Hi Reality Check,

Your writings are still about ‘us or them’.
Let me clarify basic historical facts:

- The ‘Christian west’ as you refer to it became modernised, secular (ie Peaceful) ONLY after the separation of the Church and state (I am sure we all read medieval Europe). The basis of modern world we live in started with the French revolution when the values of modernisation were taken from science and sociology rather than theology. The ‘modern west’ have mutilated Christianity if you compare Christianity practices west versus east Europe or even North African countries.

- Islam and Jesus: will give you the benefit of the doubt on this one: the theological challenges facing Catholicism since its inception is not related to Islam at all. Jesus ‘divinity established 325 AD was opposed by top priests like Arios and Militos. In fact, Emperor Constantine (first sponsor of Christianity) was baptised by Uthipios (follower of Arios). Not until another 56 years later that the trinity became to enforcement by the church in the year 381 AD. It was debated then vigorously and violently and priest who opposed it ended with some ugly choices.

- Even within the church, Pope Honorius (648 AD, when muslims where only few hundreds) questioned the commitment to Trinity versus Monotheism only to be removed and discredited after his death. The doctrine of Trinity has been always confusing to Christians within the same faith whether Islam was here or not (I am sure we both read history on this one).

- Saudi approach: it’s a political theology and you can compare it to the Vatican. I am sure none of them will allow the other one to build mosques or churches (Although I would love to see them establish a dialogue first)

- ‘victory to Islamic prophet’ : I am not sure what’s with the football attitude and the islamophobia. Jesus is also is an Islamic prophet and muslims are waiting for him to come back not Mohamed. We love them equally and that’s really all there is to it.

Cheers…Ash

Ash, O
On matters of theism I generally agree with you. I am an orthodox monotheist who follows the teachings of Jesus. I do not accept the Roman position of God as three persons in a trinity. Jesus life and words were far more inspirational than the confusing message of the Koran. Jesus was more than a prophet, his character, and actions revealed more of God than merely his words. His spirit expressed the very heart and mind of God (Koran 3: 46), and that in the true sense meant his spirit was as a son to the Father. Hence we respect him, because his spirit revealed God to us.

Ash Koheil,
Ash, hatred does not equate to defending an opposing opinion!

Defending a different opinion does not mean: quote, “why do some of you hate us so much?” Hatred is: a personal attack or violent rejection of a person. Hatred is not holding a different opinion or rejecting ideas held by the “us” in your comment.

We respect you as a person but may reject your beliefs.

Quote: ”Koran is the only source that Muslims believe is inspired by God”.

It may be true that Muslims believe such to be true, but are we allowed to challenge the Koran? From my search of the Muslim belief system it’s about control of the mind by Imams. In our Western society such control follows the definitions of a “religious cult”; where a person abandons all critical thinking and submits to the total control of the leaders, gurus, Imams, the Koran and the precedent established by the Hadiths.

Quote, “There is no contradiction in the Koran for those who understand it.”

The stories of Mary and Jesus found-in the Koran is a full regurgitation of the Catholic Church beliefs++ in 600AD, therefore equally questionable as it represents a mythological understanding of the Mary and Jesus. Such a belief is not consistent with the original records of James the son of Joseph who was present at the birth of Jesus, and later became elder in the Jerusalem Church.

Quote Ash, “But as I said … Jesus’ crucifix is not a religious issue for Muslims.”

This is true as Muslims actually deny such an event ever occurred. Christians are not afraid to debate such an idea as the records of history validate that it did occur. Mahomet denied it at the encouragement of his Jewish monotheistic friends at the time, because the Catholic Church was in unforgiving conflict with the Jews for his crucifixion.

Quote, “you are comfortable with the sources of your beliefs being established by mortal men in the year 325 to 386 AD.”

Not true Ash I research the records of ideas from every generation to form my beliefs

Reality Check,
I forgot to apologise for my use of the word revile. I reviewed the thread and you are right - I reacted with a little too much emotion. Again my apologies. Perhaps a better word would have been 'dismisive'? It is just that I find it very arrogant to see that some Christians (as well as some Muslims) find that their religion is the 'right' one. It is impossible to substantiate. Yes, you can claim kowning truth through opening your heart, studying and understanding or presenting 'facts' disproving the other. The bottom line is that no one can susbtantiate anything. Religion and faith are good things - when applied correctly. My personal opinion (and it is only mine) is that it is not how you worship but why. For strength, comfort and guidance is fine. For self-esteem, abrogating fear or out of blind following is, well, thoughtless. Anyway, enough of my babbling.

Well, take care all and I hope our truths can find a peaceful existence.
JustDan

JustDan, Philo, Ash et al,

the discussion we are having is maturing nicely as we tackle issues that call all of us to reach to the furthest points and depths of our feelings, intellect and nature.

Any believer worth their salt must adopt a certain level of 'arrogance' (certainty?) - otherwise they wouldn't be a believer or adherant of their faith. However, because we are dealing with the uncertainties of history, the development of understanding of various believing communities/traditions and trying to fathom what is essentially a mystery, we by the very nature of the subject are acting on faith.

Now, the difficulty that we all have is JustDan's proposition / ideal that our 'truths' can co-exist. Truth, by its very nature, is singular, eternal and immutable, hence the search for it takes on such proportions. However, it should remain the battle of minds and hearts not swords and guns.

A study of natural law will see us able to agree on many issues (athiest & believer alike) however, the point where we can agree that our Creator has a single path may not be as important as a single purpose - to save and enable us to share in his/her eternal majesty. Of course, we could all end up like Kerry Packer and find nothing...but for JustDan's sake I look forward to the mother of all Scrabble tournaments.

Philo,

Theology then!
- Jesus divinity and Crucifix are two separate topics. For muslims , Jesus is God’s miracle. “God is one’ is a very clear message in the quoran and Jesus only enforced this message in the bible “follow the commandments”.
- “Mohamed changed the quoran to please jews” does not hold water because:
o Quoran blamed SOME Jews who do not follow the Torah’ teaching but rather toy with words to work on the Sabbath or to charge interest to non-jews, etc.) the Quoran also criticisedSOME Christians for not following Jesus teaching in the bible. The quoran speaks about itself as a ‘ reminder of previous books and messages”
o The Quoran is the only scripture to mention Jesus ‘miracle in talking to the Rabbis and defending Mary when he was a new born and hence why she was not stoned. This was not mentioned in the bible however.
o Muslims belief is Quoran is God’s message to Mohamed; In the Quoran God educated Mohamed when he forgot to smile to a blind man (80:1-6) setting the ultimate example of charity and human love: smiling to someone is a good deed even if he cannot see you.
Now, how can the quoran be so picky on all these details (Major and minor) even picky on the prophet and yet compromises on Jesus Crucifix if it was true?
- The reference to Jesus crucifix ‘God said (to Jesus)”: I am taking you to me until the end of days” . Hence Muslims belief Jesus return will spread peace and he will be the last human soul to die before judgement day.
- This belief is not ‘invented’ by muslims however. The Basilidans in the early days of Christianity held the belief that Simon the Cyrenean was crucified instead of Jesus. Even the Cerinthians before them believed ‘he actually walked away and laughed at is crucifiers”. His ‘very quick death’ was confusing throughout history if he was meant to suffer as crucifix is a horrible and lengthy death