My apologies Kalweb, I should have restrained myself. However I react strongly (as others on the other side of the debate do) when I see people fudging the issue.

I notice in your response that you fail to acknowledge that the terrorists in London (or New York, or one day, God forbid, Melbourne or Sydney) did their bloody deeds in the name of their religion Islam, and further we can say with a high degree of probability that in many parts of the world including Australia there were many, many Muslims who applauded their deeds. Failure to acknowledge what is the driving force behind the bombers both dishonours them and seems somewhat duplicitous. As Samuel Huntington once said (quoting from memory) "Islam has bloody borders and bloody entails". And as the main article says, that is a worry to all peace loving Austraslians.

Again Kalweb, I apologise for the "he" and not a "she" - I don't recognise Kalweb as a name - never come across it before, but then there are a lot of people on this thread using a nom de plume, in many cases disguising their gender. David is my first name and I am a "he".

Dear Kalweb,
its clear you have a peaceful and loving heart. I plead with you, not to let this cloud your mind to the fundamental core issue and reality and the 55 prophets (the London dead) who all testify to 'something' about Islam (not Muslims in general... do you understand what I'm saying here ? ) No one as far as I have seen, is condemning ALL Muslims, specially not Irfan or Fellow Human.

Now, if Islam is peaceful (and in some references of Quran and Hadith it is) ask yourself this, 'what' is turning these well educated, evena special needs teacher) Muslims into Bombs ?

Some have suggested 'cult psychology', I suggest that this is part of it, but doesn't go far enough.

When we ask "what caused Corrie Ten Boon, to confront a former SS officer (later in life) who had been in charge of her own concentration camp where she was treated with unspeakable misery and cruelty and to say "I forgive you"... you can go immediately to Christs words "Love your enemies" etc. its clear, and its based on Christ himself.

Now, I seriously doubt that our Lord would have us deny or shrink from treating any other faith with similar scrutiny.

In this case, we are trying to point out the 'core' reasons for the "only" religous faith I know of from which some adherants are carrying on acts of terror directly in the name of its own faith.

Kalweb, please look at this carefully. In my posts, I've been showing factual, verifiable core issues. I have not said in even one post that people should despise or hate "muslims" I don't suggest that.

When a doctor says "This is going to hurt you, but not harm you" he is giving you treatment that while painful is for your well being.

Just as one cannot justify National Socialism's doctrines of Jews being sub human, inspite of the nice things Adolph said, and did, one cannot separate the prophet of Islam from his own deeds which interpret the Quran.

Please see my 'nutbags' post.

BBBrad, BD

“Terrorist does what they do because they study Koran, hadith”
You are half correct. They do what they do because they fail to understand Islam and have someone who is misleading them for a terror agenda. Let me give you an example from your writing: 2:216. It actually is the end of the part that starts with 2:190 “fight those who fight you but do not transgress for Allah loveth not transgressors” (ie only defend yourselves, soldier vs soldier and not initiate/ preempt). Furthermore, the Koran is very clear on civilians ‘who who kills an innocent soul will be treated as if he killed mankind”.
Terrorist use ‘half interpretations’ to brainwash the victims who destroy their lives and thousands others. Terrorism targets Muslims and non Muslims, just look at what is happening in Iraq on a daily basis including blowing up mosques. All they want is global chaos.

I believe Imams can do a lot more on youth education and should seek wider support from the community. As for ‘why Mohamed wrote what he wrote’, we don’t believe he had the authoring choice! :):)

Philo,

Muslim community is not ‘la resistance francaise’. The Melbourne arrests were from tips from the Muslim community because last thing we want is terror in our name.

GBushbred,

Islam and Muslims can easily adopt democracy and liberal values and here is a view:

- There is a concept in Islam called the ‘shurah’ council (quiet similar to today’s senate on how it works).
- There is an advice by the prophet: “is not a believer he who rules his people and knows there is a fitter leader out there than him”.
Sounds like a good first step to preach democracy to Muslim societies. Why it is not happening? Dictators perhaps?

Kalweb,

Between www.answering-islam.org and www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com you should be able to get a balanced views on what Islam is.

AK

Actually I feel that you have all proved each others points. The one thing that stands out is that the divide within religion is still as wide as it ever was. Muslims blaming christians, Christians blaming muslims. Each one giving their own definition of history. Sad thing is, the facts are that all religion is violent and has been throughout history. The confused philo defies us to provide the name of anyone from the catholic or protestant church that has known of, or supported terrorist acts. Just one word philo, Ireland, on both sides. How many dozens of clerics do you want, Paisley is a good start. The problem with religion, is that it is so negative towards anyone that doesn't fall under its spell. As to the Victorian act, well that is just a sign of another religion, called politics, trying to assert its suppresive authority via the back door. I see from both sides, a total lack of tolerance and understanding of what the real world is about. It is absolutely clear that religion, all religion is at the root of the evil in the world. If you removed religion from the world, there would be little left to fight about. The religious are so lacking in mental security, that they have to try and convert everyone via what ever means they can. Fanatical Evangilism is the catch word of all religions, because their cause is so insecure, they can't get people to beleive in them other than to threaten, demonise, conquer or destroy. All religios scripture is filled with violence towards non beleivers. That is borne out when you look at where the world is today and where it has been over history. History is filled to the brim with the wholesals massacre of peoples the world over in the name of some god, all relgions.

Boaz,

You mentioned VERY hateful things are said by muslims against jews. Here are some quotes from the Jewish Talmud:

Moed Kattan 17a : If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Non-Jews are Not Human. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men"). Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a in which Gentile women are designated animals ("she-asses").

Sanhedrin 58b: Jews are Divine. If a heathen (Gentile) hits a Jew, THE GENTILE MUST BE KILLED. Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God.

Sanhedrin 57a: O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews. A Jew need not pay a Christian ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

Baba Kamma 37b: Jews Have Superior Legal Status. "If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."

Baba Mezia 24a: Jews May Steal from Non-Jews. If a Jew finds an object lost by a Gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b).

Sanhedrin 76a: God will not spare a Jew who "returns a lost article
to a Cuthean..."

Sanhedrin 57a: JEWS MAY ROB AND KILL NON-JEWS. When a Jew murders a Christian ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a Gentile he may keep.

Baba Kamma 37b: Gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."

Baba Kamma 113a: Jews May Lie to Non-Jews . JEWS MAY USE LIES ("subterfuges") TO CIRCUMVENT A GENTILE.

Yebamoth 98a: Non-Jewish Children Sub-Human. All Gentile children are animals.

Abodah Zarah 36b: Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

Abodah Zarah 22a-22b: Gentiles prefer sex with cows

Muslims shouldn't be singled out for religious intolerance.

Josh.
thank you for that rather comprehensive post.

Actually, I don't recall ANY of my posts suggesting "Muslims say bad things about Jews"... (I referred the readers to one web site, where you may have found a diatribe of Quranic and Hadith quotes against Jews by a Muslim) but I haven't to my knowledge done what you say of me .. have I ? (show please)

Now. your posts :) I smile a bit because I was also sucked in at one stage by the same propoganda, until I did my homework and CHECKED THE SOURCES :)... now, I suggest you do some homework, and you will probably end up rather red faced as you discover as I did, that a considerable degree of what you posted is in fact derived from Nazi and Communist sources. Further, you will find that some of the references simply don't exist, also, that many of them are either misquioted or taken wildly out of context, stopping at critical points to convey a different message.

In truth, you need to goto the actual documents cited, not the 'hate site' from which you appear to have gleaned them. In fact, a lot of that was quoted by a Catholic Bishop on National US TV some time back and it caused quite a stir.

My contention all along has been that the Islamist bombings are fuelled by specific aspects of Quranic teaching, and Hadith tradition and Historical narratives. Until they condemn the actions of their own prophet for these things, they won't go away.

P.S. I would not disagree that many hateful things have been said and done by ALL faiths over the centuries, including Christianity.
My other contention is that we should evaluate all such behavior in the light of the 'foundation' i.e. Scripture, specially for Christians, the life and teaching of Christ.

Saltshakers did a good report on the "Jewish hate" stuff u refer to, with original source material

I appreciate your posts, and they contribute to all of us going closer to truth. Bless u :)