Ash,

the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ is the most fundamental tenant of Christianity. The Koranic version is akin to Barbara Therring's interpretation of the Essene communities (mis)understanding and is a bit like Monty Python's "he turned me into a newt...I got better."

Many Christian Theologians still tread down this path - denying a bodily resurrection and proposing a 'resurrection of belief' (along with a steady discounting of most of the Acts of the Apostles and other early testimonies.)

If Jesus didn't die, didn't ascend into heaven and is due back, where will he come from - a cave near the Dead Sea? Perhaps from Mecca - now that would be ironic - or is he hiding with Osama B-L?

Ash, you claim that you and your co-religionists are awaiting the reappearance of the Prophet Jesus, yet isn't it true that Muhammad is claimed as the "Final" prophet and anyone who follows a subsequent prophet is an apostate? What of the Qadianis? What of their prophet Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad? This group has been declared apostate in Pakistan, in fact they are declared non-Muslim (despite the fact that their holy book is the Quran and they recognise the "Prophethood" of Muhammad) and subject to gaoling for heresy, beatings and murder.

Wouldn't Jesus be subjected to similar treatment (especially if he were to surface in Pakistan)? He wouldn't be too much better off in Saudi Arabia or Egypt or anywhere else in the Islamic world, would he?

Truly, the prophet was cunning when he claimed all previous Jewish and Christian phophets as Islamic, and that he was the "final" one too! Anyone who claims "prophet" status is dead meat, isn't he? (or "God forbid", she!!).

Viking / Reality check,

Don't get carried away guys (gals) , I was responding to Philo 'stereotype' Islamophobes which I have seen over and over again.

Until we all die and meet Jesus, Mohamed, whoever, everyone is free to believe whatever he likes.

All I can say is at least for us muslims, most of us not only would understand the Qu'oran, but would have read the bible and the Torah which is more than I can say about my fellow brothers/ sisters. At least you won't be walking around thinking Jihad is Holy War but hey?

As for Viking, I read an earlier comment from you "not finding any reference in the Koran to forbid alcohol". There are three specific verses (Unless you are reading a sensored version translated by Hunter Valley wineries! :):):). The verses actually link alcohol and gambling..

I always enjoy a logical debate with those who can maintain the same...
ash_koheil@hotmail.com

All the best..Ash

Garra.... back to you for a moment.

you said:

"from the agnostic position ..it's very difficult to ascertain whether fundamentalist Islam is worse than fundamentalist Christianity,"

If by this, you mean the 'Fred Phelps' brand of fundie Christianity and the "bin ladin" version of Islam, The only difference I can see is that Phelps is just gloating over dead homosexuals, rather than planting bombs in the World Trade Centre. Both manifestations are obnoxious to the nth degree.

But you do raise THE important point. 'Fundamental' Christianity must go back to the teaching and life of Jesus and the apostles. That is our measuring stick. Same goes for Islam.

And that, is where the differences lie, and where you, from your position should have the objectivity to actually recognize this.
I pointed out a considerable number of differences, including the father in law of Mohammed (in the other post) Abu Bakar, who ruthlessly supressed with force of arms, those who claimed prophethood after Mohammed died. I contrasted this with the example of 'violence' in the New Testament Peter slicing the ear off a soldier, which was immediately condemned by Jesus.

That is what you should measure all historical examples of so called Christianity against. Don't look at what the Spanish did and say 'Ah, Christianity, so cruel' u can say "Spanish Government.. what cruel and blind people."

Such is not the case when one compares violence done in the name of Islam, because it DOES go right back to the Prophet and his immediate circle of followers. When you see cruel, aggressive behavior by alledged Christians, you should say "Look how FAR they have strayed from Christ" But with Islam, war and invasion are legitimate and you can say "Look, those faithful muslims following the example of the Prophet and his Companions". Are you seeing it yet ?

Ash, I take your points about how Christians and Jews were treated in Egypt, but this must be balanced against the extortion by the more extreme elements who 'Tax' the Christians whenever and for however much they want.

"Grace and Peace" :)

Boaz,

Thank you for your reply.
The origin of taxing the 'people of the book' in Islam comes from 'Gezyah' which in its own semetic language means the 'substitute' or 'replacement'. These rules were only made because Christians at the time could not serve in the army because of its teachings. When Islam came to Egypt, the Byzantine empire were 'physically torturing Christians who do not join the army and most Christians used to escape for weeks and months in the mountain in their own country. Bottomline..the guideline for this tax was basically a defence tax (muslims had military compulsary service) also for funding the church maintenance (they were few hundreds of them built in this era).
This tax always had proper guidelines until started being abused by muslim sultans (996 1056AD)..where economy mishandling lead them to increase taxes among other measures and they started looking at who in the society can afford more tax.

Some great Orthodox Christian Scholar called Dr. Milad Hanna have actually detailed this period but unfortunately I don't think his work is translated to English..I shall find out for you if you are interested.

I was wondering when dhimmitude and "protection money" would be justified.

Any Muslims here care to offer a marriage age for Aisha, since her father Abu Bakr has been mentioned? How about the all-important age of consummation? Something else that is hidden from non-Muslims.

I did a long post about alcohol and Quran, but it was lost in the ether. in essence, I don't read prohibition into most English Quran translations, and one has to understand the concept of abtogation, as well. Later Sura abrogate earlier ones, don't they, and the earlier ones talking of alcohol didn't ban it, did they? Yet idols were banned outright.