Having read Peter Saunders original article and the reply by the St Vincent de Paul Society I am please that it did not end there. It would have been sad if that was the final word. I am thankful that we got this reply from Peter Saunders.

In my view Peter Saunders has the better grasp on reality. As a country we need to stop this obsession with blame shifting and envy. Charities do their best work when they empower people to action. Not when they mollify them in their plight. I am sure that at the front line on a day to day basis this is what St Vincent de Paul Society actually does. If they don't empower individuals then whats the point

While I have read all these arguements posted by all parties, the sad reality is that people on lower incomes are finding it increasingly difficult to manage financially. There is not the public housing available to meet the current demands, the price of petrol has increased the cost of living and now the Federal government wants to change the Industrial Relations legislation, with this further impacting on the ability of workers to maintain a realistic wage level.

I think that there are people who call themselves poor who really are not that poor. The meaning of poor needs to be explained and addressed. Those that can afford the luxuries of smoking, drinking, gambling, owning a mobile phone or wearing designer wear are not poor, they are just not as rich as they would like to be. These people make it difficult to identify, help and have sympathy and compassion for the real poor.

I believe that a person who isn't prepared to go out and work or to sacrifice in order to change or raise their own living standards cannot possibly expect to live the same lifestyle and have the same luxuries as those that have sacrificed and that work as much as is required to provide for thier families at their level of expecation.

Otherwise if there is to be no difference, then we may as well all stay in bed.

Saunders bases his claims that St. Vinnies are not only Marxist inspired but revolutionary buffs on stuff like the following: 'Marx emphasized that he was writing, not about individual capitalists and workers, but about the “structural relation” between them. Workers and capitalists are not the agents of their own fate but are the “bearers” of objective structural realities. Individuals can do little to improve their fates - what is needed is structural transformation (i.e. revolution).

Vinnies agree that individuals lack agency. Falzon’s paper attacks the "specious form of blaming the structurally exploited and excluded for their poverty, inferring that they, rather than the movements and machinations of capital, can make both the ultimate and intimate difference to their own living conditions. This position would be laughable were it not so insulting."

In plain English - there is nothing the poor can do to improve their situation unless the capitalist system itself is overturned.'

Come on Peter. Since when is putting words, "in plain English", into other folks'mouths fair play. I haven't seen any evidence of St. Vinnies wanting to overturn capitalism. Maybe they just want people to give people on the poverty line a little more assistance and consideration. Maybe it is just political pressure. Maybe they are after more funding (to indirectly boost Romes power base). But Marxist - fair go for a drongo. Maybe Marx's ideas are simply so valid that they encompass even modern society. You just have to mention the plight of the poor in this country and those who seem to want to stifle sensible debate pull out the old "Marxist, commo etc tags". Maybe they are just nice people trying to do good.

And yes Terje empowering people is a very important, but first you have to get them on their feet - not kick them in the teeth.

Actually Peter Saunders article does more to promote Marxist thought as an alternative to rampant capitalism than St. Vinnies. Read your lecture on Marxism from the perspective of a battler (with an open mind) and Marx seems valid. Ahy Comrade Pete.

Hmmm…

“I believe that a person who isn't prepared to go out and work or to sacrifice in order to change or raise their own living standards cannot possibly expect to live the same lifestyle and have the same luxuries as those that have sacrificed and that work as much as is required to provide for thier families at their level of expecation.”

So, to be poor means to not try to improve one’s lot? This is the most used phrase by those of a privileged nature. “I did it, so why don’t you?’. From my experience (and I consider myself coming from a poor background and to now be privileged) the more privileged you are, the more inequitable the world. Our schooling, work networking and political system are all designed to pass a baton from old boy/girl to future old boy/girl. There is little chance for the hard working, intelligent commoner unless some special dispensation is handed out from the world of privilege.

Feel free to disagree. It’s easy when you are on the other side. I will agree that there are many examples of those who have broken through the, hey lets call it “caviar barrier” but when held against the numbers of those that strive and are beaten down through ‘fair’ competition and ‘merit’ based selection processes, it is glaringly obvious that our class society is well and truly developing.

I know many will disagree but having been born into one (single mother and 4 kids on a nurses wages is not easy) and worked/grown into the other (I own all my property and have never received any social security) I think I come from a position of some strength. We all need to work and contribute. Yes. But until the ‘fairness’ and merit’ is weeded of handshakes and winks, there will be no ‘equality’ in this society or this world. Human nature really.

I respect each opinion here and hope that if honesty and integrity can reign, no inequity can survive.

Sleep well at night and try to sleep straight… it’s not easy for many…
JustDan

JustDan. You said “Our schooling, work networking and political system are all designed to pass a baton from old boy/girl to future old boy/girl. There is little chance for the hard working, intelligent commoner unless some special dispensation is handed out from the world of privilege.

I don’t necessarily agree, I think that the problem is that some people are waiting for some special dispensation to be handed out instead of going out to get it. In Australia if you want to succeed financially you can – its all about attitude – it not going to be easy and it takes hard work and thick skin but I do believe that it is achievable. Maybe not always at “caviar level”, but certainly at a level where you can live a comfortable lifestyle.

The problem is that people from disadvantaged backgrounds need to find ways to be successful despite the system, they need to support each other. There are so many ways of getting to where you want to go and achieving what you want to achieve. Too many people give up at the first hurdle and use their situation as an excuse and that is then what our children are exposed to and learn – it’s a vicious cycle. My family have been victims of bias and discrimination and of being denied access to the old/boy girl baton our story can be read on Your democracy
http://yourdemocracy.net.au/drupal/?q=node/858

Whilst my children and family have suffered and could easily give up, we will fight for our human right to be treated fairly, they will not succeed in keeping us down.

I don’t think people realise that people from all classes have issues and problems and they suffer. Problems are pressures are not just limited to the poor.

Jolanda, I have just read your "ourdemocracy" blog. I share, in some ways, some of your experiences and concerns re: the stonewalling that you have received. It is so frustrating to go through all the channels that politicians, governments and well-meaning people advise - only to come up against stonewalling and tactics of avoidance. Our family all suffered adverse physical and mental trauma because of the bullying by the local private-school community - that treatment was then compounded, even multiplied, by having our complaints ignored or dealt with as if our evidence, situation and arguments don't warrant attention because of that culture of "we have the power therefore we know all you know nothing" - "we have infinite resources at our disposal - you have a mortgage - you'll just have to put up with things". It seems to me from your experience and my less traumatic but similar ones that their is something endemic in large institutions - they seem to be trying to protect their status as infalliable organisations. The annoying thing about this treatment is it sort of denies your reality and can make you feel like you are worthless - especially when you are treated like dog doo on a wedding shoe.
While I don't agree with a lot of your views, I do want you and your children to be treated fairly and with respect - and I believe that you have the right to have access to an education system that treats you and your children, and all children and their parents so. And I think that your complaints need to be addressed.
Mine never were - Catholic hierarchy in my area simply refused to speak with us on relevant issues. Certain Catholics would rather spend their energy defaming, misleading and i think trying to force us out of our home. Police action has hopefully ended their physical abuse. Nevertheless, my experiences have been a blessing, the insight I have gained is priceless. I don't think I would have believed people like you or given a toss five years ago. Best wishes.

Rancid. I am so sorry that you family has had to suffer being treated so unfairly and unjustly. You deserve better. It isn’t right or fair.

I too believe that what has happened to us has opened our eyes and given us insight. I feel sad for the children. Being treated so poorly and as though they are insignificant does make them feel worthless and as though they are not valued. It messes with their mind at the most vulnerable times of their development.

It certainly does help to have an avenue to tell our side of the story and I really do appreciate your kind words and your belief that we are justified in seeking a proper and fair investigation.

The Department is not going to hear the end of this one until they do the right thing. The amount of times the Department has sat back and permitted my children to be treated so unfairly and unjustly is in my opinion more unforgivable than the acts themselves. My children are prepared to protest as many times as it takes and I have informed the Department that if I have to I will go on a hunger strike outside the Department with all the documents until such time as my family is afforded our human right to be heard and our human right to be treated fairly. They will try to turn it on me and make me appear a unreasonable parent and a rebel.

The system relies on nobody caring. I am hopeful that the internet will make it harder for the system to discredit and to defame and that the Public will not allow them to ignore us as our complaints are justified and warrant a proper and fair investigation. It should be our human right to be treated fairly

Jolanda…
Yes, sometimes people are looking for handouts (that’s the way we’ve educated them in this country – welfare state after all!) but there are many times when they just aren’t able to defeat entrenched corruption and nepotism. It truly does exist. I’ve seen/experienced it first hand. I agree that in Australia, as in the world at large (generally anyway), if one wants to succeed, then one can. However, the future of the ‘democracy’ is looking bleak and this expectation is fading.

You stated “The problem is that people from disadvantaged backgrounds need to find ways to be successful despite the system, they need to support each other.” Well, that’s the point isn’t it? How does one ‘be successful, despite the system’ when that is the systems job? No matter the effort, if your adversary has a distinct advantage, then it takes a level lower than theirs to defeat them. And I would hope that you would agree that ethics and morals are just as important as success? How does one defeat an unethical foe and maintain their own?

But fear not Jolanda. I agree that hard work, a thick skin and smarts can win - in time. I do however see the need to build conscience and ethics into our children, so the ‘system’ can be changed to produce a more ethical, honest and fair society. If you consider our society fair right now, then I will have to disagree on that point. Moreover, having read your Democracy site, I think (hope?) you just might agree?

Finally, yes problems and pressures are not limited to the poor. In addition, those problems are not all about money, assets, comfort. However, it is easier to deal with a problem when warm and fed.

Peace, honesty and compassion…
JustDan

JustDan. I totally agree that morals are more important than success. I also agree that those in power like to keep those below them in their place and that the majority of those in positions of power are corrupt or corruptable and they really dont care.

I don’t consider society fair, not one little bit!. The only way that the system can be changed is to expose the corruption and push for change.

You are right that having a warm home and food on the table certainly makes it easier to keep strong and not to succumb to mental illness or to turn to the dark side (as my young son calls it).

Jolanda one last blog re: the troubles you are having with the various authorities. (I became a little worried that I had thrown petrol on a fire). Please forgive if this sounds patronising. Please for you and your family's sake be careful not to give too much of yourself over to this problem. Children are fairly resilient, especially, if their mum and dad are there for them. Make sure you teach your children coping strategies. Bullying is a terrible abuse and does harm people.
I am not saying turn away from your endeavours - just be kind to yourself and keep a balance.
As Shakespeare put it:
"Heat not a furnace for your foe so hot,
That it do singe yourself

I have seen many people burn themselves out. Life is a very precious gift not to be wasted. You can martyr yourself in the name of justice or you can make sure you have your priorities in place and do your little bit. I like the idea of karma which says that every good deed no matter how insignificant raises the overall goodness in the world. (Doesn't mean i agree with you on certain things).
And if the outcome you achieve is not the best result - remember that it is not you who has failed - you can only control so much of the process - outcomes are often beyond our control, especially in a system that is not adhering to the principles of democracy and fairness.
One more thing: one of the problems of our society is that we seldom think of what we have but always what we lack (see Schopenhauer). As the old saying goes: " I got a ticket in Tatts, window shopping and back lane full of chance - what more could a boy want?" We have two education systems, parliamentary democracy and the possibilty to make things better for all of us. Take care. The one I love needs feeding.

If I wanted to minimise poverty and I was forced to choose between:-

a) St Vincent de Paul Society
b) Capitalism

then the latter would win without any doubt.

Of course they are not yet mutually exclusive

Gender Agenda

Jolanda,
I think you misunderstood my intent. I simply state that it is not an issue whether someone chooses to be homosexual on an emotional level as opposed to a genetic trait. Strange as it may seem, some homosexuals are happy, have had great parents, friends and generally happy with all that life has provided. On this basis, how is it that ‘these people suffer’?

On the other points regarding bullying and malice, I completely agree. But there is legislation in relation to bullying. It’s just a weakly enforced one, due to the unfavourable results that might occur when it’s certain powers that may be on the end of it!

Here’s to a hopefully better world…
JustDan

JustDan. I dont believe I misinterpreted your intention or post. I am not talking about people, whether gay or not, that are happy. I am talking about those that are suffering and are not happy. In real life you get both.

Rancid. I didn’t think you were adding fuel to the fire, I just thought you were being sympathetic and understanding. What I have explained to you is no different to what I have told the Department many times, nothing has changed!. Please don’t be concerned that you might have encouraged us.

You get past the stage of being burned!. We now approach the matter in a very matter of fact way and we no longer get emotional or get caught by surprise, we expect to be treated unfairly and we present the facts as that, the facts. It has taken a few years to get to this stage. Emotionally and psychologically it has been very difficult, but we have learned a lot and it has made us all stronger.

I am not wanting to maytyr myself in the name of Justice, we just want to be treated fairly. I am merely being forced to take drastic measures to protect my children from being systemically, bullied, neglected, victimized, vilified and treated unfairly.

As a parent you do what they force you to do to protect your children!. Bullying is a terrible abuse and it is traumatic for children. Systemic bullying and neglect is the worse kind as it comes from the adults that should be protecting the children.

This is one of those issues where you have to be living it to really understand, it is really a difficult situation because at the end of the day you are talking about “children” and not many people understand the problems that being so far from the bell curve causes children and not many feel sorry enough for gifted children to do something to help no matter how much they are being bullied, neglected and are suffering. It has to do with the “Tall Poppy Syndrome.

I guess the poor suffer from a similar problem.

St Vincent de Paul holding Marxist views is a bit rich.
The Federal Government through its Iindustrial Relations proposals is trying to break down Unions and in doing so is trying to break down the Labor Party. Unions provide valuable fiscal resources for the Labor Party. Unions were instrumental in working people gaining some power and benefits from those who sought to virtually enslave their workers in the past. There is no evidence to suggest that the worker won't be abused again in the future, having to make individual contracts with bosses trying to pay bare minimum wages.

The Coalition Government has made life difficult for a number of disadvantaged sectors already; those on Disablity Pensions have been pushed hard. Life is about to become more difficult for single mothers. People who sought to have refugees treated in a humanitarian manner were castigated, now they have been vindicated.

How can we trust what the Coalition Government or its supporters say when we have ben misled in a number of ways in relation to refugees, the Iraq war, medicare, and interest rates; during the last election. The Prime minister has been given the apt title of " Honest John".

1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
4.) Supremacy of the Military
5.) Rampant Sexism
6.) Controlled Mass Media
7.) Obsession with National Security Corporate Power is Protected
8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined
9.) Corporate Power is Protected
10.) Labor Power is Suppressed
11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
14.) Fraudulent Elections

These 14 points are meant to define what comprises a fascist State. It is a site fom USA; however, it can be argued that Australia partially meets some of the criteria. Prior to Siev X it would not be possible to postulate such a view. The web site this information was found is http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

one just has to look at the background and world view of the writer of each view. Of course they are never going to agree. One worships god and strives for equality (as a general philosophy), whereas the Centre for Independant Studies is a far right Capitalist based think tank where the dollar bill is supreme.
Under this government of course the poor are getting poorer, they are supposed to - it is litle John's mandate. Just ask him.

I believe any discussion about poverty needs to take place in the context of understanding that poverty is relative.

What may constitute poverty in one country may be vastly different from the experience of poverty in another. In wealthy 'developed' economies, if you need welfare assistance it is usually because you do not have an income and/or living standard sufficient to enjoy what most people consider to be a moderately comfortable life -that is - to live without fear of debt and to plan for future enjoyment.

Modest consumption after basic needs of food and shelter requires a regular income of more than the current welfare payment in order to maintain.

Poverty is relative. It is also isolating. What is the sense of isolating people from the mainstream by further reducing their opportunities to attain and enjoy a middle-class standard of living? The system already traps too many into relative poverty.

Further breaking down of wages and working conditions is likely to destroy the work ethic even more than unemployment and ageism has already done. Many women in their sixties now are likely to experience poverty in their old age because they did not have the opportunities to earn income or contribute to superannuation until after they had reared their families.

Poverty is relative, isolating and it can make or keep you sick. Some public-hospital-based programs of preventative care have been scrapped. Awareness and funding is being devolved to charities and service clubs like Rotary.

Poverty is relative. I think anyone who wants to understand this this needs to live for 3 years on the basic welfare payment, stripped of regular supplementary income and assets and support systems (eg family). Live a year in this country - then in Thailand or Cambodia or an African nation state and then do a year in the USA.

After all is said and done, more will be said than done, I reckon.

Would you have said:-

~Any discussion about starvation needs to take place in the context of understanding that starvation is relative. ~

Perhaps not. We need less relative concepts and some more realistic measures of any material deficit that people endure.

We don't ask that people regard the "value of human life" as being a relative thing based on nationality. So why do we attempt to create obscure relative notions of hardship.

The every rising "poverty line" as defined in Australia does a great dis-service to any meaningful attempt to address issues of real poverty. We give handouts to people on substantial above average incomes just because they have children. We define old as being a disability. Its time that we got real

Terje, Starvation is not relative. Starvation is an absolute. It means 'no food'.

Mollydukes,

That is was my very point. We should be using absolute terms like starvation rates, infant mortality, disease incidents, literacy rates etc to compare countries.

Relativistic terms, as the word poverty has become, are useless benchmarks with which to measure and manage social progress.

Regards,
Terje.