Aslan,

DATING

The age of planet can be dated from its physical elements as can the solar system (c. 4.5 billion years). Random gaseous clouds make it hard to use this method to date the Universe. However, background radiation, inflation and red shift can help to determine the age of the latter (c.12.5-13.5 billion years). Relatedly, it is physically not possible for a first generation star to produce heavy elements as these a produced by the break-up of the star and its subsequent nova. Moeover, Science forecast the COBE findings.

In a more terrestrial domain, Science suggested the past existence of creatures now being discovered, having evolved between the dinosaurs and birds. Also, there is DNA imprinting.

When do you think the light left the Andromeda Galaxy? Surely, the light left more than 6,000 years ago?

JESUS

I have long held that it is more likely than not Jesus is an historical person. Only, that I feel his original life goals centred on Jewish theology, which morphed into Jesus sects and, that owing to the political situation in the first century some sect(s) morphed in turn into Christianity. The historian, Edward Gibbon, suggests Jesus’ mission might have been to free the Jews from ritualistic behaviour via his ultimate “human” sacrifice. Such a proposition is feasible, without any resort to the supernatural. Occam's Razor.

Aslan and Pericles,

Guys, I thought I had clarified this matter. Pericles understands what I intended. Aslan, I had in no way planned to develop a syllogistic form of argument. I was merely taking a Popper-like approach in maintaining one should not become affixed, rather assertions should be tentative and testable. Thus, a belief can be a tenet tentatively held now and confirmed or disapproved in the future. Confirmation does not see an end to the matter, the subsequent position is also held tentatively. Otherwise put, don’t rest on your laurels, question.

Words such as never, truth, always and unique are more often used without pedantic intent. Similarly, when many people use the word “decimate”, it is rarely meant to mean the killing of each tenth soldier

Aslan,

" Not sure what you mean by prove the "religiosity" of the Bible... "

Sorry to be unclear. I mean how can we tell or test the Book's assertion, when the Bible makes the claim to outline religious revelation? Herein, please note, I refer to religious not historical content. Would not the Indian Advanta Vendanta make a similar similar claim regarding Scriptures? How do you tell/know a religious book reveals a religion? (No playing with my having a common subject and predicate, please.) Given many religions make the same claim to their religiosity of works, how do we tell the real ones from the grossly mistaken?

Philo,

Do feel it was initially intended by the Jewish apostles that Christianity become a universal religion. Some of our discourse, I suspect, would be familiar to rabbanical doctrine? Relatedly, I wonder if catholicising events were happenstance in first-fourth century history? Say, Zealot recation to Roman occupation and the Roman response might have been an incentive to "jump ship" into the non-Jewish community. From what I understand that at first the Roman's respected the antquity of the Jewish faith but over time this relationship could not stand against religio-social Romans and Paganism.

Oliver,
Quote, "Do feel it was initially intended by the Jewish apostles that Christianity become a universal religion. Some of our discourse, I suspect, would be familiar to rabbanical doctrine? Relatedly, I wonder if catholicising events were happenstance in first-fourth century history? Say, Zealot recation to Roman occupation and the Roman response might have been an incentive to "jump ship" into the non-Jewish community. From what I understand that at first the Roman's respected the antquity of the Jewish faith but over time this relationship could not stand against religio-social Romans and Paganism."

I would like to unpack and clarify what you have actually said here, time restrains me. Generally speaking what you have said has truth. Judaism originally was to be the example to all nations, and help build them. Israel became fixated with nationalism rather than the principle of universal blessing to all men. Abraham was promised, "In you shall all the nations of the Earth be blessed". Blessing refers to a gift given that enhances another and creates goodwill, and prosperity in every sense of this word.

Jesus held some affinity with the Gentile Romans and often berated the Jewish zealots because of their hatred and antagonism toward the occupying forces.

All the examples of great men of faith lived life within the system, Moses rose from imprisonment in an Egyptian prison to leadership of the national food programme. Daniel rose to leadership as an adviser to Babylonian Kings from a war slave. Jesus rose from being a wanted child by Herod while under Roman occupation to leader of a bunch of artisans to be acclaimed as the ultimate revelation from God, upon which Christianity is build. All these men applied their life and skills to the society they found themselves in.

Christianity is about the personal application of our lives for the best outcome of others. Life's too short to be degrading other's, when we can build positive bridges that encourages others to aspire to greater things. Our lives can be a positive outcome that opens doors or a negative barrier that retards growth

Thanks Philo,

I will read your reply with interest.

Pericles,

No - I don't ever give up. Do you?

Fact remains you selected the "wrong" definition to launch your poorly thought out criticism without looking at context in which my syllog was made, and instead of admitting that you made an error and acknowledging we were talking about different things, you insist I am the one who is wrong.

An assertion, argument, proof and a fact are different by definition, not because I assert they are different. Follow Oliver's lead and use a dictionary. Im not persuaded by Oliver's cited source because it gives me no reason to be persuaded - it just tells me that view is true without offering any evidence or reasonable argument.

Oliver,

You said: "The age of planet can be dated from its physical elements as can the solar system".

Only if you assume uniformitarianism, and discount all bad dates that don't fit the predetermined dates for geological column, and discount all the problems in Big-Bang cosmology.

You said: "Moeover, Science forecast the COBE findings."

...And got them wrong!

You said: "Science suggested the past existence of creatures now being discovered, having evolved between the dinosaurs and birds."

Archaeopterix (sp?) is a full fledged bird, and the other two recent discoveries turn out to be frauds. See:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2/4254news3-24-2000.asp
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i2/dino_bird.asp
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v19/i4/flap.asp
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4208news2-3-2000.asp
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4229news3-2-2000.asp

"Also, there is DNA imprinting."

...And?

"When do you think the light left the Andromeda Galaxy?"

According to which clock?

"Surely, the light left more than 6,000 years ago?"

According to a clock on earth, yes around 6,000 years ago. According to a clock on the outer limits of the galaxy, around 12 billion years ago.
See http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i1/starlight.asp

BTW, the light travel time issue is a problem for the big-bang as well:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v25/i4/lighttravel.asp

You said: "Edward Gibbon, suggests Jesus’ mission might have been to free the Jews from ritualistic behaviour via his ultimate “human” sacrifice. Such a proposition is feasible, without any resort to the supernatural. Occam's Razor."

Gibbon "suggests". Doesn't mean he's right... What about all the witnesses to his miracles and the people's desire to make him king? Ockham's Razor.

Aslan,

I will work through your replies with an open mind. However, over the next few days I will be quite busy with my own research. So, I might be a little slow with my reply. But, in closing, if the Earth and the rest of Solar System works according to different clocks, this would mess-up celestial mechanics and 4-D Space-Time Continuum. Moreover, with the Apollo trips to the moon, the astronauts checked out "time". All seemed to be in alignment/misalignment, as know to existing physics.