Aslan,

Despite our disagreement over the validity of Cameron's research (a subject I will return to), I don't have any doubt at all that the incidence of drug abuse, suicide and domestic violence is high amongst gays and lesbians.

Where I differ from you and Cameron and the rest of the religious right is that I understand these problems are primarily the result of homophobia, not of some monolithic 'homosexual lifestyle'.

The religious right has opposed every step towards equal rights that gay people have achieved since the 60s. Many of you would prefer it if we were still 'illegal'. Yet you seem to refuse to even imagine that it is just this kind of persecution that creates the very social ills that you decry.

Indulge me. Imagine growing up straight in a world in which you find straight folk are a small and still largely despised minority. Your parents, who’ve never actually met an openly straight person, make it clear from the start they don’t like ‘breeders’. Consequently, you have to hide an essential part of yourself to your family to avoid being thrown out of home and disowned. You spend the best of your formative years in schools in which your peers reserve the nastiest terms of abuse for the likes of you. Consequently, you have to pretend to be gay to avoid being ostracised, bullied or straight-bashed. Your teachers know it’s taboo to even talk about your kind in class except when teaching that the unerring Word of God says it’s not really murder to kill you.

Imagine that you manage to make it to adulthood without throwing yourself off a cliff. You might even be lucky enough to find love. However, street violence against straights is so high you only ever feel brave enough to hold your partner’s hand in public at a straight pride march. Your government denies your relationship equal legal rights on the specious grounds that heterosexuality is a bad choice and must be suppressed. And some of those MPs are still a-hankerin’ fer the not-too-distant days in which hets were thrown in prison simply for being straight.

No Aslan, this horror story isn’t the ‘gay agenda’. It’s not ‘Gay HQ’s’ secret plan for world domination. It’s not some sick revenge fantasy. It’s exactly how your beloved religious right ensures gays grow up right here and right now. Of course, some of us have it a bit better; some much worse, but the basic story remains the same.

Surely no-one could be surprised that many people treated like this are likely to suffer from maladies such as clinical depression, suicide, alcoholism, workaholism and drug or sex addiction.

Of course, none of this is an excuse for gays to wallow in victimhood. For most gays and lesbians, coming to terms with the validity of their sexuality and 'coming out' is a profoundly liberating experience. A debilitating burden is lifted.

The coming out experience also opens up myriad possible pathways. Not all of these are healthy, and some people will choose more dangerous, er, routes. Some will remain stuck in redundant patterns of behaviour they developed in order to cope with life in the closet. Others will go on to forge boringly ‘normal’ and productive lives.

I believe that some parts of 'gay culture' as it currently exists can make these maladies worse, but I also know from personal experience and the testimonies of countless others that the religious right's old time elixir (active ingredient: persecution) is really the primary cause of the problem.

I believe full equal rights under the law (including marriage) will make it easier for more and more gay people (which history shows to be a constant minority in all populations regardless of public policy) to live happier, healthier lives and thereby cause far fewer problems for the larger society.

For conservatives, the goal of greater social stability would be best achieved by making more conservative life choices (such as same-sex marriage) available to, and increasingly acceptable amongst, gays and lesbians.

With less persecution there will also be less counter-provocation. There will be less fuel to feed radical critiques of marriage and even monogamy. There will still be many gays who choose to reject these things, but an increasingly articulate and conservative section of the gay population will emerge to balance the liberal and radical left voices which currently dominate gay community debates.

Though I am myself of the liberal left, I would welcome such a development. You see, I really do believe it tales all kinds to make a world.
______

While we’re at it …

Aslan says: “the APA is no longer a professional scientific origanisation [sic]- they are now political and social policy advocates for gay the rights movement”.

Q: Why would the APA, the peak body representing the vast majority of American psychologists, allow a ‘small group of militant homosexual agitators’ to force it to turn its back on the billions of dollars its members could make ‘treating’ homosexuals by attempting to ‘turn them straight’? Why would it give up such a goldmine so easily?

A: Because they’ve come to know ‘reparative therapy’ is a crock. Today, the vast majority of psychologists agree that attempts to re-orient a person’s sexuality are both futile and potentially very damaging. Only a tiny part of the psychological & psychiatric profession -- mostly religious fundamentalists -- still pursues such ‘therapies’. These practitioners themselves dare claim only a tiny and temporary ‘success’ rate.

Aslan again: “Actually, there is quite a lot of similarity between the gay activists' methods and those employed by the NAZIS. Both told bare faced lies with no substantiation and both silenced anyone who opposed them. Note that I am NOT saying that Homosexuals are all NAZIS - just that they have employed the same propaganda tactics in order to achieve their agenda.”

This is rich coming from the religious right, which enjoys long, ugly and ongoing history of persecuting and silencing ‘heretics’ of all kinds (e.g. the crusades, witch hunts, blasphemy laws, sodomy laws, censorship and ‘classification’ laws. Did someone mention the Spanish Inquisition?)

Homo
Welcome to the world of the 'Christian minority'.
When it comes to 'despised people' its not easy to find 'more despised' people than evangelical Christians. 'us'. Every hollywood producer seems to take vindictive delight in portraying us as 'loonies' who have a few screws loose.
The RACIAL AND RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE ACT 2001 has been used only against CHRISTIANS.
The popular image of 'us' is that of holywood. I constantly get 'anti Christian' slurs, and am sometimes writing emails to those who think we advocate SLAVERY etc.
But we dont resort to drugs or other 'comforts'. We look to the Lord for our strength. He is the reality who can be relied on.

Hi David,

> When it comes to 'despised people' its not easy to find 'more despised' people than evangelical Christians.

Only when they knock on your door and try to sell you The Watchtower before turning tail and screaming “you’re gonna burn in Hell!” once they notice the Tom of Finland print in the hallway.

I try hard not to despise evangelical Christians. And I’m willing to try loving them in the spiritual sense, but the closest I’ve come was when a Christian missionary insisted on becoming my f*ck buddy.

As a teenager I was involved in the Assemblies of God for a while, so I know why otherwise good people get caught up in fundamentalism. I also believe I understand the forces at work that make it a threat to free thought and free societies.

>Every hollywood producer seems to take vindictive delight in portraying us as 'loonies' who have a few screws loose.

I suggest the likes of Pat ‘New World Order’ Robertson and Jerry ‘Tinky Winky’ Falwell do a good enough job of that without the help of Hollywood. However, I agree evangelicals don’t inspire the glowing celluloid tributes they once did. At least the censors have never banned the very mention of evangelicals in Hollywood films. From about 1930 until the mid 1960s, the religiously-inspired Hayes Code banned even the suggestion of homosexuality in Hollywood films, though some clever directors used subtlety to buck the system a little. I recommend the documentary film The Celluloid Closet, an entertaining and informative look at Hollywood’s depiction of gays and lesbians in the 20th century (out now on DVD).

>The RACIAL AND RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE ACT 2001 has been used only against CHRISTIANS.

So far, that may be the case, but such anti-vilification laws also prevent extremist queer pagans claiming evangelical Christians are possessed by demons from Hades and should consequently be summarily executed by squadrons of vigilantes. Although I have reservations about anti-vilification laws (they can make free speech ‘heroes’ out of mere bigots), defaming an entire class of people and encouraging hatred and violence towards them rightly tests the limits of free speech.

>I constantly get 'anti Christian' slurs, and am sometimes writing emails to those who think we advocate SLAVERY etc.

That’s a shame. Take some comfort from the fact that at least ‘Christian’ isn’t the universal schoolyard euphemism for ‘pathetic’; and ‘God-botherer’ is nowhere near as popular a term of abuse (or express the same venom) as ’faggot’, ‘cocksucker’ or ‘arse-bandit’.

But yes, I know from recent personal experience that telling some people you believe in Jesus generates an even more hostile response than if you told them you believe in alien anal probes.

Historically, it’s only 140 years ago that The Bible was routinely used to defend slavery, but the churches have come a long way on the issue since the 1860s. Of course, more liberal church-folk played key roles in the fight against slavery and the subsequent civil rights movement. For this, such people are worthy heroes, along with the likes of Abe Lincoln (who may or may not have been gay) and Barnard Rustin (who most certainly was).

>But we dont resort to drugs or other 'comforts'. We look to the Lord for our strength. He is the reality who can be relied on.

Well, you’re not *supposed* to look to drugs and other comforts, but real life tells a different story. It’s not uncommon for even the most pious of churchmen to be enslaved by the bottle or caught seeking ‘other comforts’ – often from members of their own flock. Witness the admissions of adultery from the likes of Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts, Jerry Falwell and many others. Even one of my greatest heroes, Dr Martin Luther King Jr, was also a serial adulterer.

Not one of us is perfect. We are all ‘sinners’. The best we can do is to do our best in good conscience. We could do worse than follow the words of Jesus as claimed by Mark:

“[Jesus said:] ’You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbour as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.

Homo,

I was waiting for this. It is a standard response: "Yes, the homosexual community has lots of problems - but it's all YOUR fault!"

As I noted earlier, most homosexual's problems are nothing at all to do with "homophobia" but with homosexuals' own inner conflicts. In 1977 (4 years AFTER the APA declared homosexuality was not an illness) ten thousand members of the APA were polled at random, asking them their opinion on the 1973 decision, and in an article entitled “Sick Again?” Time magazine summarized the results of the poll: “Of those answering, 69% said they believed ‘homosexuality is usually a pathological adaptation, as opposed to a normal variation,’ 18% disagreed and 13% were uncertain. Similarly, sizable majorities said that homosexuals are generally less happy than heterosexuals (73%) and less capable of mature, loving relationships (60%). A total of 70% said that homosexuals’ problems have more to do with their own inner conflicts than with stigmatization by society at large.” Note that this was in 1977 when the level of homosexual acceptance was still much much less than it is today!

Moreover, Susan Holt, coordinator of the domestic violence unit of the Los Angeles Gay Lesbian Center, said that “domestic violence is the third largest health problem facing the gay and lesbian community today and trails only behind AIDS and substance abuse…in terms of sheer numbers and lethality.” See Susan Holt, "Ending the cycle of domestic violence" Gay Lesbian Times, 9126196, 39.

And I suppose the fact that 85% of all HIV/AIDS sufferers in Australia is the fault of intolerant heterosexuals as well?

Homo asks: "Why would the APA, the peak body representing the vast majority of American psychologists, allow a ‘small group of militant homosexual agitators’ to force it to turn its back on the billions of dollars its members could make ‘treating’ homosexuals by attempting to ‘turn them straight’? Why would it give up such a goldmine so easily?"

Answer: Because homoexuals make up less than 3% of the population and only a fraction of those seek professional help. ie. there is no real "gold mine" of treatment revenue here.

RE RELIGIOUS RIGHT'S PERSECUTORY ACTIVITIES:
Homo asks, "[What about] the crusades, witch hunts, blasphemy laws, sodomy laws, censorship and ‘classification’ laws. Did someone mention the Spanish Inquisition?"

What about the Crusades, Homo? Which Crusade in particular? One of the worst had nothing at all to do with Christianity but was the State's (England and France) way of getting rid of all the sons of nobleman who had no inheritance (ie. a nobleman's 2nd and 3rd son) and were going around causing political trouble. Other crusades were in direct response to the Muslim sacking and occupation of Jerusalem after they had slaughtered all the Jewish inhabitants.

The actual events of the witch hunts and Spanish inquisition were nothing at all like the popular media portrayal of them. While witch hunts are the one blight on the history of the church, the extent and severity of those practices and atrocities have been recent book "For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery" In it he provides detailed documentation and historical anaylsis of what really happened.

AK

Oops! My last sentence somehow got a bit muddled up.
It should have said:

"While witch hunts are the one blight on the history of the church, the extent and severity of those practices and atrocities have been greatly exaggerated. Scoiologist, Rodney Stark's recent book "For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery", provides detailed documentation and historical anaylsis of what really happened.

And BTW, Homo, it was EVANGELICAL Christians who ended slavery not liberal ones (they supported it for the most part). eg. Samuel Wilberforce, John Newton and Granville Sharpe. Sharpe's contributions are inscribed in English Law.

AK

Evangelical Christianity.. what a scourge eh :)
In the USA, staff at the Integrity bank begin the day with prayer..
hand in hand.
At the end of the day.. a teller may sing "Amazing Grace".. .my goodness..
I truly think we are beginning to see signs of true revival......
"nothing can stop us now" :)) as the song goes.. but hey.. I'm not so stupid to make a cheap socio political shot about that.. Nothing worthwhile happens unless God is in it.. all for HIM :)