Irfan wrote:
"If we are not for ourselves, who is for us? If we care only for
ourselves, what are we? If we don't love now, when will we
start?" is a misquotation of Hillel ; the original is in the singular, i.e. "I" not "we" throughout. If it said "we", it would, as the author wishes it to, suggest a collective Jewish responsibility towards the non-Jewish world, whereas in reality, it suggests the responsibility of the individual Jew towards other Jews."

The Hillel quote goes: "If I am not for myself, who is for me? and if I am only for myself, what am I? and if not now, when?" I'm hardly a religious scholar, but I've always interpreted that one as referring to relationships among people in general ("I" as a human being, not just as a Jew). However, I suppose Hillel, as a rabbi, would have been mainly addressing Jews.

Another often-quoted saying comes from Hillel being challenged to sum up the entire Torah in one sentence. He replied "What is hateful to thee, do not unto thy fellow man: this is the whole Law; the rest is mere commentary." Again, sounds to me like it's meant for everyone; not just Jews. In any case, like the words of many great sages, this saying seems quite universally applicable, and living by it would keep most of us out of most of the kinds of trouble we seem to get ourselves into and inflict upon others. And of course it's a principle expressed in other traditions as well - "Do unto others..." etc.

Irfan - that's a very touching story. As long there are people like your mother and her friend around there's hope.

IRFAN....

You said "B-D, it seems to me that you are determined to hate muslims, jews, malays and anyone else that does not agree with you."

You curse me in one side of the mouth and bless me with the other ? :)

If I might ask, 'how' and 'where' do you derive 'hate' from any of my posts against classes of people ? Please answer this and show good cause why I should not be greivously offended at the remark. Not only do I now "hate" Muslims generally (per you) but now, added to the list is "Malays, Jews and all who disagree" ummm... how in Gods name (and I mean that) did you get 'Jews' being hated out of my post ?

The only mention I made of them was in an affectionate tone. (which is how I DO regard them as per Romans 9 have a read.)

That was a kick below the belt Irfan, designed to derail the actual debate and turn it into an 'us/them' hate match. Well, it won't work.
I've focused on the 'issue' at all times as far as I can recollect mate. The issue being as it grew, about Christ and the Apostles compared and contrased with Mohammed and his companions.

Next you will have me hating all 'non wasps' (forgetting that I'm married to a rather well suntanned tribal girl)

Irfan, do you 'hate' the Labor party ? (given your liberal connection)?
For the past few days they have been deliberately misrepresenting the IR policy, saying 'workers will only get 2 weeks annual leave' when they KNOW damn well, that the 2 weeks loss is OPtional and in exchange for CASH, and that it CAME from the WA LABOR Government idea.

I don't believe (unless u can show me) that I've misrepresented Islam.
Ash gave the 'sugar coated' version in the other thread, I gave the 'other side of the coin'

Remember, the judgement we give, is the one by which we will also be judged. Think twice b4 saying 'you hate me/us/them'.

Interesting article.
I agree that on a personal level people around the world can relate to each other regardless of their beliefs.

However, if we examine the scriptures purported by the Muslim faith (ie the Koran), it seems "Allah" preaches otherwise:

The dinner table
[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Children of Israel
[17.58] And there is not a town but We will destroy it before the day of resurrection or chastise it with a severe chastisement; this is written in the Divine ordinance.

(these references are taken from the Koran translation at the following website http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/ ) let me know if you think they are inacurrate.)

Dungbeetle,

THe transalation you refer to is interesting.
- The first verse the word does not mean "friends" but "Awleya"
which is leader in either a spiritual or physical form.

- The second reference is in Il Israa and that was a general term about what does God do to those who are ungrateful in General. It wasn't adressing the Israelite specifically.

Best treatment Jews had was by muslims, thats our and their history.

Regards

AK

B-D wrote:

"The issue being as it grew, about Christ and the Apostles compared and contrased with Mohammed and his companions."

Wrong again B-D. The article concerned the friendship between a Muslim and a Jewish woman - it was you who introduced the non-sequitur of Christ and the Apostles.

However, you've demonstrated time and again in these forums that your religious obsession renders you incapable of anything like a balanced view of the world. You may not acknowledge your feelings towards others as hate, but they are evidently experienced by the objects of your aggressive crusade as that despicable emotion.

Any religion preaches own superiority and exclusiveness-otherwise there is no point for a formal spirituality. The question remains to what degree a particular one does.

United against the Crusaders, the Arabs and the Jews are still a threat to not employing them in de-facto nazi Australia and elsewhere because of them being Arabs or Jews.

That is why traditional inter-nations conflicts either in the Middle East, the Balkans or in any other place on a globe serve well too many geo-politicians