Quote: "No law or moral code of decency, least of all an Islamic one, tolerates the deplorable murder or rape of people."

Obviously Waleed has not read the Koran or even newspapers recently. Actually, the lawyers have a point. Did not the great prophet of Islam tell Muslims they could rape their married female slaves at anytime? Did not he say to kill infidels "wherever you find them"? How about such statements as "So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam" and "Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. Those who follow him are merciful to one another, but ruthless to unbelievers."

So - hate, anger, murder, oppression, discrimination, forced marriages, suicide bombers, fatwas and threats, honor killings, female genital mutilation, stonings, torture, rape, racism, killing of children (Beslan), as well as the continuing propagation of hate in literature and in the mosques against infidels, Christians, Jews and any other group they dislike - these are the fruit of Mohammud and his religion. The concept of "human rights" is NOT usually associated with Islamic countries, except if prefixed with 'lack of'. Iran is calling for the murder of every man, woman and child in Israel. How Islamic!

Most of the time they say these issues are "cultural" and have nothing to do with Islam, except they seem to be so often associated with the Muslim world and Islamic communities. Remember, "Islam is a complete system of life."

Things will get much worse as the numbers of Muslims in the West grows, especially if Multiculturalism continues as public policy and educational doctrine. Radical Muslims will hate, kill and rape, while moderates will make excuses saying is is not the 'real' Islam.

Tell me, Waleed, how many times does a Muslim have to make excuses like this before he begins to suspect that there may be something very rotten in Islam?

Kactuz

Later….

I open my browser to Yahoo to check my email and there it is in the news section….

JAKARTA (Reuters) - Three teenage Christian women were beheaded on Saturday by two assailants wearing helmets in eastern Indonesia as they walked to school near the Muslim town of Poso…

NEW DELHI - Near-simultaneous explosions rocked the Indian capital Saturday evening, tearing through a bus and two markets crowded with people shopping for gifts for a Hindu festival. At least 58 people were killed and dozens wounded in …

Earlier this week the president of the ISLAMIC Republic of Iran announces that he wants to kill every man, woman and child in Israel.

Last week I had to read about a Coptic nun being knifed in Egypt by some brave Muslim man, for “insulting” Islam.

It is always the same old story. I may be wrong, but these may be the work of the friends, or better, co-worshipers, of our Muslim posters here at OLO. This is not a culture, this is a mad, evil and morbid faith that causes either moral blindness and denial, or hate and murder. How disgusting and pathetic is this religion called Islam. Yet, It is truly worthy of its founder -- a man who was (as recorded in Islam’s own writings) a slaver, torturer and murderer.

Does it ever end? More excuses? FH? Waleed? Irf? Maybe the girls were killed because of Bush or US policy in Iraque. Maybe it was because of the Palestinian conflict! Who knows, it may even be the Crusader’s fault.

Tell me, dear Muslims, how many more little girls and children have to die for Muslims to stop, think and consider the nature of Islam? How many more rapes will it take for you to ask yourselves “why”? This moral and intellectual blindness is utterly contemptible.

Maybe the beheadings have something to do with this:
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?search_text_box_dsn4=23445&lv=browse&formtrans=dgn%3D4%7C&ln=eng&ds=qa&sensitivity=2&searchquestions=1&searchtitles=1&searchanswers=1&searchsources=1&pg=result&offset=0&msubmit=1&submit.x=45&submit.y=5
(Q&A number 23445 at http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng )

Too disgusted to write any more.

John Kactuz

BD,

Sorry for the cut & paste but the questions are repetitive!.

I referred to explicit women rights and minorities rights in our scripture. You can't point me to any so far, OT mentions 3 wives to Abraham and 'right hand possessions'.

Anyway, enjoy the weekend.

Kaktuz,

You are stuck mate!

It seems you formed a view and you are only willing to consider whatever supports it. Even muslims websites, you ignore the most popular sites for modern day muslims (like the modernreligion.com) and quote from the least popular ones.

You also mix politics history and religion too (Iran/ Israel).

As for Egypt, unfortunately some coptic christians and Muslims fell into the vicious circle of hate. The poor Pope Shenouda had to apologise for the hate preached behind his back in some churches in Alexandria.

I believe they should work together similar to how they worked in 1919 (priests talking in Mosques and Imams in churches) about how to support one another.

Sad!

F.H. I'm sorry man, but you are simply putting up straw ladies here.

Let me remind you of the topic..... and the quote from Waleed which I was responding to:

"No law or moral code of decency, least of all an Islamic one, tolerates the deplorable murder or rape of people."

Now, lets take them one by one,

1/ Murder

Ka'ab ibn al-Ashraf. The facts.

a) He wrote poetry against Mohammed
b) Mohammed had him murdered. (the Hadith uses the word 'murder')
c) I'm not aware of any 'repentance' for this act by Mohamed. (in contrast to King David)

2/ Rape.

Quran 23:5-6 "sex with captive slaves is allowed"

Various other references which I'm sure you are aware of in the Hadith
Indicate Mohamed did not condemn the IMMEDIATE rape of captive women after the victory at Khaiber.

So, (as justice Higgins would say) "on the facts" there is no other conclusion which can be reasonably drawn, than that Islam as a faith, on the grounds of its foundational documents and historical traditions, either allows murder (of enemies) and rape (of captives), or, does not see such things as we would view them. In either case, it is an abhorrent act.

One could add about the various schools of Islamic jurisprudence, in which there are stronger or weaker views on such matters as 'insulting the prophet' attracting the death penalty. None of these views changes the facts cited above, and each school bases its conclusions by and large on those documents, though there are some which claim there is room for re-interpretation, (but I would ask 'on what grounds')

So, I've addressed the topic, (again) and demonstrated that the assumptions made by the author are inconsistent with the faith (as documented in Quran and Hadith) he claims to represent.

Perhaps he should have prefaced his article with "I am of the such and such school of interpretation which believes such and such"...it would have made understanding him a little easier.

BD or BDs,

There are either many of you using the same PC (or you are extremely forgetful!).

Even though you keep initiating the 'my religion is better than yours', my above posting proves beyond doubt that, comparing scripture to scripture proves Quranic teachings a lot more 'pro women' rights.

You failed to bring any arugument from your scripture that supports the argument you initiated so now you resort to the 'hear say' stories written by Jewish tribes!

I am still waiting on 'women rights' in your scripture, there are 177 in the Quran.

Until then, enjoy these new sites:

http://www.islamonline.net
http://www.islamonline.com
http://www.whyislam.org

And a new think tank on Islam and democracy:

www.islam-democracy.org

As a woman who regularly posts on this forum (formerly as Trinity) I have always been treated with respect by Fellow Human, however I have been regularly condescended to by BD and other christians.

Thank you FH - your actions and words are in accord.

Back to the thread - once again Waleed has hit the mark. I note from this forum the rants indulged in by posters who use any excuse to deride those they view as different and therefore 'less equal' than their high and mighty selves - barbaric indeed.

Much love to all - especially the narrow minded ;-)