Silver, your take on the American 'child protection' thing is just capitalism and economic rationalism gone totally mad !

Its where privatization and capitalism lead to if not checked by a higher set of ethics and values.

Boaz, agree with your post.

S/surfer 'you can lead you wife to water but you can't make her think'
Marriage is a partnership, your wife is your equal, you walk together. I think another divorce stat is about to be added.

Daniel, s/surfer is the type who gives marriage and, therefore, fatherhood a bad name.

I was married to a control freak who would also use physical violence to make his point, consequently I am one of the 80% of women who filed for divorce. It has taken me years to learn to trust again and I have found someone who does adore children and is confident in himself that he doesn't need to dominate women and children just to make himself feel 'like a man' (whatever that is).

I think a lot of men (and women) truly lack confidence in themselves - a lot of courage is needed to be a parent. Young men need to be encouraged and supported. There is little acknowledgement of family needs in the workplace and people are expected to place their careers above everything else. Too many mixed messages going on, particularly for men. Keep up the questions Daniel, you are making men think and thats a good start.

Cheers

Ringtail,
Partnership in marriage went out with no-fault divorce and the feminist concept of family, which is the removal of the father after procreation and the requirement that he pays child support to the mother without having any say in how that money is spent.

I agree with Silversurfer in that sons do have to be educated about the thinking processes of the modern woman and about feminism. For every female CEO there are probably 1,000 women who are now welfare dependant. Wherever feminism goes there eventually becomes a shortage of children or not enough money to afford the welfare payments, and that is now happening in our own society.

Daniel best start to look at the real statistics. About 25% of women do not want children or a family. Out of what is left, about 50% of those women will want divorce and the removal of the father. This now leaves about 30% - 40% of women in society who want a proper family with children and a father, and society will be totally dependant on this minority of women.

If society wants the lies, deceit and bias of feminism, then the only real long term option is for society to go to the artificial womb. There are some ethical question concerning the artificial womb http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/genbio/biolink/student/olc2/g-bioe-17.htm ,but the alternatives are a lack of children or a lack of funds to provide for the welfare payments.

Good grief. As if Timkins' silly misogynist crusade isn't enough, we're now joined by Silverfish, who proudly proclaims his literal paternalism. No wonder you guys have trouble relating to women who want to be more than wombs from which your progeny issue.

While I don't necessarily share Daniel's optimism, at least he obviously likes women and operates from a position of partnership with them - which I think is a better premise on which to base a relationship than the thinly disguised paternalism of the likes of Timkins and Silverfish.

In all of Timkins' bleating about the supposed plight of men, I don't think I've read the word "love" once. That might also be a clue as to why he is obviously so unhappy.

Personally, and contra Daniel's article, I don't think young men or women should be encouraged to reproduce until they have some idea of what life is actually about... probably around their early 30s. Having become a father at the age of 20, and subsequently entering into a doomed marriage, I often regret my many failings as a husband and father as far as that broken family is concerned. Although I subsequently remarried and am doing a much better job of fathering my other kids, it will always be a source of sadness to me that I was unable - due mainly to youth and inexperience - to be there for my eldest.

Also, grandfatherhood in one's 40s can be a slightly confronting experience. Just as well I have a grey beard ;)

Garra,

You know very little about me, but it is noticed how you so often use personal inferences and innuendo. The word “love” has rarely been used by feminists in the past, but the word “payment ” certainly has. This is money that has to be paid by the man to the woman.

The ongoing development of the artificial womb is not silly at all. The technology involved is simply an extension of IVF technology, and feminists have been strong advocates of women using IVF. Feminists have had few qualms about single women using IVF to produce children, so feminists should have few qualms about single men using the artificial womb to produce children also.

The artificial womb is being partly used already within IVF and Stem cell research, and the complete artificial womb for humans may be only 10 –20 yrs away. There could be a lot more men willing to become fathers by using the artificial womb, as they can choose when to have children, make a choice of eggs etc. They can’t be accused of rape, abuse, or exploitation of women, and they won’t have to worry about such things as paternity fraud, missing a child support payment, child contact or visitation times etc.

If nothing changes then the artificial womb is likely to become the future world of fatherhood, and in many ways it is an extension of past feminist philosophies.

Next feminists will start saying that they like the male gender.

Timkins, there are a number of reasons why I would like to see an artificial womb developed (a potential alternative to abortion being one).

Replacing real mothers is not one of them. I suspect that there is a lot we still have to learn about the value of fluxuations in hormones, movement, sound etc on the development of the foetus in the womb before it could be used for anything other than emergency life saving.

I still contend that the heart of the issues men face in family law are not with honest feminists but rather those who misuse feminism to persue unfair advantage and to build division. The ones who misuse feminism are hurting the cause of those who want true equality as much or more than they are hurting men. Not all feminists are like that and I think that we are better served by engaging in dialog with the honest feminists than by continual broad scatter attacks on feminism. There were and are area's where women have been treated unfairly. I support the removal of all discrimination based on issues which are not relevant to the item being considered. If a person's gender does not make a substantial difference to their ability to do something then it should not be a factor in decision making etc.