NeoHuman
I'm at a loss to know why you asked me about being at odds with Aslan and creation science etc ? Can you expand a bit ?

I just refer everyone to the beauty and richness and depth and enduring value of the words of Christ and Paul and the other Apostles.
Without which our community would have no anchor, morally or spiritually. Thats my 'opinion' :) so Garra, dont give me 'your forcing it down my throat' please.

Garra, the values you espoused above are indeed nice sounding. But they really only seem to have ideological impact in peaceful western societies where we are more worried about the price of petrol than whether the Gestapo or Religious police are about to knock our door down. You still appear not to recognize the foundation on which such values rest. Socrates and Plato had some 'quaint' ideas, but strangely, the Persians had different ones. So, such ideas are always subject to the prevailing power interests. There are some states where just to express thoughts which are BASED on deeper ideas that are viewed as dangerous to the state status quo is enough to be placed in Jail with out trial for indefinite periods, SINGAPORE is one such state.

But there is one set of values, ideas, morals, which is enduring no matter which power prevails, it is the power that saw 2 million people attend Billy Graham crusades in China, a million in Seoul, Korea it is that power which after a few years saw 'those of Caesars household' naming Christ as Lord, it is the power of He who washed His disciples feet, who said "I came not to be served, but to serve"
Perhaps one day, more of us who visit this forum will also name Him as Lord

Sells while I did a paper on the Ontological argument I’m not familiar with the ontotheological concept of God could you give a quick run down?

B David you seemed happy to chip in along with Aslan with his sophistry, I just assumed that you had similar fundamentalist views. So you aren’t a creation science advocate?

But you go to say:

>Socrates and Plato had some 'quaint' ideas.

Hmmm two of the greatest philosophers of all time and you think they had some quaint ideas!

Well that pretty well indicates to all here, that your knowledge of philosophy and the history of western philosophy, amount to NOTHING.

Peter do you see what I have to put with?

Garra we are wasting our time, B David has this delusion that modern Western societies or a just human society must rely on Christian teachings. They had a positive influence on some, but we have also moved away from the nastier side of Christianity as well. (Ask B David and Aslan their reasons why the Bible implicitly condones Slavery.)

David ignores the fact that other societies also developed law and civilization without any contact with Christianity, the Chinese did quite well with Confucian and Buddhist teachings.

Our democracy –pagan Greeks - or the rule of law,-heavily influenced by pagan Roman law-(BTW yes I know English system is different to European) separation of powers, these are not the sole work of Christianity.

To B David the Renaissance, the Enlightenment and Humanism obviously just didn’t happen!

Peter seems to think that Jesus was a real figure. As far as I'm concerned The Jesus as portrayed in the New Testament is a myth. Pure and simple. Any one in this day and age who believes that a ghost impregnated a young virgin girl (sexual abuse by today's standard) and she in turn gave birth to the Christian God 2000 years ago is a very deluded person indeed.

Neohuman, human history did not jump from the Ancient Greeks to the Renaissance/Enlightenment/Humanism...In writing such, is it a deliberate action in expunging the Christian era?

Western culture is Christian founded.

Secular humanism rose out of the freedoms of individual conscience and action established in European culture from the middle ages. The concept of the person, the dignity of the person, conscience and individual freedom and responsibility flowed from Christian thought and practice. Our systems of production and commerce found their earliest formations in monastic life.

Such thought of exclusion sees you leap over the High Middle Ages where Christian intellectual thought rose from the earlier Dark Ages.

It was during the preceding centuries that Islamic scholastic practice flourished with their translations of the Ancient Greeks; Socrates, Aristotle, Plato etc. and which they passed onto the medieval Christian theologians through dialogue and debate.

An understanding of Aristotle by Averroes (Latin name for Ibn Rushd 1126-1198) proposed that there is a single human intellect and it is shared by each person. St Thomas Aquinas (1225..1274) saw the limitation of such thought in that it excluded personal identity here and into the next life. Aquinas's attaching the existence of individual intellect along with the personal soul was foundational in the development of personal responsibility, and indeed the understanding of each of us being made in the Image of God.

Lord Acton, and more recently, Nobel laureate Friedrich Hayek (1899-1992) called Thomas Aquinas, "the First Whig," that is, the founder of the party of liberty in human history.

I will leave it to you make reasoned comparisons and evaluations of cultural development across the world.

It is sad that we lack knowledge of Church History. It is our story. It satisfies my intellectual needs, gives understanding to its Institutional realities, both its vast goodness and its occasions of terrible wrongheadedness, and enhances the ongoing challenges of living in relationship with the Risen Lord which it proclaims.

A good introduction reference to Aquinas is On Aquinas by John Inglis in the wadsworth Philosophers Series.

As well an essay worth reading is at http://www.acton.org/publicat/m_and_m/1998_oct/novak.htm

That link is
http://www.acton.org/publicat/m_and_m/1998_oct/novak.html

Jim,
There's more historical evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ than for Julius Caesar and I imagine you do not consider him a myth?

Your misinformation is derived from the Catholic Church and not from documented research. I suggest also read the Book of Mary and the Gospel of James - found on the net. God is not human, but he is manifest through human lives. God is Spirit, not a spatial ghost (too much TV). God is manifest in character, words of wisdom, acts of compassion and judgment. Christ states he didn't come to judge but to save people. That's the purpose of the cross.

Mary his mother educated from the age of three years in the Temple and upon her pubity the law forbid her entry into the Temple during her monthy cycle. So Zacherias as Priest to fulfil the precedent set by Isaiah 9 had Mary impregnated artificially by semen from young men from the lineage of David. The Essenes used this method to have children so as not to become unclean. Zacherias took care of Mary along with his own pregnant wife Elizabeth in the first months. Zecharias had actually selected Joseph to care for Mary because he had sons but was away working as a stone mason for the Romans. But Herod hearing of his intention to raise a child as king of Israel had him slain in the Temple court. Elizabeth hearing of her husbands death, fled with John his son into the caves of the Essene community while Mary with Jesus and Joseph and his children fled to Egypt.

As Peter states, "the Trinitarian God who is three in one, Father, Son and Holy Spirit"; is not three persons in one, He is one Spirit manifest through human character. The Matthew 28: 19 formula identifies a singular name, not three persons, similarly Isaiah 9, identifies a singular name of one person who is both the son and the Almighty Father. God is neither male or female, God is the eternal Spirit in whose moral character image we as humans were created.