Dear Helen,
A brief note to thank you for an informative and interesting article. Not being a parent I loath to comment on what I see going on around me. But I do feel much of what you have highlighted is very much the truth of the current world. When a society forgives their leaders a lie (or two), what does it say to the future generations.

Perhaps I can liken it to a change in the Qld police force in 1989, when they changed their slogan from 'Firmness with Courtesy' to 'With Honour We Serve'. Though I hold the ideals of honour greatly in my life, I think society now expects service rather than contribution and rights rather than responsibilities.

At any rate, a good article with some worthy points to ponder.

Thankyou,
JustDan

Helen, thoughtful and relevant article - thanks.

I'm not confident that always telling the truth is a good thing, that can provide unnecessary hurt but then slipery slops are not real helpful either.

Two principles I consider core
- The old "Do not bear false witness against your neighbour" line. Any distortion of the truth (direct lie or omission) which is designed to paint an misleading perception of another is out. Some people tell a lot of lies by only telling part of the story.
- Does omitting part of the truth give me an unfair advantage over the other person? There are times I may wish to ommit detail from a response either to protect my privacy or to avoid unnecessary hurt to another (maybe to save my skin). Questions like "What are you thinking?" or "Does my bum look big in this?" are ones which often require a less than full and honest answer.

Life would all be easier if people did not ask some of those questions.

I might choose not to seek out the police to report myself if I notice that I have exceeded the speed limit but will answer honestly if stopped and asked.

That sounds kind of messy. It is not a defence of dishonesty, it is an attempt to have a framework for honesty which allows for privacy and avoids unnecessary hurt without allowing any space for dishonesty for the sake of personal advantage.

R0bert

Do you know why I think adults avoid explaining to children why children shouldn't tell a lie?.

I think its because the adults know that the children nay very well turn around and say "Well you Lie"......children are not stupid and they see the double standards. Adults might find themselves in a sticky situation. Best to avoid the question!.

Adults do that to alot of issues and questions so as to avoid matters and therefore that is what our children learn.

Fascinating article. As a parent myself, I have become convinced that most modern parents no longer aim to develop character or autonomy in their children. Such qualities terrify them, because they associate them with permissiveness and being out of control. They prefer obedience and conformity, an outward appearance of virtue. Many parents seek schools that can deliver what they call "discipline", failing to understand that the only discipline worth having is self-discipline.
Many of my friends with adolescent children have fantasy relationships with them. The children they think they have, the obedient, biddable child they see bears no resemblance to the real child who is getting up to all sorts behind their back. These parents, it seems to me, make a virtue out of living in a fake but comfortable universe. They actively encourage lying and deceit by absolutely freaking out if their kids ever try to tell them the truth. They would actively prefer not to know, and then have the gall to be insufferably smug about it.

A few ideas...

If l believe my lies do they cease to be lies?

If l believe my delusions and denials do they become my reality and therefore truth?

In a world of nosey, voyeuristic, invasive disdain and disrespect for personal privacy and boundaries, is lying the last defence?

Ask no questions... tell no lies?

Sure, they are somewhat esoteric philosophical questions but that is what happens when you start quoting the likes of Kant.

Trade215,

I think there are two elements of truth which your comments highlight; telling the truth, and seeking the truth. If we do not seek the truth then it is easy to deceive ourselves and therefore lie to others with a clear concience. It seems to me that many public figures such as CEOs, politicians and celebrities are able to blatantly lie because they believe some or all of what they are saying. Perhaps lying to oneself (as in the case of enaj's friends) is the worst form of lying.

Postmodernism claims there is no fundamental truth, and reality differs for each one of us, so form takes precedence over substance. Yet deep down many of us we still want to know what the real truth is. Maybe we have become more voyeuristic and invasive of personal privacy precisely because we want to discover the truth behind the facade. Hence the increasing popularity of reality TV and internet expose/conspiracy sites.

I dont know how parents can cultivate the love of truth in their children, but I suspect part of the answer is contained in the saying "if you dont stand for something you'll fall for anything".

Helen,
Interesting article, but I was wondering how you would explain it to a child that is wrong to lie. This seems to be the main point of your article, yet you never actually address WHY it is wrong to lie?

Thank you for the comments on my article! I wanted to try to answer Grey’s question, but this is 350 words. First, I would try to show that you value truth, so don’t tell lies to a child or others. I was aiming to get at the importance of cultivating honesty (not just punishing lying), and to put that in the context of nurturing a certain type of character, rather than seeing it as a problem about following a list of rules. So eg a child needs to develop courage and strength to bear the consequences of telling the truth (think of George Washington & the cherry tree). And children need to develop courtesy and gentleness of character so that they can tell the truth without being boorish (eg in answer to "Does my bum look big in this?", maybe they could think of saying "Well I think it does, and I think you look more beautiful in the other dress" instead of, "Yeah, huge".) I wouldn't test children by asking them questions that you know the answer to and that you are fairly sure that the child will answer dishonestly -- when you do that, a child gets into early practice and habit of lying. Talking to the child about honesty (and other virtues) and what it involves is important. My son used to be worried about whether a joke is a form of lying, and there is a way in which talking about virtue makes a child more careful of what they do. And I would discuss what lying does to him or her. So I would say to the child that it is wrong to lie because it shows contempt to the person lied to, BUT more because it shows disrespect to yourself and who you are. If that sounds too hifalutin for a child, read them a story about someone who shows courage and honesty in difficulty, and then discuss that (the book Catkin is lovely for very young children). The parents in Supernanny almost never read to their children…. Does this scratch the surface?

I came across a SuperNanny booklet recently, which contained 67 tips for “taming your child”. Unfortunately if someone reads the whole booklet, they will probably be none the wiser, because so many of the tips are the opposite to each other.

Eg this method of child discipline:-
“When the child behaves badly, remove her from the room. If she comes back into the room, don’t pay her any attention”

Now this is somewhat contrary to the following method of child discipline:-
“Hold your child by the arms so he can’t run away or interrupt eye contact. Say, “Look at me, please” if he tries to run away.”

Overall, I think Jo Frost more of a TV celebrity, than an authority on child-raising.

It is perhaps a little sad that we (collectively in this forum) cannot enjoy the simple observations in a piece such as this without turning it into some celestial battle between the forces of good and evil.

Listen to yourselves:

"Does omitting part of the truth give me an unfair advantage over the other person?"

"If I believe my delusions and denials do they become my reality and therefore truth?"

"Postmodernism claims there is no fundamental truth, and reality differs for each one of us, so form takes precedence over substance. Yet deep down many of us we still want to know what the real truth is"

Surely, what we are talking about here is not rocket science? Children tell lies when it suits them to do so, most often when there is a prospect of punishment if the truth were to come out. It is one of the basic responsibilities of parents to instil in their kids an awareness that this is wrong, and unacceptable behaviour in both children and adults.

Of course they will try it on. Of course they will begin to notice that politicians lie. And of course, from time to time they might catch their parents in a lie. There should surely be as little excuse for lying to your children as there is for them lying to you - so face up to it, and take the punishment. Nothing destroys trust more quickly than hypocrisy, and in order to instil values you need to nurture trust.

Let's face it, as far as a child is concerned, you start off with their complete trust, and an aura of absolute infallibility. That's what gives you the means of persuasion on moral and ethical issues.

Pericles, I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. It seems as if you don't think the discussion is relevant. Am I misreading your post?

Part of the discussion is about the concept of truth vs lying/dishonesty. This seems fairly relevant to the article.

How do we go about instilling a love of truth in kids that will be useful to them when our absolute word is no longer good enough?

How do we teach kids balance so that they don't feel compelled to blurt everything just because someone asks? I still struggle with this a bit.

How do I help my son deal with the reality of his life in that he has two parents no longer together who need some privacy from each other? I can do my best to ensure he does not know things I don't want his mother not to know and I can avoid asking questions he should not have to answer. Sometimes that still leaves him in places he should not have to be.

Helen's article has promoted some interesting discussion. So far it has been a fairly friendly discussion. It has not polarised into us and them groups but rather a pleasant change of thinking. If only more of the threads worked like that.

R0bert

Thanks for another interesting article Helen. I think "supernanny" is using her own version of behaviour mofication. From my experience behaviour mod does not teach understanding about the consequences of behaviour. Surely we want our children to understand the reasons behind our challenges? Surely we don't want to rear little robots?
Cheers Kay

Ho hum - I meant modification!

R0bert, the thread has died down a bit since I last looked, but I thought I had better clarify a little.

I absolutely agree with you, and with Helen, that parents have a difficult time balancing the social issues around both lying and telling the truth. What concerned me was an apparent onset of over-intellectualising what can only be a relative, not an absolute.

We know we should avoid lying, but occasionally we have to. We know we should always tell the truth, but sometimes we must hold back. Trying to codify every when, where and how of this is not only a fruitless exercise in itself, but it also misses the point.

As human beings, we have to make judgement calls every minute of the day. If you as a parent judge that it is inappropriate to tell your child the whole truth (I'm upset because your mother is bending the rules on custody) or that it is prudent to lie outright (of course I don't mind if you visit your mother today), that is what you should do. If on the other hand you have the sort of relationship with your child where you can tell the unvarnished truth on every occasion, go to it.

Trying to implement absolute measures of truth and fiction can be destructive or instructive, but it will vary from one human being to the next. You can tell some people everything and they will take it at face value; at the other end of the scale are people who are so vulnerable that they read disaster into every little utterance. I cannot for the life of me see a single set of rules that works for both categories. Ones energies are better spent on assessing the individual, than applying rigid rules of "right" and "wrong".

To me, understanding the question is infinitely more important than having an answer.

I agree with you Pericles. The question is more important. By the way people. Here is the classical refutation to Kant. Kant argues we should ALLWAYS tell the truth. Imagine this. We live in a police state where the secret police gab some people to terrify the rest. Our friend comes to us one night saying "hide me the secret police are after me." According to Kant we should hide him. But if the police come 5 minutes later asking "do you know where your friend is?" according to Kant we should say "sure. I'm hiding him in the cellar." Does anyone agree with Kant on this? Wouldn't we all lie to this secret police to save our friend? Well sometimes, as Pericles pointed out, lies are necessary. Plato called them the noble lies. I agree with Plato on this one.

I agree with what you are saying Helen. I enjoy watching the Supernanny and wish I had of implemented some of her tactics into my routine when my children were younger. To teach my daughter why lying was bad I showed her what it would be like if she were not able to trust me. I acted out a scenario (I made up a story - told lies, I can't remember the details of this) where suddenly, if what I was telling her was the truth, this new information would have turned the world she knew upside down. Now I suppose you are thinking that is going a bit far, to traumatise my own child for her to learn to tell the truth. As far as I know she never lied to me again.

My children are not perfect angels by any means but what is most important to me is that we have an open and honest relationship. My daughter is now 18 and my son 16 and I believe the success of my method to nurture 'trust' through 'telling the truth' can be measured now in how good my relationship is with them and the lack of trauma I have gone through in their teenage years. I have seen many other parents and young people go through a lot of trauma because they have not experienced or understood the basic value of telling the truth and maintaining trust.

Trust is everything in a relationship. I knew I never wanted to loose the trust of my children and made sure I didn't do anything to jeopardise this. Sure I am only human and at times I know I did or said things over the years to diminish this trust at times and then I would work at gaining it back, thus I showed I was personally responsible and accountable for my actions and for what I communicated, and in so doing, role modeled how I wanted my children to respond when they also may have done things which lessen my trust in them.