I liked your article, Tony, it explained a little more about how adoption effects the families involved, something I've had no experience with. It does seem that the media was happy to put a tentative foot forward with the 'Abbott and Son' story, serving up a little of the "see, you stay pregnant, have your baby and meet again happily in twenty years time" scenario.
In this situation, with a high profile person, I doubt we would be privy to the rollercoaster emotions of which you write. It's a pity, because in this debate we need to adequately explore the emotional turmoil present in both abortion and adoption.
But, regardless of personal opinion, it must be realised that Government can never 'solve' the problem of unwanted pregnancies. It belongs to the arena of the personal, not the political. It is the large expanse of grey, when people, understandingly enough in many ways, wish for clear-edged black and white.

So the emotional rollercoaster ride of adoption is now derided as something worse than death.

Of course it is preferable to abortion – just ask Tony’s son. It's funny (no, sad), how we have lost all sense of relativity. Some would say, lost our way.

Trying to piece together some figures from this article and others including:-
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,12340287%255E32522,00.html

http://www.womhealth.org.au/studentfactsheets/infertility.htm

There are between 80,000 to 100,000 abortions per year, (or about 20% of pregnancies).

There are now nearly 7,000 children being born through IVF, (or about 2% of children being born).

There are 21,795 children presently living in out-of-home care, (a 50% increase since 1996.)

There were 73 children adopted last year, (as compared to 10,000 in 1971-1972) and another 370 adopted from another country.

These figures do not seem logical somehow.

Look, it's obvious you guys hate the thought of abortion. You'd love to control whether women have it or not. You'd like to control how many children we should have by curtailing contraception. you'd love to give us no choice but to go full-term in every pregnancy that happens in our bodies. You believe women shouldn't have the choice to say, "There is no way I want this baby, I'm not having it."
You throw up adoption as a choice. There's no choice in that...you still have to be pregnant, and give birth and regardless of your level of empathy, no man can be egotistical enough to say he can imagine what that must be like. Because you can't.

Pregnancy is often horrible even when you can't wait to see your child! It has huge effects on a woman emotionally, physically, and mentally. it drains her efficiency in the rest of her life. Fatigue is a very common, little-discussed phenomena that is almost unbearable in a busy life, which most of us have today.

To bear all this (and more) while carrying a child you don't want, wish you didn't have to have, can't believe you are being made to give birth when you don't want to.....THAT is the world you see for me and my daughters?

Deal with it! No man should ever have the right to tell a woman she has to give birth if she doesn't want to.

You're a product of your times, I'm afraid. Bitter, powerless men who feel the need to direct and control the lives of those you blame for the ills of your own, or the erosion of family or religious values, or whatever other bee flies up there in your bonnets.

Abortion will always exist, because women like me will always make sure it exists. And there is not a damn thing you can ever do about it.

Oceangrrl,
I have noticed that you have now made many generalised statements regards men, but not once have you referenced your statements to any known reliable study. In other words:- it is more than likely that you have made it all up, and I have noticed that nearly all other feminists in our society do very similar.

For decades women have been asking for cheap, reliable and safe contraception. Guess what, women now have it.

A woman can now spend 15 mins in a doctors surgery and receive a contraceptive implant that will practically guarantee that she will not become pregnant within the next 5 years, unless that contraceptive implant is somehow forcibly removed. Most of it is subsidised by the taxpayer, so what more can women ask for, and when will they ever stop whinging.

Because you have just made so many unfounded, un-referenced, generalised and maligning remarks about men, I’ll now ask you:-- why such a high rate of abortion (ie nearly 20% of pregnancies) when there is so much contraception available for women (eg http://www.betterhealthchannel.com.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Contraception_choices_explained?open)

And why so much abortion and IVF at the same time, and why so few adoptions when there are so many orphaned children. None of it hardly makes any sense.

And please don’t resort to a common excuse not answer by saying that is none of men’s business, because it definitely is. Or perhaps you are simply Oceangrrl Feminist Male-Hater, who believes that males are sperm-donors and pay-packets only.

Seems abortion is preferable to contraception because it gives a woman a chance to change her mind. Contraception does not do that. Perhaps gender politics requires a certain degree of negotiating power, at every stage of male-female relations.

I for one, am not against abortion. The pro-choice arguments incite me because there is very little choice for men. Men don’t seem to figure in the fertility equation, or the stakeholder/ownership debate. At the same time, we seem to hold men up to their responsibilities more so than women. Why for example, can men not decide to walk away from their responsibility for the child, just as women can, up to late-term pregnancy (even though the baby can already survive outside the womb).

An article in SMH today, explains we really have no idea what the actual abortion rate really is.
http://smh.com.au/text/articles/2005/03/01/1109546871412.html

These statistics should not be hidden or disguised – there is something very conspiratorial and sinister about such women’s business. I think we should all know these figures, and they should be much more precise then they are; fathers should know if they are a biological parent as a matter of procedure. Why should we all not benefit equally from current medical technology, and when is the law going to catch up?

Let women decide by all means – but don’t treat fathers as fools. Please.

Seeker,
Yes, abortion is one of the most commonly carried out surgical procedures in Australia, and one would think it would be highly necessary for health practitioners to be keeping adequate records on abortion, as a part of maintaining public health.

However that doesn’t seem to be the case. Nor can it be determined how much money is actually being spent on abortion, or what is the cost of abortion to the country.

Some research does show that women often grieve for the lost child after an abortion, and the father does too; particularly if he hasn’t been told about it, or if he has had little say in the decision for the abortion to occur. However fathers are not often thought greatly relevant, as can be seen with so many articles in the media, that do not mention fathers when it comes to parenting.

But if the figures on abortion, IVF and adoption are compared over a number of years, then it appears that the rate of abortion has remained static, the rate of IVF has increased (although there is now a shortage of sperm and egg donors), and the rate of adoption has significantly decreased.

Abortion, IVF and contraception are subsidised by the taxpayer, and so would adoption to some extent. But so far as value for money goes, I would think that there should be more money going towards contraception and adoption, and much less money being spent on abortion and IVF.

However I’m only a mere male taxpayer type person so my opinion probably doesn’t count for much, even though I must have paid out a very large amount of tax by now. However it appears that in the minds of some, I would still have to undergo a sex change before I could be considered relevant.

Timkins,
you make me laugh! Walk into a doctors office and in 15 minutes get an implant that leaves you baby free for 5 years? Tried it, have you?
Found that it works? I'm sure you know all about it, or else you can quote me some 'reliable' website that can!

I'm a woman, I have used contraception in the past, otherwise I would have more than the four children I have given birth to.

Depo provera- injection guaranteed to stop pregnancy inmost cases, I think it was 96% effective, similar to condoms, but with the rather annoying side-effect for a great number of women such as myself: constant bleeding for 3 months. Try that for yourself, Timmy, and see how enjoyable that would be. Most men I've known when speaking about the topic of menstruation, sympathise for the 7 days of a usual cycle. Imagine 90! And then it has the effect of sterilising a woman's body, sometimes for life. Plenty of anecdotal evidence, go look it up. And try not to use pharmaceutical=sponsored sites, hey? Or right-wing, fundamental christian organized material, either. Might broaden your horizons.

Mirena: implanted contraception, effects can be no bleeding for months on end (and that's advertised as a good thing) or you may have the usual weight-gain, headaches, nausea or bleeding, again more than usual.

Oral pill: nausea very similar to morning sickness except that it doesn't usually abate. increase in bloating and weight-gain, that cannot be regulated by exercise and very 'unfeminine' by todays standards.

Tired of this yet? It's a little of what women deal with when deciding and experimenting on what works best for them.

You know how men could control contraception? By using your political men's right's groups, and instead of taking it out on individual womenlike myself, lobby and protest for men's oral contraceptives, or men's injections or whatever else it is that is required to stop sperm production.

Thus solving unwanted pregnancies for men, lack of control in deciding whether to have a child or not, and the gross lack of control which you guys suffer.

Oh, when I say 'men' and 'you guys', I am solely referring to men like you, Timkins, Seeker, Boaz, etc. who are now reactionaries in a world more accepting of women's viewpoints than ever.

Not what I call decent men. And I'm sure you don't think I'm a 'decent woman'. (i shudder to think what that would mean to be one!)

Oceangrrl,
If you wish to make comments regards myself then you can be specific. If you want to make generalized comments then don’t bother.

Making highly generalized maligning comments about males is one of the most common characteristics of feminism, and not showing any real ability to solve problems is another (without calling on more government spending leading to a “Dependancy Diva" type syndrome)

Anything I have said of feminists I have provided examples of, and I have often referenced it to many other articles that you can easily find on the web. Most of these other articles are written by well qualified women, who now can see right through the brainwashing feminist propaganda.

Again “Because you have just made so many unfounded, un-referenced, generalised and maligning remarks about men, I’ll now ask you:-- why such a high rate of abortion (ie nearly 20% of pregnancies) when there is so much contraception available for women (eg http://www.betterhealthchannel.com.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Contraception_choices_explained?open) “

I have asked questions of a number of other supporters of feminism on this forum on a number of issues, and to date I have not received one answer. “Nothing” except more generalised maligning remarks about myself and about men. Typical?

Timkins,
I endeavoured to furnish you with an understanding of the complexities of contraception. Every contraceptive for women, other than condoms and that could be argued as being a contraceptive for men, has side-effects. None of them are 100% efficient. Quite a lot are linked with cancer and heart problems and other associated risks.
Please see your doctor and ask her/him for a disclosure statement from within a box of contraceptives, and see for yourself.

And then ask yourself if this would be medication you would enjoy popping for thirty years of your life.

Why don't you answer my suggestion that men agitate for pharmaceutical contraceptives that they can take orally or by injection?

After all, and this is not a generalisation Timkins, but a biological fact that doesn't need verification, men continue to produce viable sperm AND THEREFORE THE MEANS FOR CONCEPTION long after women stop being able to conceive.

Oceangrrl,

“but a biological fact that doesn't need verification, men continue to produce viable sperm AND THEREFORE THE MEANS FOR CONCEPTION long after women stop being able to conceive.”

I get an inkling that you are attempting to “point the finger” at men. But this is just a commonly used feminist technique (No 8) that was mentioned way back at
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=2940#883

“8. Blame males for as many problems as possible, as this transfers responsibility for those problems onto males, and hides the fact that females may be partly or fully responsible for those problems occurring. Transferring responsibility also relieves females from having to find workable solutions to those problems.”

I would have thought that the use of those techniques would be below you, as you seem to be a person who wants to help heal the major divisions that have now developed between the genders.

If there were negative side-affects from female contraception, and if these side affects outweighed the positive side-affects, then this could be brought up during an inquiry into abortion.

But therein is the dilemma. It definitely appears that the pro-choice groups want no inquiry, and no investigation, and no further research into abortion. They definitely appear to want the system to remain exactly as it is "forever". So if there are problems with female contraception, they will remain as they are "forever" also.

So far as male contraception goes, research has been underway for many years, but the results to date are inconclusive as to whether or not hormonal type contraception can ever work to stop sperm production. Maybe an inquiry could help in this area also, but of course we can’t have an inquiry.

Problem that.

I think that Timmy's posts here reveal his very limited intimate knowledge of women. His breathtaking ignorance of the negative aspects of all forms of contraception from the woman's perspective attests to either a lack of sexual experience or indifference to the experience of his partner/s.

As an enthusiastically heterosexual man who's been sexually active for more than three decades, I made it my business very early in the piece to explore the various options available. Fortunately for me I grew up at a time and place where my girlfriends' mothers had them on the Pill from their early teens, and left useful tomes like 'The Joy of Sex' around for us kids to read...

Over the intervening years I've learnt that, while there are indeed many contraceptive options available, none of them are completely satisfactory and nearly all of them place the responsibility for contraception upon the woman, who also bears the side effects.

Women I've made love with over the years have used everything from the Pill, IUDs, diaphragms, depo-provera etc to the ovulation and finger-crossing (i.e. rhythm) methods in order to avoid unwanted pregnancies. I've really only had 2 equivalent options: condoms or a vasectomy, neither of which is without its drawbacks either. Ever wonder why nobody's ever come up with a viable male "Pill"?

Two of those women had abortions of foetuses I'd 'co-produced', while another had experienced the equally traumatic experience of having had to adopt out her daughter from a teenaged relationship. Interestingly, she seems in later life to have suffered more from that experience than did either of my partners who had abortions - although these were quite traumatic events at the time.

More than a couple of those women are what Timmy would call "feminists". Others aren't, but they all suffer from the inadequacy of contraceptive options.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's evident, from the obvious misogyny in Timmy's posts, that they are not based on an intimate knowledge of - and empathy with - women that is derived from equal, mutually respectful relationships with them.

Poor Timmy

Morganzola, (or perhaps you’d like to be thought of as “AMAZING STUD” ).

In the past, you have been asked to prove your generalized accusations regards myself (such as referring to me as “misogynist”, “ignorant” etc), but you haven’t bothered so far. So prove them, or keep your accusations for yourself.

I have noticed in your posts you have rarely referenced or qualified anything (like nearly all feminists and pro-choice people). Perhaps you are too manly for this.

There are problems with all forms of contraception. Have I denied this? Yes or No? (Oh, but I don’t have to answer that says “AMAZING STUD” )

There are highly significant problems with feminist ideology, and I have presented much evidence accordingly (and much of this evidence was written by females). Resorting to feminist problem solving techniques has never solved any problem to my knowledge, and I have read much feminist literature, and also read “The Joy of Sex” many years ago.

But if you have any knowledge as to when feminism has ever solved anything (and not just hidden the problems away, or just stagnated development, or just created a “Dependency Diva” syndrome etc), then please let me know, because in the many years of research I have undertaken, I have not been able to find one single problem ever solved by a feminist.

If any problems are solved, then it is usually done by someone else, and then feminists will normally step in to claim the credit. Prove otherwise, but please reference it so that it will be fully examined (Oh, but I don’t have to do that says “AMAZING STUD” ).

A typical feminist approach to solving the problems of unwanted pregnancy or abortion, is simply to not have an inquiry. But logically, no inquiry will only hide the problems away, and solve “nothing”.

Please prove otherwise (Oh no, says “FEM-BOY”, who has even advertised the fact that that he’s had sex with a known feminist).

I wouldn’t advertise the fact that I’ve had sex with a known feminist. For further education on this, read http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_100/114_dating_advice.html

Timmy... just between you and me... I don't need to provide evidence of your misogyny: you do it yourself nearly every time you post here. You aren't one of those sad blokes who blames his inability to relate to women on naughty evil feminists, are you?

While it doesn't surprise me that you seek advice on 'dating & love', I'd suggest you go elsewhere than the AskMen.com site to which you directed me. For readers who, like me, are unfamiliar with this choice site, here is one of Timmy's sources in action (from the link he provided):

"Every single one of us has made mistakes with women. We've been conned, duped and dazed by physical attraction. We've made fools of ourselves by kissing the feet of females who treated us like dirt. We've wasted countless hours and spent small fortunes chasing after women who lied to us and used us, and turned out to be rotten.
But do we learn from our experiences? No. Every time we think it's going to be different. We think if we just try harder, or do one little thing differently, the result will change.

"Well, it's not going to change. If you keep pursuing the same kind of woman, you'll just get your heart broken over and over again.

"Keep a watchful eye out for the following list of women, and you'll be one step closer to curing yourself of habitual bitch-dating:

"1- Miss Feminist - Bla bla bla."

Other features on the same site include:

"Learn how to control your girl and maintain all the power in your relationship"

"Practical Ways To Control Women"

"Training Your Girlfriend"

Etc etc...

I begin to understand why you don't seem to know much about women...

I don't think you and I need to interact on this topic any more, Timmy. After visiting AskMen.com I've now passed my boredom threshhold.

Morgan

Morganzola, (a stereotyped male who claims 2 abortions and one adoption?)

You actually read all the articles in Askmen.com. Originally I found a link to the article “12 Women to Avoid” from another web-site, and I have read only one other article on the Askmen.com site. That site is very slow with many pop-ups, so for someone as easily bored as yourself, you must have spent considerable time reading the other articles.

However I know of few males who “intentionally” have become involved with a Miss Feminist, or a Miss Take etc, as mentioned in the original article.

It is evident that you are not male “morganzola”. It has been showing for some time now.

You avoid giving out facts and will rarely answer questions, and both are very feminist characteristics.

You brag about your stud-like sexual exploits, but I know of few mature men who do this. (and I have now talked to thousands of men).

You say that you have liked to have sex with feminists, but I have never heard any other male say this.

You have casually mentioned the book “The joy of sex”, but you are the first male I have ever known to do this.

You have never mentioned family or fatherhood, and these are very feminist characteristics.

You seem to accept abortion, but not adoption, and these are very feminist characteristics also.

You claim responsibility for 2 abortions and one adoption, but those statistics seem too unreal to be true, and you are the first male I have ever known to make such claims of unwanted pregnancies.

The list can go on and on, but it is evident that you are pretending to be a stereotypical male, who makes women pregnant so that they have to have abortions..

However your stereotyped characteristics are simply too non-male in reality.

To help redeem your pretence, you can answer this question (hopefully with some references so that it can be checked and verified) :- “How can problems relating to unwanted pregnancy and abortion be solved without an inquiry, or by not carrying out more research”

I can just see it - Morgan and OcanGrrl on a care-free frolic on the beach. Morgan with his strap-on and Oceangrrl with her four children in tow, rebelliously forgetting to take her contraceptives once again …

Timkins, on lifeguard duties … “what’s so hard to understand about doing it between the flags!”

I think Morgan (or Zola) has passed the test at http://spacefem.com/militantfeminist/index.shtml

Or perhaps morgan / zola is a male, but has become a type of victim as referred to in the article at http://us.altnews.com.au/drop/node/view/1272

But if morgan / zola has been responsible for 2 abortions and 1 adoption, then perhaps he / she should stop reading “The Joy Of Sex” for a while, and instead practice saying words such as …..”Children”…. or.…..”Family”…. or …..”Mother”…..or even…..”Father”.

But perhaps there are too many “choices” of words to practice in this list, and it would become all too confusing for him / her.

I wasn't going to respond to Timmy's obsessional psychopathology any more, but I really can't let that last one past...

...so I'm a woman masquerading as a man, am I? Thanks for the compliment, mate - but I can I assure you that I am indeed male. It's a bit sad that you can't conceive of a man who actually likes women, and supports women's rights.

For the record, I have 2 wonderful kids who spend about a third of their time living with me, and a beautiful grandson that my eldest (who would probably consider herself as something of a feminist) gave birth to last year. Here's another fact that you probably won't believe: I happily pay child support to the mother of my 2 youngest, who remains one of my closest friends (yes, she's a bit of a feminist too...). My partner is a beautiful woman who would probably regard herself as a feminist of sorts...

I don't think I'm anything of a "stud" - rather, I was providing you with a frank account of the results of three decades of pretty normal (at least among my peers) relationships with women, as they relate to the article under discussion. Unwanted pregnancies happen, even within stable relationships and when contraception is used. I had nothing to do with the adoption - rather, my ex-wife grew up in a strongly Catholic family and of course didn't have a clue about contraception... and as I said, she seems to carry more guilt from that experience than did the women I know who've had abortions.

It's evident from your posts in these forums that you have major problems with women and sex, and for that I truly feel sorry for you - you literally don't know what you're missing out on!

In the short time I've interacted with some of your fellow homophobes and misogynists in these forums, I've been accused of being a gay man and a woman. Next I suppose I'll be an Aboriginal Muslim!

Morgan

Morganzola,

For some history on your feminism and abortion, read “Feminism and the Family” by Janice Shaw Crouse (ie. a woman) at http://www.beverlylahayeinstitute.org/articledisplay.asp?id=5435&department=BLI&categoryid=commentary

If you do read this article, will you automatically label the female author as being misogynist, homophobic, ignorant etc, as you seem very fond of throwing those words at other people?

However you don’t seem to like it if your name-calling and generalised accusations are turned back towards you. How sad.

YOU HAVE YET to answer the original question that was asked of you, “How can problems relating to unwanted pregnancy and abortion be solved without an inquiry, or by not carrying out more research”?

Your name-calling has continued, but no answers to questions so far. This only confirms that you rely on name calling, so as to avoid answering questions.

If you want to continue your name calling regards myself, I will just have to refer to you as “someone who avoids answering questions, likes name calling and making generalised accusations about other people without supplying any supporting evidence, objects if the same is returned, regards it as being “pretty normal” to get women unintentionally pregnant so that they have to have abortions or adopt out the children, and then likes to have sex with feminists” .

And in this case, you have provided all the evidence yourself. It is all true and much more, and I would not have to make generalised, unsubstantiated, non-specific accusations like you, and so many feminists have done in the past.

Will “morgonzolla” ever answer the original question, or just avoid it, and carry on with name-calling? It can be easily returned.

To ask a strangers permission?
It's ridiculous how this laws in this country work.
I got together with my wife in 1997 and she had a son from previous relationship, he was 18 month old, know is almost 11 yars old and he loves me to bits and i love him more. we are planing to go overseas for a some time, and we need to ask his biological father's permission. this is ridiculous
the guy had nothing to do with him, he never had. His got his own kids and stuff. i spoke with me wife about me trying to adopt him, but she sad that the biological father will never sign his right away, he will never do that, not cos he love him and stuff, it's just that he has an eager, he wont do it just to be nasty.
This is truly ridiculous. THE LAW SHOULD BE SOMTHING LIKE THIS. ANY PARENT THAT HASEN'T GOT ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAY KIDS FOR UP TO 2 YEARS SHOULD AUTOMATICLY LOOSE THEY RIGHTS. EXCLUDING SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANTS, LIKE THE PARENT IS IN PRISON OR OVERSISE FOR WORK....etc
But i don't see this happening cos this monkeys in the Parliament have to many books in they head and not enough brains(logic).
LOGIC IS THE POWER AND knowledge IS JUST USEFULL.
SO WHAT CAN I DO? COS I HAVE NO CLUE.YEAH if i had lots of money, i would fight it in the court, but i haven't. live is a bitch and than you have one in the parliament.