularly bombed.
When was the last time two moslem school girls were decapitated in Oz by a group of Christians?
Remember the pagan islamics in Oz read the same koran terrorist manual and listen to the same hate-filled bile that is spewed from many of their leaders.
Bosk please for your own good get your PC blinkers off, read about pagan islam and its aims ,no don't hate them but know them! numbat

Boaz, you said:
Ask yourself this. If one of the young men, had been away at Uni and returned to announce "Mum dad.. tribe.. I know this is going to be difficult to hear, but ...I've become Christian" Now, would that same 'harmony' be happening ?

Boaz, if your son or daughter decided to convert to Islam, or Judaism, or reject religion and become an atheist, would you be thrilled to hear they had rejected your teachings and beliefs? I suspect not. Consider your own reactions in a similar siutation before trying to cast aspertions on others.

I enjoyed this article very much, even with the very rose-coloured glasses of time and distance which were clearly being used. It almost made me want to travel to Somalia and feast at Eid!

Kaktuz,

“When a 'radical' and a 'moderate' debate, the radical wins. So, as I have said, the radical Islamist kills and the moderate make excuses, saying that is not the "real" Islam.”

Nothing is further from the truth; a moderate Muslim always wins the debate that’s why the radical a) reverts to violence b) the first victim is other Muslims.

That’s why WE KNOW that Islamist terrorism has nothing to do with Islam not because we are making excuse.

For the sake of the 350 words limit, I published an article on my blog: www.musliminsight.blogspot.com

Great article Bashir..

modern moderates are unnoticed because they haven’t attempted to stop, islamic terrorism or social bullying by islam to the West. They seem to spend all their time shoving the beauty of islam down our necks when they could be addressing decent prison sentences for the Bali terrorists or the vilification case in Vic, it would have been nice to see the islamic community use their power to respect free speech in my country not squash it. So to believe their sincerity is foolish. The muslim clerics/spokespeople who reside in Australia … yes I think they are lying, so do most Aussies. Kadous touts himself as moderate:

Dr M Waleed Kadous October 17, 2005 Nine’s Sunday program:

“I’m sure that there are some in the community who are involved in terrorism, but it is important not to exaggerate either the threat or the number. I would — actually, can I retract that. Let me just think of a way to phrase that better.
If they do exist — and I’m not sure that they do exist — we only have ASIO’s word to say that.”
http://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/cover_stories/transcript_1891.asp

To my mind both these comments from Waleed read very differently, which are we to believe HE believes? No big problem or ASIO conspiracy… both are insane anyway.

I think islamists need to rethink their approach, by understanding and curtailing to freedom of religion for a start. It can be “troublesome” to say the least to leave islam, many muslims don’t for this reason, for the islamic councils to create an apostasy protection org would be a good beginning.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali ex-Muslim and critic of Islam, Salman Rushdie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#Islam

The Muslim/s who helped with the recent terror raids SHOULD be able to be commended dont you agree?
The PC assumption-lie that every cultures standards-psychology will be accepted by the Western host is a cruel, deluded and selfish PC hoax for potential citizens and Australians. The slice of opinion here in this forum illustrates this point quiet well.

Fello Human please dont tell me fatwa are publicitys stunts again.. thats nuts

bosk,
I am really sorry you feel that way about Christianity - maybe if you go back and read again the second paragraph of my post it will be clear to you why you do not understand. See God not only is our father, He also lives in us. He is not a far away somewhere in the sky as most other religious concepts of a god.
Therefore I repeat that being a follower of Jesus is a relationship to The Father - unless you care to show me where it says that Jesus came to start a new religion on earth.
Nice try about trying to add words to my text: of course God revealed Himself through the ages he used people, events, nature and other prophets. However Jesus is the messiah that was always to come - the complete revelation of God: "if you know me you know my father who sent me" he said.
To have a new revelation after Jesus just doesn't add up don't you think? Unless you want to call God a deceiver.

Laurie
'Boaz, if your son or daughter decided to convert to Islam, or Judaism, or reject religion and become an atheist, would you be thrilled to hear they had rejected your teachings and beliefs? I suspect not. Consider your own reactions in a similar siutation before trying to cast aspertions on others.'

You've misread Davids post. The point he was trying to make was:

"Now, try to put yourself in our cultural situation here. And apply those things in reverse, asking the same questions."

Exactly what you said. He was trying to create empathy to our side of the story.

Numbat,

A couple may have done so yet in the koran moslems are told it is ok to lie to unbelievers, that's you and I bosk - so?

FH: really, where in the Quran does it say that?

Look at any Moslem nation bosk, do you see freedom. Do you see hindu temples, Christian churches, perhaps in Indonesia and Malaysia but there they are regularly bombed.

FH: you need to travel to Muslim countries for a change: Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey, Morroco, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan have Christian population and churches from the last 20 centuries. Christmas and Easter are public holidays in some Muslim countries.

When was the last time two moslem school girls were decapitated in Oz by a group of Christians?

FH: Not in Australia, but Bosnia 1996, Orthodox Christians (Lead by an Orthodox Priest) killed 8,000 Muslim women and children, cut off two fingers of each hand (babies were not spared) so they meet Jesus with “Trinity” fingers. I have not seen any condemnation and the Pope said : “we are all Christians”, should I assume he included those criminals as well?

Boaz,

Misleading post since you are mixing religion with tribal culture on the conversion thing.

You know what will happen to a Christian in they would like to convert, or do I need to spell it out? In Egypt, Jordan and Syria, they are likely to be placed 'under a church arrest' for two weeks (with blessing of the lcoal police) until their faith gets restored or keep their religion but change their name and identity for fear on their life by other Christians. A Christian marrying a Muslim in upper Egypt or Sudan is a death sentence (a boycott if moderate) carried out by her family.

coach, my post was a crude attempt at making a burlesque of all the Islamcentric posts starting to appear.

As a former altar boy (blessed with enough speed to avoid the clutches of Father Timothy) there isn't much you can tell me about Christianity. I'm sure your G*d will show you how to defeat Islam so there is no need to be concerned. As for me I'm still trying to figure out how a guy of average weight could walk on water. And what about the virgin birth. I'm supposed to believe that tosh.

And I am familiar with the Qur'an.

Laurie... please refer to Justins accurate understanding of my rather sympathetic and benign purpose. He wistfully longs for the ‘good old days’ of the village. We also do. But his and ours may not be compatable.

I was simply showing that the piccy Bashir was painting, while beautiful, is not the wider picture of real life.

FYI, there was a little girl in Malaysia, met her when she was just 10. Was brought to our recording studio by others from her tribe (Kadazan) and they told me this kid can sing reallllly well! I looked at her. Dressed in rags, dirty face, no shoes, straggly hair, and thought “yeah, sure”...but gave her a go. By the time she had finished a few bars there was hardly a dry eye in the studio (and their were lots of eyes). We invested a lotttt of time and effort in developing her naturally angelic voice. People were moved wherever they heard her in Malaysia. We took her on tour. On the last time prior to us returning back to Australia, my wife and I were at a central village, and she was quite upset that we were going, she insisted to her parents on sleeping beside us. She was like a second daughter. Later, she came to Australia, to Sydney Uni, (she is a very bright girl) after being fast-tracked by the Malaysian government. She spoke of vigorous involvement in Student Christian actiivities. Went back to Sabah, and guess what ? married a Muslim !

To say I was shocked and saddened would be an understatement of the century. But to suggest I have anything but enduring love and affection for her and lift her before the Lord in prayer would be to totally misunderstand what it means to have a relationship with Christ, as you appear to do.

Do you remember the story Jesus told of the lost sheep ? The shepherd lovingly searched everywhere for it.

F.H. Not trying to mislead, just making a point about how such an idylic picture is not the full story. Thanx for the reminder though.

Bashir Goth - thank you for creating a thing of beauty, which, for a little while transported me above all the dross and drivel which passes for debate by the usual culprits on OLO.

I am sure with your poetic talents that you will be able to pass on something of the spirit of your celebrations to your son. And hopefully he will pass on these sentiments to his children.

Fundamentalism of all religious persuasions will eventually burn it self - dogma by its nature is self-destructive.

Peace to all.

Meredith,

I am not saying fatwa is a publicity stunt I am saying the weight and emphasis of the word fatwa is the stunt.

Fatwa, as seen by muslims is an opinion by a mere mortal that is not relevant to faith.
It is not a ‘must carry out papal creed’. There are lots of fatwas to ban smoking and yet 3 or 4 of every 5 Muslims do smoke.

Do you see the difference?

Next posting on my blog will be related to that:

www.musliminsight.blogspot.com

Scout,

“Fundamentalism of all religious persuasions will eventually burn it self - dogma by its nature is self-destructive”

Agree,

Utopia always missed an important part: the hate island.
It is surrounded by sharks and visas are only granted to war mongers and promoters of hate (there is probably a million or so in the world). Unlike Tom Hanks movie, there are no trees or fresh water but one bottle of water and a loaf of bread. No post office and all mail coming from Hate Island must be stamped with RTS.

Good post F-H.

Every time any Muslim asks an Imam or Shaykh a question they give a "fatwa". It is just an Islamic legal opinion, generally non-binding in nature - especially in the Western context.

I remember seeing the interview with the Nigerian christian woman wrote the article about Muhammad there, that eventually led to riots. She too was talking about having a "fatwa" against her. Afterwards, there was a live chat online at the website and I joined in.

I asked her "How do you feel knowing that many of the Muslim scholars in Nigeria actually gave Fatwa saying that you shoud not be killed?" That "Specifically that they gave 'fatwa' to disregard the crazed rantings of extremist lunatics there calling for your death, and protecting your rights."

She, of course, didn't reply to my questions and instead carried on with all the self-congratulatory stuff there.

FH

I commented:

“I think islamists need to rethink their approach, by understanding and curtailing to freedom of religion for a start. It can be “troublesome” to say the least to leave islam, many muslims don’t for this reason, for the islamic councils to create an apostasy protection org would be a good beginning.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali ex-Muslim and critic of Islam, labelled an apostate by the assasinated film director Theo van Gogh with whom she colloborated in making the film Submission
Salman Rushdie Accused of being an apostate of Islam by Ruhollah Khomeini due to the publication of his book The Satanic Verses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#Islam
The Muslim/s who helped with the recent terror raids should be able to be commended, as just being vocal is useless from spokespeople of a religion whom is terrifying the westeen world.”
Posted by meredith, Saturday, 19 November 2005 3:41:04 PM
You resonded:

"I have no comments on 'fatwa fame writers' like Rushdie, Manji and others. The fatwa is usually a markting tool to boost their sale. they are all alive and well with 20 y.o. fatwas."
Posted by Fellow_Human, Saturday, 19 November 2005 4:27:44 PM
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3844

Yes. I know what pointing you are FH and it's garbage. Stop mincing words will you. We both know it’s evasive to take the conversation from murdered or threatened apostates to “smoking cigarettes”.
The difference between smoking and death threats/dead people is vast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_%28film_director%29

Then again be yourself, its educational for Australians to see a “moderate” in action

What a beautiful, evocative piece of prose! I recommend people following the link to read the whole piece. Life has changed for all of us in the last forty years, but none so much as those living traditional lives now being swamped by globalisation, war, politics and famine. (Excuse four cliches in one breath)

Meredith,

First, to say that apostasy is the reason why Muslims don't change thei religion is absolute non-sense, many Muslims go to other religions or no-religion into their own communities were I lived and grew up for example. There was an Egyptian communist political movement since the 60s. I lived in a north african Muslim country.

Second, the apostasy statement has no proof or support in the Quran.
There in no compulsion in religion in many parts of the Quran and belief is a choice, the apostasy have a supporting hadith that came 300 years after Mohamed (PBUH) died.

Islam is probably the simplest form of religion for the mind to digest, that is why (in my personal view) it is the fastest growing.

See www.musliminsight.blogspot.com under ‘theology made simple.

Peace,

“FH: Not in Australia, but Bosnia 1996, Orthodox Christians (Lead by an Orthodox Priest) killed 8,000 Muslim women and children, cut off two fingers of each hand (babies were not spared) so they meet Jesus with “Trinity” fingers. I have not seen any condemnation and the Pope said : “we are all Christians”, should I assume he included those criminals as well?”
Posted by Fellow_Human, Tuesday, 22 November 2005 4:16:49 PM

Fellow human,

Which particular atrocity are you referring to. I have never heard of 8000 people having their fingers removed so as to mock their religious sensibilities. Please provide details as I am truly shocked and wish to read about it. The name of the priest or the atrocity would be useful.

As for the condemnation that was so obviously lacking, I would have thought the US/NATO bombing raids and troops would seem fairly unequivocal, don't you. Of course islamic nations are hardly known for stepping in to save Christians or other religionists, especially if the perpetrators are fellow muslims.

I am sure that the papal quote is out of context. It is a bit hard to believe that John Paul would have said that in reference to such a heinous war crime. Perhaps you would like to elaborate so that it can be checked for accuracy.

Sage,
Well if your familiarity with the qur'an is the same as your anorectic view of christianity I have one word for you: fool.

And the insults are flying thick and fast.

A beautiful, poignant piece by Bashir is threatened with the usual devolution into religious squabbling.

The point of Bashir's article is similar to that of Shakira's - that Muslims are under threat by extremists.

And what is happening? Just more of the same religion bashing by Christian fundies.

Where is the comradeship? Where is the support by people who believe in one god?

Glad to be on the outside where I can appreciate the good in people without having to colour it with a religious (be it Islamic or christian) paintbrush.

As I stated in another post on another thread...

(http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3856#21103)

Clearly humans have a lot more emotional intelligence to develop before we can consider ourselves civilised.

Agreed Scout - a particularly beautiful, poignant piece by Bashir.

Ought Australia not actively and urgently support Australian Muslims and their Islamist theocracy¿

Countries of the greater Islamic caucus are in a process of a swift launch, elevation, bootstrap and catch-up into and up to the 21st Century.

The pace of this catch-up is and has been short and sharp; and the International Muslim community understandably suffers the vertigo of that atmospheric launch into the new day and age.

Their values are threatened; their chattel freed; their woman's thoughts, minds and sexuality emancipated; their sons tempted and wooed.

Understandably theirs are feelings of threat and rejection. Thus a section of that greater society reacts as a cornered wild animal; with rabid, demented foam at the mouth, spitting blood, claws ready to slash, scar and mutilate.

({{sighs}} - geez - gotta be a munched metaphor there somewhere¿)

Yet every successive bomb in the name of Islam signifies a measure of the chasm and gap that still oozes and hemorrhages and signifies too a measure of how truly cornered, fragile and weak that beast yet remains.

Such an animal is frantic and dangerous...

Muslims in our community (and throughout the western world) are likely the only ones able to reach out and bridge with that greater and larger frightened Islamic community. Australian Muslims are of recent immigration and as such have considered their host well - they have and do identify in Australia and do hold values 'we' hold dear–

...as such 'we' are one!

Without recourse to ASIO's thugs - if we protect that small frightened core of new Muslim Australians - overdose them with the values we hold dear; what great envoys and emissaries they in turn will become? It is their trumpet that will resonate from Marrakech to Djakarta; from the minarets of Cairo, Baghdad and Damascus.

A clarion call of freedom of thought; a call to the care of international democratic expression; and a call to the justice of an impartial judiciary...

...and importantly to soothe and console that 'we' - mean Islam no harm

Thank you, denk, I welcome you to the forum.

The old saying "united we stand; divided we fall" - never more true than here.

Our Muslim neighbours need all the support they can get right now.

Just to experiment, I donned a scarf hijab style and wore it on the train to the city. Even though I am clearly caucasian (blond/blue-eyed) I was amazed at the hostile looks and was even pushed out of the way at the exit. I don't have the courage to wear a scarf that way again. I learnt a lot (too much) about how it feels to be ostracised merely on appearance.

The best way to beat the terrorists is to stand firm with all Muslims.

Scout

My daughter unwittingly gave it go too; wearing a hijab or head scarf to school.

She's a cross-over model and fashion's High Street cognoscenti,(of grade 2 - into the charming, yet esoteric, cult of 'bling').

For her - this season ... 'it is all about scarves!'

'Cool as;...'

But it was all sad for our young faddist.

"The boys all say I'm - 'just a bomb thrower!'"

...their twisted veil of of bias.

So seemingly, a major disappointment; likely a mar her naive 'pash' for fame¿

denk, thanks for an awesome post. Beautifully described. The other bit that continues to occur to me is that there are parts of that culture which might be of relevance to us as we seek to make our communities healthier places. The bits I've read about the "medina" stick out without me having much understanding. The old saying about the baby and the bath water might be relevant.

Scout, again your "radical" approach is challenging and refreshing. I think this "conservative" would get some pretty strange looks if I wore a head scarf hijab style on the train (for a different reason than you did) and not sure I'm brave enough to acquire and wear the long flowing male robes favoured by Arab Oil shieks. I guess I'm already convinced of the level of antagonism from posts on OLO from some. The thing I'd like to try is a walk through some of those parts of Sydney talked about in other posts it see if it is as bad as some claim, no known area's like that in SE Queensland.

Have a great weekend folks.

R0bert

CHRISTMAS DOES BELONG TO US! STUFF THE AUSSIE MOSSIES!

As regular posters know, I never ever write in upper case - an indication of aggression and anger.

Yes, I am bloody angry. How dare a minority group of the Islamic faith suggest that Christmas should be toned down - and that the word should be replaced - "Festive Season".

I am so angry that I can barely write this. We let you pray 5 times per day, you have bloody prayer rooms at airports, and we acknowledge your Ramadam. No other religion has prayer rooms at airports. No other religion is allowed to stop their work practises for prayer.

We live in harmony with those of Jewish faith and Buhddism leanings. They do not try and take over our country!

OK moderates - come forward and defend this disgusting slam at old and true blue Aussie culture.

I am still fuming
Kay

Kay, whats that about? I heard a brief snippet on the radio on a similar line but have not heard the detail. Who has made the suggestion?

I won't be defending any genuine calls for the rest of us to conform to any religion's wishes or practice. My approach is very much for us to find a way to live together accepting the differences and learning from one another. Any muslim making a call such as your post suggests might as well line up with all the other intollerant types who don't want integration or acceptance for muslims into Australian society.

R0bert

Please Kay don't let one single Muslim colour all. Should we judge all Christians by the extreme among them?

I am caucasian in appearance but not a Christian, when I was working in Department of Housing, many, many Muslims greeted me and wished me a happy Christmas.

I am really tired of the way allowances are made for aberrant Christians, yet when a single Muslim does or says the wrong thing hysteria breaks out.

I am tired of saying this too: there are good and bad in all people of all race, colours or religion. To generalise about a particular religion is the same as what was indulged in by Nazis against the Jews.

Now Kay, take a deep breath and chill out. If a Muslim has said anything like that s/he will no doubt be put in his/her place - by other Muslims most likely.

R0bert - thank you for your comments - your posts are increasingly a clear chiming bell of sanity in a storm of hatred.

Scout

It wasn't one single Muslim who said this. It was a group in Sydney who are launching a public debate to "tone down" Christmas and change the name. Sorry, I cannot recall the name of the group. I heard it in discussion on 4bc radio Brisbane. Yasmin Kahn (spelling?) knows the group.

I do not hate anyone. I have no experience of that feeling. Saying that I hold a feeling of anger is not synonymous with the notion of hatred.

Regards
Kay

Kay – firstly I didn’t mean to insult you. I am concerned at the knee-jerk reaction whenever a Muslim makes a comment about anything. I don’t know what the context was when this group of Muslims made their comments. Personally, I think Christmas is over commercialised, I’m not a Christian, so for me Christmas is about getting together with my family. Should I be condemned for this POV?

Should ALL Muslims be judged when one or more makes a comment?

Following that logic, should ALL Christians be condemned for any of the stupid and inappropriate statements made by Fred Nile or George Pell?

For that matter should all Christians be condemned because David believes that all women should put their careers on hold until they have finished raising children? I tell BD that I disagree and see raising children as something to be shared by both parents. But he is entitled to his POV.

Do you see the point I am trying to make?

I am aware that there are people in this wide brown land of ours who loath our values; our way of life. Some of them may well be Muslim and there are plenty who aren’t. I am also pragmatic enough to realise that these extremists are in the minority.

Should we be vigilant – always, but not to the extent where we react at every little opinion that does not reflect our world view – its not a good way to live.

I don’t believe that quoting texts from the bible, quran, torah or whatever proves anything. Yet there are people who believe that they mean everything. Should I condemn these people? Of course not, these texts mean a great deal to them. I would prefer that they engage in debate rather than quotations, but last time I looked I wasn’t master of the universe.

Speak out against those who would oppress us by all means. We don’t want what happened to Bashir to happen to our way of life. Just be certain of who, what and why you are condemning someone first.

Thank you

Dianne

PS - Kay - "the storm of hatred" I refered to wasn't meant to be aimed at you rather the many posters who do nothing but malign Muslims.

Thank you

Scout,

Good worldviewish logic - I respect your views however there is a master of the universe - his name is Jesus - I am curious as how you chose not to believe this fact? Do you know what you are refusing to accept? Or is it mere arrogance on your part?

coach, when he gets control of his own family/house/church/followers such that they actually start to appear to be "the salt of the earth" then maybe some of us who don't cuurently accept the viewpoint you express might take note. Maybe some more of the Annanias and Saphira (I know I have probably spelt that incorrectly) incidents might be a start.

I've no idea how consistent you are to your own beliefs so the following is not a personal reflection on your own "christain walk" rather a reflection on the overall state of the "body of christ". I'm aware that some (BD I suspect and some of my friends) try very hard to live according to their beliefs. At the same time plenty of people who believe other things also live by those beliefs as effectively.

While the christian church continues to be the mess that it is your claims seem like the guy driving a clapped out old Datsun pulling up beside the lady in the new Monaro and reving the engine looking for a drag race. Its a sad joke. What the church claims it's got does not look like it works from out here and until it starts to look like it makes a difference it is of no interest to some of us.

Sorry if this seems harsh, I'm getting very tired of the continual attempts by some christian posters to jam your beliefs down the throats of the rest of us. Live the walk rather than talking the talk.

R0bert

Dear Scout
the interaction between you and Kay, is very illustrative of one major point I've been attempting to make.

1/ On a PERSONAL level, people of pretty much any faith are good neighbours and citizens, friendly and helpful. Few are saying any different.
Please be advised, that subjecting Islam (or any faith) to critical scrutiny is a valid and vital part of cultural behavior. It's not a sign of 'hate' as so many wrongly understand.

2/ On a COLLECTIVE BEHAVIOR level, things change. The very fact that a group (not an individual) of Muslims are seeking to debate the 'tone' of Christmas with the goal of 'toning it down' is quite indicative of this fact. Collectively, social groups seek to protect and advance issues suited to their own values. Often, this is at the expense of the values of others. As shown by the idea of 'toning down' Christmas Kay mentioned. (see point 3 below though on that)

3/ This is the 'actual' social outcome of large numbers of ANY 'different' faith within a prevailing cultural setting. But, interestingly, no such calls are made by Buddhists, Bahai, Jews etc.

To be honest, I would tend to suspect that they are more interested in toning down the 'commercialization' of Christmas, (giving them the benefit of the doubt) but I really don't know enough facts at this stage. If they are just on about that, I would be wholeheartedly in agreement. The true meaning of Christmas HAS been hijacked by commercial interests. But if they ARE seeking to downplay the 'God the Son born into the world' aspect, I take serious issue with it.

The day we take Christ out of Christmas, we are dimished and left with just a selfish/commercial cultural skeleton.

As for you not yet knowing the Lord, well, u can make of the season what you wish, and that is absolutely your right, but I do feel a bit sad for you not apprehending the joy at the deepest level of our spirits that remembering "Him" does give.

Dear Coach (Dianne)

Thank you for your post. I really enjoyed reading it. Ha! Ha! your point about Fred Nile et al was a good one.

In common with you, people who quote the Bible or Kuran ad infinitum drive me nuts. But then, what would the world be like without a character like BOAZ_David? BD knows that he drives me nuts, but when I siphon out all of the quotes and links, I tend to see a very nice human being.

Dianne, I was born into a Christian household. Christened, Holy Communion, taught Sunday School. Read the Bible many times by the age of 16 years. That was it for me. I have not attended "church" since - except for weddings, funerals and the like. I think that anyone who believes every word in the Bible perse is unable to see outside of the square - is unable to think laterally - is unable to question. I think that is very said. Even so, having said that, I still hold with and practice the Christian Values that I was reared with - which seem similar to your own. Caring for people, loving people, respecting people.

RObert
Loved you car analogy.

BD - welcome back - you are such a character!

Cheers all
Kay

Kay,

Up till now I thought you were quite reasonable in your comments. Wasn't just you the other day that were outraged about the toning down of Christmas?

You can't have it both ways unfortunately. You can't be a bit pregnant... What is Christmas to you really? Another celebration like weddings and funerals?

What annoys me is that people like you (the majority of oz)- 'nominal christians'- give a bad impression to the outside world.

I don't understand your outrage defending something that obviously means not much to you anyway.

Since you liked the car analogy - you sound like someone buying car insurance when they don't own a car just to feel good and safe. Christianity is not something you belong to or a set of values ... it’s something you 'wear’with pride daily.

But I won't go further since I think you do not live in Sydney – and it seems you are just here to have fun.

My goodness me "Coach"

You are a very angry and hostile woman. Does that represent hate?

You have no idea of my internal belief system. Your gross assumptions are so erroneous, they are not worthwhile replying to.

I take gross exception to any Islamic group who wishes to "tone down" Christmas - and take the Christ out of Christmas. I pray for my family and others every day. My Mother is a committed Christian and I love her for that. And I love the Christian values that she gave me. That does not mean that I do not have an analytical mind.

I do not subscribe to a commercial Christmas. I make my own presents and my own cards - they are all individual - and I write them with love. I do not use the term Xmas.

I was really shocked with your reply to me. My goodness, you are so aggressive.

I change my mind whenever I feel like it. That's what learning is all about. That's what OLO is all about - learning from others.

You have really come out of the woodwork! I guess that you and Irf will make a good team?

Merry Christmas
Kay

Kalweb & Boaz,

Not sure what the issue is or was but no Muslim should be offended
by Christmas celebration. It might offend Boaz but we are jesus followers as well:-)

Merry Christmas to you and to all who celebrate it.

Kay

My name is DIANNE and my OLO tag is SCOUT. You seem to be confusing me with Coach, who, so far as I know is not called Dianne and I very much doubt is female.

Cheers

Dianne

Kay,

Aggressive moi? See what most people believe that Christians should roll with the punches and give the other cheek, well that may be so….but what they don’t know is what happens when they are slapped again and again…How many bombs will it take to get the message? (Don’t answer that.)

And by the way I am not a woman – so much for your ‘analytical mind’.

I’ll try to be loving from now on.

I pray that Jesus will prove real to you this Christmas.

Fellow_Human,

We meet again huh? What are you trying now? Are you saying that you follow my Jesus now?

Am I missing something? Or have you miraculously made a decision to follow Emmanuel (God with us), The redeemer of humanity from their original sin, The giver of grace, The one who took our place on the cross so we can have eternal life, The one that is to come and judge the world, The creator of the universe, The one who is sitting at the right hand of God The Father,…

Or is this one other trick to trap us into your "Religion of Peace"?

Get Real! This is God we are talking about.

Merry Christmas to you too

Kay

if and when you see or hear of a group of islamists lobbying to respect Aussie xtian xmas tradition, and not subdue it, lemme know... if you don't i think its safe to say all the nice fluffy talk from so called moderates is foo foo

Coach,

I was simply wishing Kay and David a Merry Christmas.

There are no tricks to it but simply our Holy Scripture. Muslims believe in Jesus as the Messiah and his virgin birth.

www.musliminisght.blogspot.com article ‘can we have our Jesus back’.

Muslims are the least to get offended by Christmas because Jesus is a prophet of Islam as well.
In fact, Egypt is a majority Muslims country and Orthodox Christmas is a public holiday (7th of January).

What we don’t share is Jesus divinity & original sin. Thats exclusive to your faith.

Safe Christmas (to every human, creature and plant) and peace to you all,

Hello everyone!

I enter this thread with blushing cheeks (of embarassment) and head bowed in shame (laughing).

"Scout" and "Coach", I do apologise - I did get you two mixed up. So much for commonsense and an analytical mind. I apologise to both of you. I feel like a real Richard Cranium.

Fellow_Human. Thank you for your wishes. And Peace to you.

After my incredible faux pas, I have had a re-think. FH, I don't know how you cope with the sh*t that gets heaped on you and others of your persuasion. I will do my best not to go off half c*cked again. I have severely reprimanded myself!

My husband and I were having a chat just a while ago. We were talking about our lives and how we learn from mistakes. We both shared many embarassing mistakes. But then we thought: "Oh well, that's life. We continue to make mistakes and learn from them". That's a heap better than having someone (or group) shoving their beliefs down your neck.

Cheers to all
Kay

Kay.. it was 'divine retribution' :)) for saying "BD.. you put your foot in your mouth sooo much" :) *grin*

F.H. thanx for your kind wishes, back at ya too.. (hope u get that meaning)

COACH.. yes, do please try to be more loving. But still, we are all unique, different approaches, and if we allow ourselves, we are enriched by that diversity, even if just comparing ourselves and reflecting. Let us not add any offense to the already 'offensive' gospel :)

As we draw near to that special season, for those of us in Christ, we will increasingly feel the warmth of Gods Love, expressed in Jesus, along with friends and family. For those not yet In Christ they will still enjoy the season but perhaps not the spiritual dimension.

Lets all try to put the polarized polemic and struggle with issues out of the forefront of our minds as this special time approaches.

There will be many a Believer who would welcome the chance to embrace F.H. and SCOUT and yes.. EVEN Kenny and Almanac :) and in some way pass on the joy that we ourselves experience.

However we understand the birth of Christ, we are doing it with the 'light that we have'. We believers do try to shine more light, but we cannot bash down the door to do so. It must be opened from the inside.
Love and best wishes to all, and YES.. this is kinda on topic :)

Thanks BOAZ_David,

Point taken - It is very difficult sometimes to bite our tongues long enough when others are having a ball at our expense. When they knowingly lie and/or refuse to open the door of reason…Sad so sad… you are right – the gospel is offensive to those who refuse to believe it. It needs to always be presented ‘in love’ though.

A blessed Christmas to you too and may God bless and protect our nation long enough until the truth prevails.

Keep up the good work – I enjoy reading you. Our work is not in vain.

"This great and vigorous culture, my Son, has been converted into a grim, austere and unattractive code of police laws by an ignorant horde of extremist groups."

The above words from the final paragraph of Bashir's heart felt article returned to me after reading Coach's post of Dec 6, directed to me:

"Scout,

Good worldviewish logic - I respect your views however there is a master of the universe - his name is Jesus - I am curious as how you chose not to believe this fact? Do you know what you are refusing to accept? Or is it mere arrogance on your part? "

Coach would use emotional blackmail to intimidate me to HIS world view. He makes it clear that I would be arrogant for not accepting his version of Jesus into my life. Further, he contradicts himself. He states he respects my world view and then proceeds to insinuate that I am arrogant.

Coach's intolerant post reveals that we have more to fear than just extremist Muslims forcing their religion on us - we have Christians who would tell us what to believe and how to believe. They will use any means at all: from emotional blackmail to the more pleading tones from posters like BD, to outright insults that I receive regularly from Philo.

I want to dance to my own tune - I will not be dictated by anyone, be they religious or not.

You may dance with me - but no-one is to lead.

Long live freedom of thought, of expression, of celebration.

Bashir you article has more revelence that I realised on first reading it.

Bashir I thank you.

SCOUT

most interesting point :) "You may dance with me but no -one is to lead"

hmmm.. I think that is rather profound.. maybe in ways you dont think of,....but 'dancing' as a cultural practice actually DOES involve the male leading :) if not, they will go off in different directions.

Unless you're referring to the 'modern' youth dances where people stand in front of each other doing pelvic or breast thrusts along with a bit of wiggle wiggle....

I don't want to make too much of that, so don't gimme a broadside.

On your perception of our various approaches to your spiritual condition/status. I hope you will think past our own failings or poor judgement, as we stumble on our way to share God's love and truth with you. We are human you know, and we have moods, and sometimes our posts to you are done in the momentum of our reaction to some other post of incident in our lives.

Look past that...to Jesus. By all means compare us to Him, and let us know our failings on that basis.. we welcome it. All glory to Him.
Heb 10

"Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near."

Even in this context, we who know Christ, will be doing this and at the same time, reaching out to you and all those who are yet to know Him.

You may criticize us on this basis if u like:

1 If then there is any encouragement in Christ, any consolation from love, any sharing in the Spirit, any compassion and sympathy, 2 make my joy complete: be of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit.... (Paul)

Bd - you really are clueless.

The dance of life, Boaz, the dance of life.

Now about excusing Coach's poor behaviour. If Irfan or Fellow-Human had used such appalling tactics eg "Accept Mohamed into your life or you are arrogant" - you would've started on a diatribe that could be heard from here to Jerusalem.

Just because Coach is a Christian doesn't excuse his mean style of posting - I don't think he suffers from PMT. But perhaps he does suffer from ITW - Independant Thinking Women. And as far as that goes you would appear to suffer from that as well - to judge many of your posts regarding gender equality.

Back to topic - you are still demonstrating the warning in Bashir's article - that we are in danger of losing our freedom of expression to the oppression of religious fundamentalism of any stripe.

Scout,

I leave the PMT, ITW for you to decide. I think you are independent and intelligent enough to react logically and not just emotionally.

I appreciate it also if you direct your comments to me instead of crying on BD’s shoulder as u 2 dance. (I won’t go there…)

1. I “respect” your view does not mean I “accept” it.

2. There is a difference between a “logical viewpoint” and “Facts & Truths”. Or is this too radical and intolerable to you?

3. I did not insinuate that you may be arrogant I did say it plainly. And thank you for proving it to us: >> Bd - you really are clueless.<<

4. You still haven’t answered my questions or is God Jesus your creator too beneath you? He wants to dance with you too if you let Him lead.

So here is my statement/ questions again:

>>"Scout,

Good worldviewish logic - I respect your views however there is a master of the universe - his name is Jesus - I am curious as how you chose not to believe this fact? Do you know what you are refusing to accept? Or is it mere arrogance on your part? "<<

Coach

1) I was responding to BD's post - hardly crying on his shoulder! Appalling thought.

2) Would you please desist from forcing your religion upon me with unsolicited statements like:

"You still haven’t answered my questions or is God Jesus your creator too beneath you?"

Your god is neither my creator nor beneath me - he is YOUR belief. Not mine.

Once again you reveal yourself as the manipulator who would take all that is good and free and worth celebrating.

I continue to dance despite your efforts to control me.

Dear "Ms Independance" (Scout)

again... thank you for your clafication that I need to have among my meagre skills... that of 'mind reading'.

Hey.. my shoulder can be quite comforting..specially as I've been working out rather 'religiously' lately :)

"If Irf or F.H. made similar statements as Coach".. diatribe ? u are yet to know me. F.H. HAS been making such statements, but they are skilfully disguised and camoflagued, but he also includes enough 'generalness' in his posts to lull you 'infidels' into a warm fuzzy "I wanna be ur friend" kind of relaxed state.

You see, when you actually do understand (through study) Islam, you will know that it is not possible to be acceptable to Allah unless you confess Mohammed as "The last and final prophet".

Irf.. well he does not so much stick up for "Islam" just for Muslim social/political interests.

I have no problem with someone who has conviction expressing it in a forthright manner.. to myself. But regarding Coach's approach, you will have to consider that for yourself, and I repeat, please don't use the approach of a person, as a barrier to the truth his perhaps 'more confrontational' approach is pointing to.

There is only one thing worse than a 'hyprocrite' and that is someone who hides behind one :) You will encounter all shades of 'presentation' of the gospel Scout, from the rough and ready to the refined silver tongued orator, maybe the best solution is to actually dig out the truth yourself ? :)

As I said, by all means come back to us with Christs example or teaching. You should have a read of how the newly Spirit filled Peter addressed the Jewish crowds.. have a read...

<<22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him....and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross>>

He called a spade a spade....

BD all you have done (after much pointless waffle) is excuse the irredeemable Coach for his appalling behaviour.

You would also appear to be trying to prove that black is white.

ie F-H is only polite to try and win me (or others) over. What B---S--t!

You clearly see me as incapable of forming a valid thought of my own - hence your continual attempts to proffer 'guidance'.

I am happy to accept advice - provided I respect the source.

Your constant vilification of anyone who does not conform to your beliefs does not engender respect.

As for your 'mind reading', no I didn't think you were - I did hope that you had a shred of imagination, however. Dance encompasses so many things....

Yes, I am indepedent and self-sufficient - and proud of it (detected patronising tone in your post - again). I have paid and suffered much to become so - therefore will not be subservient to anyone.

Comprendre?

Well Scout you havent changed still ramming your "controlling feminist" point of view down our throat. That we, as you would call, "Christian Fundamentalists" attract your ire because we express an opinion you disagree with. I would probably be right in saying BD, Coach and myself are not your regular door-knockers. But this is a Public Forum where opinion is expressed, accept it or reject it, it is your choice. I may be true to your opinion of me,"to outright insults that I receive regularly from Philo." But you do come across with an agenda to control others. How do the "hen pecked" men in your house relate to you?

Well all that aside, I too must accept insults and intimidation, that is par for the course if you follow one who was crucified for his beliefs. I do not follow a door-mat where people wipe their feet, but one who was strong in character and yet a humble servant.

I wish to all here of good will a happy Christmas. Yes that includes you Scout, if you can celebrate Christ. This is your choice!

And a good morning to you too, Philo.

Glad to see you have taken so much time on your post - six days in fact.

I am interested to know how the desire for independence constitutes "ramming your "controlling feminist" point of view down our throat (sic)"

I don't recall ordering you, BD, Coach or anyone to believe as I do.

I have simply requested that I (and for that matter other posters) not to be bullied, blackmailed or insulted.

Have a very, merry Christmas.

Fellow_Human: 1. Your scriptures are not holy - according to the Bible.
2. You believe in a different Jesus NOT the Biblical Jesus, according to the same Bible.
F/H There is Christianity and other religions which are pagan - sorry about that but that is a fact, according to the Bible! It's not us who are unbelievers it's - go on guess.
Moslems w/ship a different God entirely, Christians worship, or should w/ship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob this same God is the Father of Jesus Christ.
The recorded birth and life of Jesus is the fulfillment of over 350 O/T prophecies. These prophecies were written and then fulfilled by Jesus well before, what some call the terrorist's handbook - the koran was written. Well before mohamed was born or was even thought of.
By the way I am not putting you down, you have the freedom to believe what you will, usually the religion you were born into.
If you have changed from Christian to islam then you could be in deep noo noos. Regards, numbat

Numbat,

I understand that this is what you believe. However, the Quran claims there is only one God: the God of Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus and Mohamed. He also claims to be the author of the Torah, the Psalm, the Bible and the Quran. You have ‘your truth’ and we have ours: there is only one God.

Boaz David,

I hope you had a happy Christmas.
In your accusation that ‘I am lulling people with warmth and fuzziness’ not only is an insult to the intelligence of the average poster on OLO but also ignoring a simple fact: most if not all my postings was in response to misleading or misrepresenting comments by you and few other “Mosque-teers”.

You as a professional missionary know the facts and know how Muslims view their faith; you posted over 1500 posts full of misleading contents. I gave up asking you to be honest but at least be fair, you are mocking Jesus teachings you keep talking about.

Another correction Mr “Expert on Islam”: - )

The Quran never addresses Muslims, the pre-requisite for God’s acceptance is to believe in one God, his scriptures and the commandments. No need to copy and paste what you and I know, but the Quran refers to believers “who follow the messages and messengers that God sent to them”.

Using your expression ‘calling a spade a spade’, the Holy Quran claims to be a confirmation of God previous messages. The Quran claims the Jews are the chosen people to teach and preach the message of unity, he also claims Jesus is his messenger and his miracle with no compromise on the commandments.

Peace,

Fellow_Human,
How do you identify God?
As believers in One God we shouldn't think of Him in terms as a being, if our image of Him is spatial, above the heavens. God is eternal Spirit whose presence is manifest in perfect character, actions and attitudes. It's in these terms Christians recognise God; interacting with our conscience, desires and behaviour motivating purity of character, faith, hope, and peaceful relationship. These demonstrated in acts of love, sacrifice, mercy, grace, forgiveness, care, provision, valour, courage and perseverance. In other words God is most evident when human character is moral creating blessing for all people with devotional attention to the highest calling of humanity. We admire the attributes of His character that have been demonstrated incarnate in men who emulate Him. His judgment falls upon nations that ignore his grace.

The worship and praise of God is not focused in a being, supposedly up above the heavens, it should be focused in His character and actions as demonstrated in human history, and personal life. We do not worship the creature -Jesus; we worship the agreed perfect character - one God. Faith in God is not a doctrine that is to be memorised it is a character that is to be lived. A doctrine about there being one God is irrelevant and divisive if there is no agreement as to the nature of his character [if such admirations of what is His character cannot be agreed upon]. That is why Christians uphold the character of Christ as the nature of very God incarnate that's the human template for all men. In a world where Talmud laws were oppressive to people, Christ came as servant to all people. However God isn't there for manipulation as our servant, but he is expressed in our human character as blessing and caring for others, especially the weak, sick, and vulnerable; empowering, healing, and giving strength.

In a true Biblical world-view anyone behaving outside the example lived by Christ (the character of very God) is not worshipping the true God even if they tag themselves as Christian or any religion

Fellow_Human,
For believers who worship the God of the sinless Jesus, who taught love your enemies, serve your enemy etc, it's very difficult to accept Mohamed as prophet of the same God. When he murdered and raped and sanctioned sex slaves from his enemy by Allah's sanction. He never denounced or repented of such behaviour but saw it as acceptable jihad. Don't deny these facts from his life as those who follow him still sanction and practise such barbaric behaviour viz Indonesia. Talking about God does not make one a follower of the true God, the true God is expressed in pure character, behaviour, repentance and seeking forgiveness of sin and the blessing of even enemies.

If persons calling themselves Christian behave as Mahomet, they cannot in any aspect of that behaviour be considered as following the God of Christ. Such persons do not know God of pure morality and blessing to all men, as declared originally by Abraham, "In thee shall all the nations be blessed", and Moses God who declared God is not remote El Shaddai, but Yahweh [Exodus6:3]present in His people. As Jesus demonstrated by his life, God was the one present within the human experience, and not an oppressive Judge binding man in legal religious ritual but a liberator of the pure spirit of God within those of faith.

State law isn't the template for man it's there because man violates socially unacceptable behaviour. The righteousness Christ announced and lived stands supreme above State law enforced by Talmud following Judaisers and the Islamic Shari'ah.

The apostle Paul after murdering many of Christ's followers in the name of his God became a follower of the God of Christ Jesus, after a revelation that Jesus expressed that very nature of true God. He too as a follower of Christ finally submitted to the sword of Roman law after being accused by the Jewish zealots of preaching a false religion. So we choose to follow the God demonstrated in Christ and not the God demonstrated in Mahomet. There is a difference in the moral character of our God!

Fellow_Human:As I said there is only one God, one Creator and that is the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob who is also the Father of this world's - yours also F/M - Saviour Jesus Christ.
He is NOT! the god of pagan (Biblical definition}islam, NOT the god of pedophilic, brutal mohamed.
We do not see immigration officers and security personal seeking out Methodists as terrorists. Nor are many? Presbyterian cowardly, stupid suicide bombers.
Nor are there many Christian nations passing laws regarding multiple wives as Malaysia is attempting.
Again no Christian nation has mut'ah marriages, one of the pillars of islamic misogeny.
NO Christian nation has brutal, bloody craven honour killings as do islamic nations.
* By their fruits you shall know them*
Please F/H you are free to worship any god you want, but please cease trying to kidnap Jesus Christ and make Him one of your so-called pagan prophets. numbat

Numbat,

You are mixing up methodists and terrorists and that is your choice.

As for your request re Jesus (pbuh), part of our faith/ the Quran is belief in all prophets and Holybooks (including Jesus) so I will have to kindly reject your claim for exclusivity.

Peace and all the best,

Oh! Fellow_Human it would have better had you not given your pathetic answer to my post. But I add a typical pro pagan moslem answer.
You claim the Jewish Jesus yet your "terrorist h/book" tells adherents to kill Jews.
As for your dark, dismal, dreary, death loving pagan religion again I state - "BY THEIR FRIUTS YOU SHALL KNOW THEM" No need for me to enumerate the "fruits?" of islam eh mate. numbat

FH - you have the patience of a saint (do Muslims have saints?) no matter the abuse you receive from so many here, tries my patience and sorely tests yours.

If I was wearing a hat I would doff it to you.

All the best for the New Year, my friend.

Dianne

Numbat,

“jewish Jesus adheres to kill Jews”. You have a passion to create your own propaganda but to end up believing it is astonishing. Where in the Quran does it say that? Jesus ‘second coming in Islam (3&4) is to unify monotheists and confirm the commandments and the importance of intent (Across all religions).

‘Mutah marriage’ my ‘well informed friend’ is practised in the Shiite world only and is not part of the Islamic faith. The five pillars of Islam are: belief in one God, the holy books and prophets, pray 5 times a day, fast Ramadan, pay the alms (poors due) and pilgrim once in a life time if you can afford it. These are the only five pillars of Islam.

I think you should put the keyboard aside before you hurt yourself and read a little more. Or just accept you know nothing about the subject and stick with what you know.

Scout/ Dianne,

Thanks for your note. No we don’t have saints but patience is a good choice to make in life I guess. I am surprised at the level of prejudice by some posters on this forum. I understand many are willing to talk about Islam but willing to repeat what they were told in a brain less manner rather than interacting with Muslim posters.

Happy New Year to you too, we went to watch the fireworks at the Opera house till 2:30 am. It was fun, we had few overseas visitors and all Aussies were kind and nice (even though we had an old lady with a veil).

An old Egyptian wish “for the year of the dog”:
Wishing you the best three in life: health, wealth and peace of mind.

Well wishes goes to you too numbat..

Peace..

Fellow_Human: You may waffle on all you like but the koran tells its adherents to slay unbelievers, that includes Jews and Christians, and many do so.
The Christian Jesus was the Son of the Eternal, the Christian Jesus suffered and was killed. This Christian Jesus was entombed and then He was resurrected, glorified and was taken up to Heaven.
This did not happen to the pagan moslem jesus, this jesus belongs in the heads of islamics only.
By the way I do not hate heathens, pagans or unbelievers, feel sorry for them perhaps. numbat

Numbat,

“the koran tells its adherents to slay unbelievers, that includes Jews and Christians”.

I guess that explains why Jews and Christians lived safely among Muslims for the last 14 centuries.
What the heck is the ‘Christian Jesus’? Jesus is a follower of the Mosaic Law which muslims follow. There was only one Jesus.
Anyway, Enjoy your ‘truth’ and yes, I feel sorry for them too.

numbat,

I sympathise with you trying to reason with the likes of FH – been there myself.

The facts are that what all the Islamic books teach is a complete alien ‘gospel’ to the word of God, known as the bible.

For ‘them’ to admit this is to reject everything they stand for. Those among them who start questioning their beliefs and read our bible become Christians. Can you imagine the calamity that this enlightenment can bring to islam?

Historically speaking there are stages of behaviour for islam - known as 'jihad' - depending on the circumstances and the land they are present in.

For example when their self proclaimed apostle started his organization in Mecca he had very few followers so you read in his text a nice almost prosaic gospel. He had to be passive and restrained and counting on his uncle’s generosity and protection from his once fellow pagans idolaters.

When he had to flee persecution to Medina, he met new critics like Jews and Christian-Jews who bluntly told him the truth and what he could do with his prophethood. So that’s the second phase of islam: ‘dialogue’. Engaging the non-muslims in discussions and give them the choices of conversion, submission or death.

With power acquired that way, after building a army of followers he returns to Mecca and slaughters the lot and re-establish himself as the conqueror; which is full aggression against the enemies of Allah (the third stage of islam or jihad).

So don’t be fooled by cheap talk and propaganda. The likes of FH are simply marking time UNTIL the goal of islam is achieved, that is the conquest of all lands back to Allah and the establishment of Islamic states.

Fellow_Human,
I assume you are busy with your website. Hope it is meeting your goals.

However I am waiting for your answer to:

1.How God is revealed in our world and society today.
2.How was he revealed in Christ Jesus?
3.Is the revelation of God based in our believing in one God the prophets and holy books, saying prayers five times a day, observing ramadan, making a trip to Medina, and giving assistance to the needy?

How is God revealed? Are the above actions appeasment of his anger, or methods of avoiding the anger of the Muslim religious police.

Fellow_Human: I really do not know where to begin but I will try. These quotes will not be in order so bear with me and learn about your pagan religion.
United States:"Ultimately we can never be full citizens of this country..." Ihsan bagby. (what about this country?)
Great Britain: "WE don't make a distinction between civilians and non-civilians.. only between muslems and unbelievers. And the life of an unbeliever has no value" sheikh omar bakari
Australia: "I am telling you that my religion doesn't tolerate other religion..." abu bakr, moslem cleric
47.4: When you meet unbelievers, strike off their heads [my remarks-like the Christian schoolgirls in Indonesia recently]; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.
"O ye who believe! murder those of the disbelievers.... (repentance:28)
"O believers, do not make friends with the Jews or Christians; whoso of you makes them his friend is one of them" (The Table:55)
A real religion of peace eh F_M? numbat

Coach,

Your ‘reason’ tell you about one big conspiracy theory by Muslims to take over the world! If this is what you call ‘reason’, can you share your fantasy or hallucination?

Philo,

Let me try,

1. Through his creation (animals, plants), earth, life, death, astrology, etc..
2. Jesus pbuh is his word, miracle and messenger of tolerance. Sent to enforce the spiritual meaning of the commandments and free the world from the dogmatic practice of religion.
3. Learning the wisdom of the Holy books, the stories of the prophets, following the commandments is really all you need. Appeasing anger along with more than 70 other good quality is mentioned in the Holy Quran are choices we can make to be closer to God. Being closer to god is by recognising and practising good qualities.

Peace,

Numbat,

If you want to discuss why focus on a bunch of radicals then claim they represent Islam? Most Imams (in Australia or overseas) promote peace and co-existence.

As for your reference to the Holy book, the verse you quoted (if you read the following and previous verse refers to those ‘who fight you’ and always followed by ‘and shall not transgress’ commandment. Muslims are not allowed to fight anyone if not defending their land or property from an aggression. Agressor is not exclusive to non-Muslims by the way because the Quran defines that some agressors could be Muslims (like when Iraq invaded Kuwait for example).

If you bothered to read all references to Jews and Christians in the Quran you will see many more quotes about defining their good qualities and how Muslims can trust them with their properties and money. The verse you chose talks about some of the hypocrites who want to be-friend Muslims only to lure them away from the right path.

Peace,