Having read Peter Saunders original article and the reply by the St Vincent de Paul Society I am please that it did not end there. It would have been sad if that was the final word. I am thankful that we got this reply from Peter Saunders.

In my view Peter Saunders has the better grasp on reality. As a country we need to stop this obsession with blame shifting and envy. Charities do their best work when they empower people to action. Not when they mollify them in their plight. I am sure that at the front line on a day to day basis this is what St Vincent de Paul Society actually does. If they don't empower individuals then whats the point

While I have read all these arguements posted by all parties, the sad reality is that people on lower incomes are finding it increasingly difficult to manage financially. There is not the public housing available to meet the current demands, the price of petrol has increased the cost of living and now the Federal government wants to change the Industrial Relations legislation, with this further impacting on the ability of workers to maintain a realistic wage level.

I think that there are people who call themselves poor who really are not that poor. The meaning of poor needs to be explained and addressed. Those that can afford the luxuries of smoking, drinking, gambling, owning a mobile phone or wearing designer wear are not poor, they are just not as rich as they would like to be. These people make it difficult to identify, help and have sympathy and compassion for the real poor.

I believe that a person who isn't prepared to go out and work or to sacrifice in order to change or raise their own living standards cannot possibly expect to live the same lifestyle and have the same luxuries as those that have sacrificed and that work as much as is required to provide for thier families at their level of expecation.

Otherwise if there is to be no difference, then we may as well all stay in bed.

Saunders bases his claims that St. Vinnies are not only Marxist inspired but revolutionary buffs on stuff like the following: 'Marx emphasized that he was writing, not about individual capitalists and workers, but about the “structural relation” between them. Workers and capitalists are not the agents of their own fate but are the “bearers” of objective structural realities. Individuals can do little to improve their fates - what is needed is structural transformation (i.e. revolution).

Vinnies agree that individuals lack agency. Falzon’s paper attacks the "specious form of blaming the structurally exploited and excluded for their poverty, inferring that they, rather than the movements and machinations of capital, can make both the ultimate and intimate difference to their own living conditions. This position would be laughable were it not so insulting."

In plain English - there is nothing the poor can do to improve their situation unless the capitalist system itself is overturned.'

Come on Peter. Since when is putting words, "in plain English", into other folks'mouths fair play. I haven't seen any evidence of St. Vinnies wanting to overturn capitalism. Maybe they just want people to give people on the poverty line a little more assistance and consideration. Maybe it is just political pressure. Maybe they are after more funding (to indirectly boost Romes power base). But Marxist - fair go for a drongo. Maybe Marx's ideas are simply so valid that they encompass even modern society. You just have to mention the plight of the poor in this country and those who seem to want to stifle sensible debate pull out the old "Marxist, commo etc tags". Maybe they are just nice people trying to do good.

And yes Terje empowering people is a very important, but first you have to get them on their feet - not kick them in the teeth.

Actually Peter Saunders article does more to promote Marxist thought as an alternative to rampant capitalism than St. Vinnies. Read your lecture on Marxism from the perspective of a battler (with an open mind) and Marx seems valid. Ahy Comrade Pete.

Hmmm…

“I believe that a person who isn't prepared to go out and work or to sacrifice in order to change or raise their own living standards cannot possibly expect to live the same lifestyle and have the same luxuries as those that have sacrificed and that work as much as is required to provide for thier families at their level of expecation.”

So, to be poor means to not try to improve one’s lot? This is the most used phrase by those of a privileged nature. “I did it, so why don’t you?’. From my experience (and I consider myself coming from a poor background and to now be privileged) the more privileged you are, the more inequitable the world. Our schooling, work networking and political system are all designed to pass a baton from old boy/girl to future old boy/girl. There is little chance for the hard working, intelligent commoner unless some special dispensation is handed out from the world of privilege.

Feel free to disagree. It’s easy when you are on the other side. I will agree that there are many examples of those who have broken through the, hey lets call it “caviar barrier” but when held against the numbers of those that strive and are beaten down through ‘fair’ competition and ‘merit’ based selection processes, it is glaringly obvious that our class society is well and truly developing.

I know many will disagree but having been born into one (single mother and 4 kids on a nurses wages is not easy) and worked/grown into the other (I own all my property and have never received any social security) I think I come from a position of some strength. We all need to work and contribute. Yes. But until the ‘fairness’ and merit’ is weeded of handshakes and winks, there will be no ‘equality’ in this society or this world. Human nature really.

I respect each opinion here and hope that if honesty and integrity can reign, no inequity can survive.

Sleep well at night and try to sleep straight… it’s not easy for many…
JustDan

JustDan. You said “Our schooling, work networking and political system are all designed to pass a baton from old boy/girl to future old boy/girl. There is little chance for the hard working, intelligent commoner unless some special dispensation is handed out from the world of privilege.

I don’t necessarily agree, I think that the problem is that some people are waiting for some special dispensation to be handed out instead of going out to get it. In Australia if you want to succeed financially you can – its all about attitude – it not going to be easy and it takes hard work and thick skin but I do believe that it is achievable. Maybe not always at “caviar level”, but certainly at a level where you can live a comfortable lifestyle.

The problem is that people from disadvantaged backgrounds need to find ways to be successful despite the system, they need to support each other. There are so many ways of getting to where you want to go and achieving what you want to achieve. Too many people give up at the first hurdle and use their situation as an excuse and that is then what our children are exposed to and learn – it’s a vicious cycle. My family have been victims of bias and discrimination and of being denied access to the old/boy girl baton our story can be read on Your democracy
http://yourdemocracy.net.au/drupal/?q=node/858

Whilst my children and family have suffered and could easily give up, we will fight for our human right to be treated fairly, they will not succeed in keeping us down.

I don’t think people realise that people from all classes have issues and problems and they suffer. Problems are pressures are not just limited to the poor.