I sincerely hope Waleed Aly is right, and that Australia's mature and effective multiculturalism blunts the ideology of division that drives both the terrorists and those who commit hate crimes in response. That few hate crimes followed the Bali and Jakarta bombings is also a positive sign.

While we may have refrained from criminal violence, however, there is evidence of growing tendency in parts of the community to support an ideology of divisiveness achieved through the use of state powers – e.g. emphasising tighter citizenship conditions, greater government surveillance and controls, or more explicitly discriminatory measures targeted at Muslims or migrants. Some of the contributors and commentators in these forums are expressing such views.

This, of course, is likely to be welcomed by the bombers, whose purposes include inflaming antagonism and fear between Muslims and non-Muslims. If anyone believes that western conservatism is the only ideological foe of the values and practices of multiculturalism, pause for a minute to imagine what Bin Laden thinks of it.

So thank you Waleed Aly, for pointing out that multiculturalism is not the cause of terrorist acts, but part of the solution. The best defiance we can show against the hate-mongers of all persuasions is to continue showing respect for those who are different and celebrating our diversity, refusing to forget that “there is more we have in common than there is that divides us.”

Waleed

Multiculturalism died... the day that the ISLAMIC COUNCIL of Victoria attempted to 'DIMMIFY' the people of Christ in Victoria.

The concept of multi-culturalism is flawed. It's also insulting. When people from 'Greece or Italy' come to 'Australia' they come as our invited guests, and with the expection that they will regard themselves as AUSTRALIANS first, and 'of Greek or Italian ancestry second.

The idea that they would do so only until they 'had the numbers' to re-shape the community in a 'Greek or Italian' way, is an affront to the host country of unimaginable magnitude. But this does not happen, because Greeks and Italians are basically of the Judao Christian stream of history. Such is not the case with Muslims.

No serious Muslim instructed in the foundations of their faith, would EVER come to Australia with the idea of being 'less muslim'. Sadly they come expecting to change our existing laws, re-shaping our society, and silencing any criticism of their faith.

Why ? because "Islam" is a package. It involves the idea of State, Culture and Morality. The last 2 are ok, its the FIRST which is the worry.

The speediest way to incite 'anti muslim' feeling and to cause people to become active in restricting Muslim immigration is to bite the hand which feeds you.

I call on the ICV to APOLOGISE for its relentless persecution of Christians from CTF. and to pay their legal costs, and to re-build the home of an associate which some fanatics BURNT DOWN !

To do less, would be a grave and lasting insult to Australia.

That you even dare to write about Multi culturalism is amazing to me since you are in my opinion responsible for destroying it.

David
Do you regard yourself as a Christian first, or an Australian first?

I am sorry to sound a bit immature, but reading the letters (to the editor) in the papers and reading comments against further migration and multiculturalism in these forums, has put an old song in my head.

So in the words of Joe Dolche, (Novelty song this may be, but it makes the point more direct, don't ya think?) ;)

"Whats the matter you? Hey! Gotta no respect? Hey! What you think you are doin'? Hey! Why you looking so sad? "Ah its a not so bad. Its a nicer place, Hey! SHUDDAPAYA FACE! :) Multi culturalism may have its flaws, but it would be a boring country without it. :)

Biggest fear I have of Muslims is getting fat because of their hospitality to guests. Too much great food.

I'm Jewish - part of a minority group - grew up in a Jewish part of Leeds UK. Jews generally need to live close to synagogues and kosher food shops, and Jewish schools. Seems quite normal to me if other cultures/religions congregate in similar fashion.

Mixing with people of diverse cultures is rich, so much to learn, takes you out of your comfort zone and encourages you to review your own ideas and assumptions. There are plenty of shared values such as love of family, expression through art, music, dance and basic human needs to feel safe and loved. And sure in each culture, race, religion there are loads of examples of extremism, wrongness, but this applies to white Western nations too.

I feel more affinity to some Muslims than to some Australians (I'm thinking the behaviours displayed via Big Brother)
Besides, Australia's people are black, and the nations to the north are Asian. How can Australia be anything else but multicultural?

Yes, multiculturalism works if you haven't been taken to the courts by Muslims against free-speech in Victoria

SHOSHANA
you appear to be a very historically sheltered and socially naive Jew :)
sorry, but you seem to not understand the social dynamics of 'majority/minority' and competition for resources which are usually the triggers for anti social/anti Jewish behavior from non Jews, specially some Muslims. You also appear to be mis-associating the benign social behavior of 'niceness' which all of us are by 'common sense' likely to manifest with the wider picture of fundamental religious doctrine, and human motivation.

I'll bet you did not mention anything about the moves among right wing Jews to remove the ugly sore of the Dome of the Rock or the Al Aksah mosque from the Holy of Holys Temple Mount eh ? :) if you did, your 'Jewishness' may have become an immediate source of acute embarrassment and even outright hostility.

ISLAM and the WORLD.

FACT 1. The Coalition of the Willing are involved in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN.

FACT 2. The London bombers were a) Home grown, b) Ethnic Somali (the one arrested)

QUESTION: We have to ask "Why does a SOMALI who is living in UK, blow up a UK train " ?
ANSWER: Defending Islam (?) ! The only connecting factor between the Somali Ethnicity and UK residence and the war in Iraq is Islam. The religion.

There is no UK involvement in Somalia, so its not 'nationalism'.

So, quite apart from your own heart (and tummy) warming experiences of social interaction, we should be more concerned at the issue from a government policy and national security perspective.

BOMBERS IN MELBOURNE ?
We have seen interviews with some young Muslim men who perfectly fit the profile of 'potential bomber' from a doctrinal/religious standpoint (the Age recently) so statistically speaking, while the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful and getting on with life, there ARE those who are pre-disposed to violently attacking our way of life.

One more fact: No Buddhists, Taoists, Confucianists, Falungonsists, Sikhs, Hindus or any other religious group is attacking the UK.

BOAZ_David

ISLAM & THE WORLD
FACT 1: The majority of Islamic countries have been ‘set up’ by US (Christian) backing, leaving a despot in charge and keeping many people poor and oppressed. How does the ‘Christian’ community not take responsibility for this? Happy to use them but no responsibility for them?

FACT 2: McVeigh, The Una Bomber, KKK and other previously named were ‘home-grown’ from Christian stock. Why are they exempt from your ‘world view’ of religious wrongs? Too close to home?

YOUR ANSWER: Defending Islam? Perhaps. Just disregard the disenfranchisement of the people through capitalist exploitation. When was the last time a Christian country truly reached out and helped the poor in another country? Where is the model of Jesus you so often hold up in the way Christian countries operate with regard to these others?

ONE MORE FACT: Terrorism is not the sole province of Islam. Christians, Hindus and others have all used it (to little effect in the end).

You have no right to call yourself Christian. You speak as an evil man would. Justify your bigotry and hypocrisy. You are an embarrassment to Christians....

to boaz.

Conquistador of Mexico, the Zulu and the Navaho
The Belgians in the Congo short memory
Plantation in Virginia, the Raj in British India
The deadline in South Africa short memory
The story of El Salvador, the silence of Hiroshima
Destruction of Cambodia short memory

Short memory, must have a, short memory

The sight of hotels by the Nile, the designated Hilton style
With running water specially bought short memory
A smallish man Afghanistan, a watch dog in a nervous land
They're only there to lend a hand short memory
Wake up in sweat at dead of night
And in the tents new rifles hey short memory

If you read the history books you'll see the same things happen again and again
Repeat repeat short memory they've all got it
When are we going to play it again
Got a short, got a short, got a short, got a short
They've got a short must have a short they've got a short aah
Short memory, they've got a.

Boaz, I notice that you haven't responded to Rhian's question.

"Do you regard yourself as a Christian first, or an Australian first?"

Write on one side of the paper only. Give examples.

And only use capitalisation where required for good grammar! :)

Sadly, radical Muslims are threatened by free-speech and want to control populations through censorship.

How many movies are censored in Iran? How many movies are censored in Syria? I've lost count! Note: They are all Muslim countries.

Trust me, these people only believe in multiculturalism when it suits them! That's why anti free-speech Muslims take Victorians to court

REASON
Thanx for the opportunity to share something on the matters you raised. (I appreciate the passion by the way :)

With regard to most of those events/actions you put forward, can I urge you to do a simple exercise. Look for any justification for them in the New Testament. The gospels/Teaching/ life of Christ is a good place to start. If you don't find any justification, please refrain from referring to them as 'Christian' in character.

As for me being 'evil' I have to agree. Paul said "I am the foremost of sinners, for I persecuted the Church of God", I haven't quite reached systematic murder yet, (as Paul had). .so perhaps I have a way to go. But that my social comments are distasteful in the extreme to some of different persuasion, I have to agree.

NOT EASY BEING.
I take on board what you shared, and have to simply point 'To Christ' and see if our Lord taught/urged such things ?

PERICLES/RHIAN

I am Christ's first, Australian Second. (shock horror :) and now I can already hear the howls of 'you hypocrite'.. well slowww down all.
The IMPORTANT point to make, is that there is no conflict between the two. We are are called to be 'salt' and 'light' not an ak47. We are called to be subject to the authorities, (Romans 13). But I make the point, that in a democracy, our voice and values are as valid as anyones, and if some bright spark deny's me ham sambo's, I'll make a noise about it.

We then see by the example of the early Christians, that even persecution is not enough to extinguish the Word in peoples hearts.
I know of no example prior to Constantine, (300yrs)where "Christians" used violence, after that, it was 'State' run.

If the State called on us to worship John Howard's image, or to deny Christ, under pain of death, then there would be a lot of executed Christians, and not from any terrorism, as we will not do that.

BD, there's a name for your claim that violence was employed by the state, rather than by Christians. It's called sophistry. You seem to forget that the separation of church and state is both relatively recent and imperfectly realised. One of the earliest proponents of a secular political system, the C14th Marsiglio of Padua, was taking direct aim at the Holy Roman Empire in his work. It's not that easy to deny the Christian provenance of an empire headed by the pope. Funnily enough, BD, Marsiglio was greatly influenced by Averroes (also known as Ibn Saud). Guess the ethnicity. By the way, BD - it's a ham sandwich, nothing more. Get over it. You do yourself no credit carrying on about what is, when all's said and done, a trifling thing. Or by whinging about local planning issues in Bullscrotum, Wisconscin, or wherever it was, because Islam is involved. I warn you now, one more ham sandwich comment, and I'll start making tasteless jokes about Mama Cass.

David:

You say that "The IMPORTANT point to make, is that there is no conflict between the two"

Quite so.

Incidentally, I think there's a better scriptural analogy than yours - when the Pharisees tried to trick Jesus with a politically loaded question about whether His primary loyalties lay with the state or His faith, He gave the answer “Render … unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's” (Matthew 22.15-22; Mark 12.13-17; Luke 20.20-26)

In other words – as a hypothetical question, it’s a false dichotomy, so get nicked. Or, as you say, “there is no conflict between the two.”

You are right to say that, when absolutely forced to make a choice between allegiance to the State and to their faith, many of the early Christians chose their God. So would you, so (I hope) would I.

I don’t see how we can impose different standards on Muslim Australians, Jewish Australians, Sikh Australians ….

When we demand of any Australian that they prove their loyalty by affirming a priority of allegiances that we do not share, we are indeed hypocritical (not to say also insulting, bigoted, and lots of other unpleasant adjectives). And our motives are no more innocent than those long-ago Pharisees.

There is no attacks on the muslim community because Australians are not tribalistic unthinking animals, unlike some. This is not a testament to any multicultural policy, rather it is testament to our tolerance and ,in some cases, over-understanding. Have a look at the statistics(if Don Weatherburn hasn't already burnt them all in the great witch hunt) or check out the comments by ex-police commisioners or ex-police officers such as Tim Priest; muslim gangs amd asian gangs roam sydney selling drugs, intimidating civilians and gang attacking(even raping as we've seen)innocent predominantly white males. Darling Harbour or George St on a Friday night. Our people are being ethnically attacked , bashed and many a year are murdered all by these racist gangs. Still, our culture of understanding and non-tribalism (non-mob mentality)has not led group of white vigilantes even once down to Bankstown or Cabramatta to break up some shops etc. Not even once has there been a racial attack by a gang of white men on an ethnic. After 911, while there was talk of a backlash against muslims, I clearly remember that about 2 mosques were spray painted on, a couple had their windows broken compared to twelve churches being attacked, four were 100 years old and were burned to the ground. Some backlash. It is the same with Indonesia. A group of Asiatic-muslim supremecist racists blow us up in Bali, Mariot and our Embassy and there was no retaliation, why would there be against innocent asian muslims here in Aust. However, on the other side, when some harmless white powder was sent to the Indonesian embassy there was open debate about a possible backlash or boycott of some sort. Who is racist here? European Australains are the glue that holds this multicultural mess together. And it is only a mess because some of the groups we invited are coloured Neo-Nazis, or KKK.

ANOMIE .. 'mama cass' ? err *curious look*

RHIAN
..oops.. hang on, before I speak, let me finish wiping off the blood from the 'bigoted,insulting,hypocritical' wounds inflicted by your last line :))

I'm kidding. As Scripture says "Come, let us reason together"....

Following through on that, Caesar has a responsibility for national security (Romans 13) and given the abundance of evidence of how Islam behaves in Western societies, its ingrained inflexible attitudes to others (Hamtramck USA being a classical example)
http://www.detnews.com/2004/metro/0404/26/a01-133933.htm
and outright statements by prominent Muslims (caught when addressing their own mob) and coupled with the recent London events, and the basic Islamic mindset, suggest strongly that restructuring social policy on immigration and multiculturalism are wise moves toward those interests.

Matthew 23
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]

Fighting words ! :) but this describes Islam as much as the Pharisees.
I'm not a universalist I'm afraid, I believe in sheep and goats, and John 14.6 if you get my drift.
If we don't address our evolving social situation with sensible policy, we will be blessed with the sentiments of fellow poster W.S.Burns which is how the 'man in the street' reacts when confronted with a sense of outrage+powerlessness.

On ya Burnsy, but cool the emotion a bit mate, a few sources would helpful when quoting Kaysar Trad ok... :)

Rhian, I'm sure both of us would be the first to pick up a bruised or battered Irfan or Fellow Human and nurse them back to health, as we would for a wounded Nazi soldier, hoping to show them that its not "them" we detest, but the ideas they represent.(and the impact those ideas would have on our own lives and social fabric)

We should apply standards to religions, based on their specific goals.

Buddhism is about personal enlightenment, not political restructure. Christianity is about 'repentance, forgiveness, renewal,salt and light', Islam is about cultural, political, spiritual domination of all others

David,

“Islam is about cultural, political, spiritual domination of all others”? Ouch. I’m no Muslim, but I thought Islam was about peace and conformity to the will of God.

Sure, there are Muslim fanatics who want to place the whole world under fundamentalist political and religious authority, and who are willing to use violence to do it. There have also been (and still are) Christian exclusivists and fanatics who want to do much the same thing, bolstered by texts like John 14.6 (I am the way; I am the truth and I am the life; no one comes to the Father except by me) and Matthew 28.18-20 (“All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations…”). Think of the religious rationalisations behind Western empire building, for example.

Both types of fanatics are wrong, both are dangerous and misguided and arrogant, and neither should be taken as representative of their faith or its practitioners.

Incidentally, I don’t equate either Irfan or Fellow Human with Nazi soldiers, wounded or otherwise.

Dear Rhian
you thought "Islam means peace and conformity to the will of Allah"

On the surface, it does. Now lets look a little deeper.

How did Mohammed the founder, 'manifest' that 'conformity' in his own life, which forms the basis and example for every Muslim on 'how to be' those things.
-He tortured
-He murdered (in cold blood, because people 'teased' him)
-He carried out mass murder.(Banu Qurayza)
-He stole, and enslaved.
-When his wives became jealous of his unfair glowing pride at his MISStress/slave who conceived through him sleeping with her, suddenly there is a convenient revelation to shut them up, and justify him.

All of the above, became a pattern in his life and in the growth of Islam, which quickly becomes an 'Islamic State' of which he is the head and which strikes terror into all other tribes of the Arabian Peninsula

All non Muslims are given the choice of death, fleeing for their lives to the desert, or embracing Islam and serving him or 'dhimmitude' if you were Christian or Jew, where under the Charter of Omar (the first caliph after Mohammed) you were required to wear distinctive dress with special markings (Remember the Jews of Germany ?) You were not even allowed to make your grief for the dead audible to Muslims. (and 10 other rules)

That, is the Islamic founders version of what you described. I refrained from using the many colorful adjectives which 'hate sites' use in conjunction with these factual events.

Contemporary mainstream 'minority' Islam is quite 'tame' yet as you saw from my example in the link. they will still seek to impose their tradition and will on the majority. (did you read it ?)

Your verses about 'All Authority is given to me/ go make disciples' has to be balanced with "As the Father sent me, so I send you" and we look at His self sacrificing life. Muslims will rarely actually deny the events I mentioned, but they will seek to justify them "All things from God are good"

John 14.6 is valid, we all have free will.

How dare Waleed Aly say multiculturalism is working! It's not working for the white underclass who live among the all too often ethnocentric, racist middle-eastern & Asian diaspora's out in Sydney's west. Who am I to say this? I grew up in that white underclass in Cabramatta/Fairifeld in the late '80's & early '90's, being offered heroin by Asians twice a day on my way to & from the train station, a place that has become the drug capital of our entire nation! I remember middle-eastern youth who would go out "Aussie bashing" as they called it, on weekends, targeting whites for no reason other than skin colour. Cabramatta/Fairfield & Bankstown, with it's adjoining areas, are the two major crime capitals of our nation, I can't believe the ungratefulness of these communities we so openly welcomed! Ali writes that it's unfair to attack Muslims as they "allegedly" have in Britain (the word allegedly has been used a lot lately, by Muslim apologists for terrorism), which sounds ridiculous when one finds that Britain's criminal activity is filled with racist bashings on whites, racist gang-rapes (sound familiar?) on whites by gangs of Pakistani's, who grew up in Britain! (uncovering their extreme racism). Ali talks of mosque windows being broken, as if thats a backlash? Whites have been copping it for years Ali, with middle-eastern thugs harrassing any female for sex that walks past the entrance to the local Westfields, or as they lay on Bondi beach, it's disgustingly unacceptable. The left is waking up too Ali, starting to see right through your type who talks of free speech, a concept unheard of in Islam, that you use for your own purposes. Muslims believe that Islamic Law, is based on the word of God, which means that they are against human rights, as Sharia treats non-Muslims little better than those thugs did as they gang raped those poor white girls in Sydney, or Paris, or London, or Copenhagen, or Stockholm, anywhere there are Islamic diaspora's sadly. The pendulum is swinging back though.... soon you won't be able to hide behind political correctness.....

"MULTI- cultural Australia" from the 2001 Census

Total PERSONS.

18,972,350

Australian CITIZENS

16,559,774

Ancestry by Birthplace of Parents, Northern European (English,Scottish,Irish,German,Dutch) (includes some overlapping responses)

10,176,063

On those 2 statistics alone, there is a very strong argument for the prevailing culture to be the 'JudaoChristian' as it is the background of all the countries comprising this HUGE slice of Australian citizenship

There are around 7,000,000 from 'Australian' birth (both parents born here) and among these, extrapolating the obvious proportions reflected in the 'by birthplace' figure, would contain a VERY large number of those from North West European background. So the total figure for the :

"JudaoChristian CULTURAL heritage" is a vast majority.

Those specifically claiming 'Christian' heritage/adherance is

12,764,342

It is not without good reason that people of the JudaoChristian heritage, and of Northern European background, can claim to be the 'prevailing culture' of this great land of Australia, and surprise surprise, our government (with all its faults) tends to reflect that very thing.

The number of 'no religion' respondents is around 3,000,000 more of a 'voice in the wilderness' than a valid claimant on
running the country. The hostility shown by Atheists like 'Alchemist' and Xena, leaves little doubt about who's interests they would promote if they did run the country.

So, we 'godbotherers' are a pretty hefty slice of the Austrlaian cultural landscape, and I dare say have an inherant right to preserve that culture, and that any person from another cultural background, should think twice before coming here, and consider whether they can feel comfortable in it. If they come here to CHANGE it, simple response. Don't come. In fact, I'd go so far as to say, that a question on our immigration applications should include something to this effect, and a committment to assimilate, which can be reviewed from time to time and citizen ship will depend on the level of compliance with this pre-given committment.

The main problem with multiculturalism is that the notion of integration with other cultures (not assimilation with a 'dominant' culture) does not need to happen. In effect, people live within their own community geographically and demographically isolated from the rest.

This spreads fear and hatred. Furthermore when people read in the newspapers of gang-rapes targetting "Aussie" women or a community leader saying that males cannot help but rape women because of what they dress. This is the face of multiculturalism - the values of a separate community being transported to our own nation where such values are not welcome by the majority.

Do not get me wrong, I am in favour of people immigrating to our nation. I am a product of multiculturalism and I am sure that everyone here actually has had contact with multicultural Australia. But therein lies a problem; when people do not see themselves as "Australian" how can we live in an inclusive society?

In the United States, even if you are black you see yourself as "African American" or you are "Latino American", all the time the common thread of identity runs through them. Quite frankly that does not occur in Australia where we have allowed people from different, varied backgrounds live amongst people from the same culture, separating themselves from the wider community and fostering the problems which we see here today.

The problems in Australia are no where near as bad as that in the UK. They have been too liberal for too long and the backlash will continue for some time.

We can avoid that, but we have to act now. Greater "civics"-style lessons in schools promoting our common history from the Aboriginals 40,000 years ago to the founding of the British colonies to the creation of the Australian Federation to now will instil within each new migrant and children of migrants a sense of 'Australiana'. If we fail to do this, then a second generation of people can grow up with the hatreds and values brought to them which is incompatible with the wider community.

Multiculturalism is working is it? The only people who are multicultural are the white anglo-saxon's who founded this land....everyone else we've brought here are utterly ethnocentric, shown in the forming of ghetto's, the disgusting crime rate with certain ethnic groups, and frauduolent behaviour towards our institutions from these groups, i.e, welfare fraud, drug running. These things are racism! Cabramatta/Fairfield & Bankstown are racism by their very nature!

My biggest problem with 'multiculturalism' as State policy is that it imposes a kind of national denial upon the Australian people concerning the ingrained racism of their dominant Anglo-European culture. It has become very un-PC to acknowledge that our dominant culture is and always has been racist to its core, certainly since 1788. Instead, we watch SBS, eat ethnic food and walk across bridges in denial that a substantial proportion of the population retains the kinds of literally hateful ideology expressed in many of the anti-Muslim posts above.

'Multiculturalism' only works at the level of actual human interaction - at the workplace, in our schools and universities, in our shopping centres, on our sporting fields - and only then to the extent that individual Australians can consciously reject the anachronistic racist ideology that, while it may have been effective in creating the kind of society we have inherited, is now well past its use-by date if we are to prosper in the global environment.

As is evident from the content and tenor of many of the posts above, some of us still have a very long way to go. Ideologies of division and hatred, whether they are based on religious texts, political ideologies or blind tradition, have no place in contemporary Australian society and culture.

I can only echo Garra's words. I have been dismayed and appalled at much of the racist sentiments expressed by many posters at this forum.

Australia cannot contribute at a global level with this level of blind hatred.

As Trinity has posted - there is only one planet that can sustain us and it is by default - multicultural.

Xena, garra it appears to me that there are two main positions for opposing multiculturalism
- blind hatred. True racism.
- a belief that it is not working. Fear etc.

The first position is one that no amount of debate or discussion will resolve. We just have to hope that their kids grow up a bit more tolerant.

I'm willing to assume that a proportion of the second are able to consider the possibility that there may be ways of addressing their concerns. Lumping everybody with concerns about multiculturalism in the same boat is probably counter productive.

It might be more relevant to talk about the places multiculturalism is working and what factors break down the ethnic clinging over time.

Do those factors apply to the Muslim community (especially those being taught that they cannot have non muslim friends)?

Are there real issues we need to address or is this like most immigration concern of the past a passing issue which will settle over time?

I don't have the knowledge to answer some of these questions and would like to see open debate about some of those issues between those trying to reach understanding.

As for myself I have greek and tasmanian neighbours and a couple of my best friends originated in Latin America. Not a broad multicultural life. I can't think of any Muslims that I know socially so I am interested to hear from those with a better understanding of the issues.

R0bert

I sometimes wonder whether the US is a good or a bad example to use in the multiculturism debate. It always seems to be used in the context - "look at America, they know how to do it, everyone salutes the flag every day...", but is that really the case? Certainly, my own contacts over there seem to have pretty much the same ambivalence towards immigrants that we (as a society) do, and I have no reason to believe they are unrepresentative.

I felt that Seang rather overstated the case when he said "[i]n the United States, even if you are black you see yourself as "African American" or you are "Latino American", all the time the common thread of identity runs through them". This is a very liberal-rose-coloured view of the reality I have seen over there.

The mood seems to be that there is some sort of fine line that can be drawn, one side is "they can come here as long as they behave like us" and the other is "they are all welcome, and it's up to us to accept them as they are". I don't see it being as simple as that, if only because there are quite a few differences in the definition of the "us" we want them to behave like, when it comes to describing an Australian.

Garra,

for once you actually make some sense. Well done. I understand your point.
You correctly observe that there is an 'ingrained racism' in the inherited Anglo_European dominant culture. So, may I suggest that the solution to that problem is to address it.
I have never argued for any 'racial superiority' or even 'cultural superiority' of the Anglo-European dominant/prevailing culture. But I HAVE argued that it should be respected.

Have none of you been in a group where you know your position in the peck order, and suddenly some other person comes in, and usurps that position, leaving you now marginalized ? :) come on, be honest. Did you 'enjoy' that experience ? Well extrapolate that to a 'cultural' level and you get my drift I'm sure.

Anyone who seeks to marginalize a dominant culture is playing with social fire I'd say.

PREVAILING CULTURE AND RACIAL HARMONY... is possible. It will only occur when minor cultures recognize they are in the midst of and respect the prevailing. Garra, being the Malaysia expert that you are .. would be aware of the issue of racial discrimination in the public service and the policy of placing Malays/Muslism in key positions. I support the idea of Malays in the key military positions (due to race riots in 69)
but simply giving the choice/key jobs to malays across the public servie sector is blatant cultural greed.
If they placed more emphasis on 'maintaining stability' by giving just key positions I wouldn't gripe, but it goes much further than that.

So, the idea should be that while maintaining a cultural dominance, job opportunities should not be looked on as virtual 'war booty'.

Xena,

there you go 'hu-hum' AGAIN with the promotion of the 'hate' thing. (getting a bit weary mate) so you don't rate a response this time.

PERICLES. Very true, about who the 'us' is, in our case, we can point to certain statistics, but to be truthful, most of that 'us' is blithely unaware of their cultural characteristics because until recently they have rarely been challenged.
This is changing.

PEOPLE 'Multiculturalism'

In 1967, I was 19, and in the RAAF. One of our guys had been mercilessly beaten almost to death by some 'Sharpies'. Those old enough to remember, will know that it was impossible to goto a train station, bus station or pretty much anywhere publically without being in fear of your life and limb from that group. They were EVERYwhere and there were thousands of them.

One night, our group of Airforce guys (around 100) decided we would try to do something about it, and in full uniform we went into Melbourne, patrolled the streets, looking for Sharpies. Those we found were 'dealt with' in very convincing terms. The police we encountered had only one request. "Just leave enough to arrest".

Anarchy had overtaken us.

This is 2005

if you read nothing else I've ever written here, please at least read THIS:

http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=581

Then, I'd value any and all reactions, specially from 'gentle' Robert.
From Xena and Trinity.

If you can stand to read this without being sickened to your stomach,ashamed of your country (specially NSW) then please use your keyboard and say something to someone about this, who matters.

Remember the French vs Algeria soccer friendly?

http://www.brookings.edu/fp/cusf/analysis/islam.htm

BOAZ

Hi David - thanks for the referral to Tim Priest's paper. It is an exceptional read. I have heard Tim speak on radio on many occasions prior to his retirement. This paper is consistent with his previous assertions. When will the do-gooders listen?

On what grounds has Peter Ryan now become an anti-terrorist expert? Beats me. Heard him on radio with John Laws last week.

I lived in Cabramatta back in the late sixties - lasted about 6 months. It was scarey then. The last train I caught in NSW was filled with people of Middle Eastern and Asian appearance. I was the only white person. No-one was speaking English. I got "the finger" from several young men of Middle Eastern appearance. I have said this on another thread - some posters suggested that I am racist. I am not. One of my close friends is an Aboriginal person. My husband and I left Sydney mid 2002 never to return!

To the "do-gooders" - try and sit on the train as I did. Try and walk down the street as I did. A most frightening experience.

I have taught Police Studies Students from the Academy when they were on placement with our mental health service. They all said the same thing as university nursing students - along these lines: "We don't get enough hands on experience. We are not ready for the real world".

BOAZ_David, I've had a read of the referenced link. If true it is scary stuff but looks more like a problem with our judicial system and police management than a racial issue.

It seems to me that a lot of racial groups have been noted for disobeying our laws. In Queensland it used to be Vietnamise and mass breaking of fishing laws, I don't know if that is still happening. I went prawning at Jacobs Well and had a good look at that operation. Hard on the environment but less dangerous than standover merchants, drug sellers etc.

I would like to see that stuff dealt with much more firmly, for the new arrivals make it easier to get in and easier to get kicked out. At the same time I have the impression that many of these issues settle down over time. The spurge of the new found freedoms kind of thing. How do we help people of "Middle Eastern appearance" settle into our communites (the ones who are not doing well so far)?

Glad I live in Queensland and not Sydney by the sound of it.

R0bert

What Walheed Aly means is that "Multiculturalism works" for Muslims, that is. Under Multiculturalism Muslims get a free pass, having rights without any responsibility.

If there have been little trouble with the Islamic community (of course, who cares about rape and hate literature!) it is because of the relatively small numbers of Muslims. As the number of Muslims grow, it is certain that the problems will get more serious. My understanding is this hate and anger is the very essence of Islam. Muslims suffer, and they want others to suffer, too. Oh yes, and its all your fault.

Have you noticed that when anybody protests Muslim behavior, it is a "backlash" by "racists". When Imans in the Mosques preach their hatred towards all other religions, and even against those host countries that welcomed them, it is a "mistake" and has nothing to do with the "real, peaceful Islam".

This is important... Keep your eyes on Europe (particularly Holland, Sweden and Norway) if you want to see how Multiculturalism is working. Dont trust big Media or Government, because they refuse to face reality. Talk to people from those countries, if possible, or check out these European blogs that report on immigration matters:
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/
http://bearstrong.net/warblog/
http://enough.typepad.com/
http://www.peaktalk.com/
http://www.zachtei.nl/
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/

Things are going to get worse, because so many people don't care. Bombs on buses can happen in the US and Australia, and a Beslin type situation is cannot be ruled out. This is sad and tragic, but it is also Multiculturalism.

John, Aka Kactuz

Why is it that I see so many fringe dwellers on this forum when these issues are being discussed? Why don't you guys (women could not be stupid enough to subscribe to such infantile views) just stay at Peter Faris QC's blog where you belong?

Irfan, do not be so quick to dismiss the ability of women to subscribe to infantile views! all PEOPLE can be stupid, as so many of these forums have demonstrated.

Irfan, perhaps its you who is the 'feral fringe dweller" :)

Question:
do you accept that the dominamt prevailing culture of Australia is Anglo/celtic/northern European ? (12.7million out of 16million citizens at 2001 census who also identify with the Judao Christian tradition.)

(no lectures on history please, I know it all)

-That government and all our institutions should rightly reflect this heritage ?

-Do you agree to respect that cultural balance ?

Do you commmit NOT to seek to change it in any way which could socially or culturally advantage your own, and disadvantage that predominant culture ?

Do you recognize that to do otherwise is a cultural and social insult of the most racist, intolerant and perverse kind ?

Lets see how 'fringe' you are :)

Oh no its the Spanish Inquisition.

What?

No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

BD

I thought you believed in god - I didn't think you believe you are god.

And this on a thread that is about the lack of retaliation in Australia.

No one is under any obligation to answer your inquistition as Johnny quite accurately described it.

The soccer match match that occured between France and Algeria following Sptember 11 really does sum up what we are facing. It was appalling.

I read the articles that BOAZ supplied, and indeed they do make for scary reading. It is sadly true that racial-based crimes are increasingly following against the majority, but in the elite media it appears as though the majority are at fault.

Until we face facts, ethnic crime will continue.

BOAZ_David, do you acept that evangelical christians are a minority in this country?

Do you agree not to do or support any action which might seek to impose evangelical christian standards on the rest of the community?

etc, etc.

David, almost all of us are part of some kind of minority. Me I'm a whitish agnostic straight single dad - somewhat less than 50% of the population therefore a minority. That does not mean I have no right to attempt to influence the direction this society takes. Any person who chooses to make their home in this country has a legitimate place in the debate about this countries future.

I would agree that those who find the dominate culture so unacceptable that they will use any means to destry it should not come (or leave if they know of a better place). That is different to legitimate involvement in the body politic.

R0bert

Dear Mr Garra,
If you actually take a look at the world for once, you will realise that all of Asia is ethnocentric and racist as they have institutionalised discrimination (such as Koreans in Japan), the richest muslim countries in the gulf employ the largest migrant worker cluster in the world ( mostly from SE Asia) who -if you check the NGOs- are treated like slaves and dogs, Africa is riddled with tribalism and slavery and exploitatian.

How are Western nations racist if we are the only nations that have laws protecting all sorts of minorities, we have along with many other Western nations undergone massive demographic changes (ABS confirms in Aust. that Anglos are only 8.5 million of the total 20). This has not led to any backlash or attacks on ethnic groups, infact it is the minorities who attack us. I challenge you OR ANYONE ELSE on this site to take a good look at all sorts of statisitc sites and you will see that racist gang attacks on whites are extremely common(although I personally know that the coward D.Weatherburn at ABS tries to hide these stats, such as blending middle eastern groups with the broad "caucasian" title), and not even once has there been a similar incident in reverse, other than some mentally ill person calling them names. Not to mention the fact that these communities have established themselves quite graciously as Aust. crime capitals(i.e.Bankstown,Punchbowl,Cabramatta/Fairfield). And it is only after putting up with this for thirty years (murders, gangs, drugs, all racism) that now just a few people are actually only talking about it(one nation) and they are called racists.

You say all the postings are racist, but if you would have no problem believing them if they were posted by your ethnic pets saying that they "feel funny at the shops". Why wouldn't paranoid ethnocentric racists think that everyone is staring at them? Especially if they know in the back of their minds about their cultures' crime problem etc, and that this culture in Aust. critically analyses issues such as placing bedsheets on their wives.