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The Forum > Article Comments > The case for the defence - blame the cultural bogeyman > Comments

The case for the defence - blame the cultural bogeyman : Comments

By Waleed Aly, published 25/10/2005

Waleed Aly argues blaming cultural background and religion for criminal acts is an excuse for barbarism.

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BD,

I thought you challenged me on ‘scripture to scripture’ not ‘philo’sophical interpretation?

Anyway, I think I made my point on Islam’s position on women rights & slavery.

Philo,

The word ‘kafir’ have a spectrum of meanings: ungrateful, wicked, unbeliever, infidels, etc..

The ‘fight’ scenarios you refer to in our Holy scripture is ‘those who fight you’ and always followed with ‘shall not transgress’ or ‘until they persecute you no more’

On your ‘westernised Muslim”, in my view are those who apply good western values (openness, environmental awareness, human and social awareness) to become better Muslims. The famous 19th century Imam (Mohamed Abdou) when asked about Europe quoted a famous phrase: “In the West, I have seen Islam without Muslims; in the East I have seen Muslims but no Islam”.

Kaktuz & Philo,

You cannot process understanding of Islam through a Christian framework. Few key differences I noticed:

- You assume importance of an Imam or a sheikh’s opinion as important as a Priest or Cardinal opinion: this is not correct since religious scholars have no ‘holiness’ like under your model. Their role is only at the ‘opinion’ level and could be right or wrong. They have no authority over the Holy scripture, while in your religion the pope and the church decides what your faith is and isn’t. You are not allowed (in most cases) to process the bible on your own.

- Hadith (Mohamed PBUH sayings) came to existence 200 years after the prophet’s death. Early founders of Islam intentionally ignored collecting it because Islam is the message (Quran) and not the messenger. Hadith has never been part of Islam and should be taken cautiously (what conflicts with God’s teachings is overlooked). In your scenario, God, the message and the messenger is one thing: you actually worship Jesus, we don’t worship Mohamed (PBUT both).

- Orthodoxy in Islam means contextual understanding and applying thinking and common sense throughout the teachings. An orthodox Muslim is the least likely to offend or harm another being.
Posted by Fellow_Human, Monday, 7 November 2005 12:09:59 PM
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Fellow_Human,
It is nice to see someone trying their best to explain what others do not understand. I gain a little more insight each time you add to the discussion.

Like some others I feel there are problems within Islam – but much like there are with the Christian faiths. And I’m sure you would agree with this. Too bad few see or recognise this – it is something that could bring the moderates closer together.

Keep doing what you are doing. I wish there was a way to help get your message to those Muslims who are confused and angry, it would help a great deal. Much like I wish there was a way to break through the brick walls of some minds in the Christian world.

If it were to start with the heads of all the religions, it would be a good start – as you say, Christians take their lead from these people – as do the Muslims take their lead from the Imams, even though they have no official role like a pope o
Posted by Reason, Monday, 7 November 2005 1:28:57 PM
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Hi Reason,

Thanks for your support, I actually meet with a fairly good number of young Muslims (including new converts) in Sydney whenever possible and most of them are just beautiful smart kids (although playing rugby with 8 of them last night is not the best idea!) but their understanding of Islam and its foundation is superficial and in some cases incorrect.

Totally agree with your point: Orthodox Muslims are never a worry they may be strict but can never be harmful; angry youth with ‘egg-shell’ understanding of Islam is where the risk might be.

You touched the worry I am living which is if we don’t reach them another Salafi website or chat room will ( I have already seen worrying examples). I am planning a website or blog to assist them with proper contextual education; I believe I already have 80-90 young audience to begin with.
Another 2 hours off my 5 hours sleeping time, anyway, that’s the bit that I can do. Last thing any Muslim wants is innocent blood in his/her name
Posted by Fellow_Human, Monday, 7 November 2005 3:07:14 PM
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No thoughts today - too busy, roo tired.
Today I would just like to share a few comments I came accross today on the topic here:

Quote:
The deep problems the European “social model” suffers from are not focused on by our friends on the Left. The demographic death spiral, massive structural unemployment, increasing levels of crime (at or exceeding American levels in most cases), bureaucratic stasis which holds down growth and prevents the creation of new businesses, a business community focused on rent-seeking, a stifling PC multiculturalism, an unresponsive and unaccountable government at national and Union levels – this is all off the radar. And the biggest of all these elephants crowded into the room is the very large, unassimilated, unemployed and unemployable, welfare-supported Muslim minority. Warehoused in public housing projects which have been abandoned by the police, with no opportunity for gainful work, yet supported by relatively lavish benefits, this community has been a time-bomb waiting to go off. We now see that the French state, one of the most expensive, intrusive and arrogant there is, falls on its face when it is asked to perform its core function of providing physical security to lives and property.

The above is from
http://www.chicagoboyz.net/archives/003686.html

Also 3 more very good articles:

1. Europe's Wahhabi Lobby
Extremists get together to worry about intolerance.
by Stephen Schwartz
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/174gxfos.asp

2. Show Them Who Is the Boss in France
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/444

3. The Barbarians at the Gates of Paris (from 2002 but on the dot)
by Theodore Dalrymple
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1515278/posts

The question is... who has benefited from this situation? The events of these past weeks were totally predictable. Why did they let it go year after year? Think about it!

That's all.
kactuz
Posted by kactuz, Monday, 7 November 2005 4:05:01 PM
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Fellow_Human,
I respect your good intention, but situations like the Youth riots in France indicate faith in practise in Islam does not modify behaviour. Their interpretation of Islam actually incites conflict. All I can say you would not find 10,000 true followers of Christ creating such destruction and chaos.

I recognise they don't interpret the Quran like you, but that's the point. We've no threat of violent action from you or your like, but to retain a civilised society we need you and your like to teach the modifications that create good citizenship. The Afgan cameleirs brought to Australia posed no threat to our society and made great contributions. Many recent elements we've allowed into Australia want to overthrow the principles of social cooperation and intelligent contribution to Western society.

From your comments, quote" "You cannot process understanding of Islam through a Christian framework."

I realise that! I cannot accept sex slaves as sanctioned by God as did Mahomet. Such action is barbaric in my conscience and view of Christ. I hold a totally different morality where all persons are to be treated equal,i.e. "Love your neighbour as yourself". When Jesus used these words he was speaking to Jews who despised their Samaritan neighbours, yet it was the Samaritan that demonstrated real neighbourliness.

For your interest the Pope is one of the last persons I take scriptual advice from. I have written commentaries on the Biblical text that the Pope would denounce as blasphemy. If you read my last post you would see I hold that each person is personally responsible to God. I don't place the security of my life and future in the views of the Pope, but examine truth for myself.

Quote, "- You assume importance of an Imam ..opinion as important as a Priest ... not correct religious scholars have no ‘holiness’ like under your model. They have no authority over Holy scripture, while in your religion the pope and the church decides ... You are not allowed (in most cases) to process the bible on your own."
Posted by Philo, Monday, 7 November 2005 8:05:14 PM
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Jesus and Slaves:
Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are physically beaten.”

Jesus saw part of his mission was to deliver captives from slavery. Slavery was used by a conquering nation to keep their assumed enemy oppressed and weak. Jesus, unlike Mahomet, envisaged a society where all men are equal and everyman's life is fulfilled
Posted by Philo, Thursday, 10 November 2005 10:52:16 PM
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