Newsroo,

You don't have to have children to decide how you feel about parenting; but you can't comment on what parenting actually feels like unless you have had children, ie. your comments that it's a generally mind-numbing, miserable experience. Likewise, you're not necessarily going to understand parents' comments about parenting if you're not a parent. It's one of those things, like labour and childbirth, that is impossible to fully comprehend until you've actually been there.

By the way, on your experience of your doctor and his/her comments on tubal ligation: I found that among the Western medical professionals I have encountered, their attitude was that women really don't know their bodies as well as the medical profession do. So it appears to be on both sides of the baby fence.

And just as much as you say people almost can't be honest about how they feel about having had children, I guess the same could be said about women who haven't had children, and are unlikely to: you're very unlikely to hear many childless women who are past their reproductive period say they really wished they had had children. That's almost a taboo, too. But that's not to say there aren't many intelligent, childless women who are completely fulfilled - I'm know there are. Having children is certainly not the only way to find fulfilment as a human being.

My objection to the groundswell against having children (and I really feel it is a groundswell) is that consumerism is touted as the mainstream alternative. That if we only just consume to construct our chosen identity, we will find fulfilment; that there's no need to engage with other human beings on a deeper level. And for many people, it is definitely not the fulfilment that having children may be. I feel that attitude is offensive to human beings as social and spiritual beings.

Discouraging people from having children by inferring it is an 'unsatisfactory life choice' is as irresponsible as pushing people to reproduce. There are as many miserable people with children as there are people without: my thesis is that something deeper than the 'child factor' is responsible. So what's really going on here?

For as much as there is social pressure TO have children, there is a very strong social pressure to NOT have children. When I found myself pregnant, unexpectedly, and decided to keep my baby, not one of my friends supported me in my decision. As a result, I have not one friend left from the period of my life around my late teens to late twenties. Actually, that 'life change' has been a harder one to swallow than the transition to parenthood. I know that had I chosen a termination, things would have been very different. In some social circles, people are more willing to commit to supporting termination than having a baby. To commit to someone, as a friend, who is having a baby, requires a change in mindset, priorities and timeframe. A woman who has a baby is generally not back drinking at the pub with her mates within six weeks. Strong social pressure not to have children? I think so.

Perhaps we need to shift our focus from 'children or no children' to 'what do I have to offer my community and my world' and make life decisions from there. In the final analysis, isn't that what it's really about?

Loc

Dear Loc,

It's so easy to get hot under the collar with this issue - I think you and I have done well to keep it 'light'!

"You don't have to have children to decide how you feel about parenting; but you can't comment on what parenting actually feels like unless you have had children"
Fair Cop in a way - I certainly can never know what it is like for someone who wants kids!! Just for the record though - before I finally convinced that guardian angel of a Dr that a tubal really was what I wanted, I was extremely messed up by an unexpected pg which I discovered in it's 5th month...too late she cried!
And so I *do* have half the requirement. I found I have never felt less like a human and more like a faceless incubator than at that time. Of course I can't talk from experience of actually raising the child as it was adopted out immediately, but I feel it's fair to form an opinion from observations.
My first and most influential one was my own family - a father who made no secret of his constant affairs and a strong mother who made a strong choice - her happiness or ours. Of course it was our happiness over hers, that is what motherhood means, that's why it appears 'miserable' to me.

"By the way, on your experience of your doctor and his/her comments on tubal ligation: I found that among the Western medical professionals I have encountered, their attitude was that women really don't know their bodies as well as the medical profession do. So it appears to be on both sides of the baby fence."

I'm not denying that most western doctors think they are gods who know everything - but think of it this way - if I wanted a baby at 16 there's not a Dr who would councel for RU48. I might cop some societal pressure but no-one would deny that I knew my self well enough to decide for myself ...I was 23 when I first enquired about sterilisation and after a years waiting period and an interview with my MOTHER he finally agreed to do it. And I'm one of the lucky few who have managed to get this procedure done without any children at home. Another example of this crazyness is that a male asking for permanent sterilisation will be granted it almost immediately with a minimum of insults about knowing what he wants out of his life. Why? Because they are assuming that ALL women want children and will have them one day.

"And just as much as you say people almost can't be honest about how they feel about having had children, I guess the same could be said about women who haven't had children, and are unlikely to: you're very unlikely to hear many childless women who are past their reproductive period say they really wished they had had children."
You're right again... I actually lament this fact as well - I have found it needs to be the right crowd to be honest... because many of the childed are so damn sure I'll change my mind, I don't have the luxury of showing any cracks in my facade. Touche!

"My objection to the groundswell against having children (and I really feel it is a groundswell) is that consumerism is touted as the mainstream alternative. That if we only just consume to construct our chosen identity, we will find fulfilment; that there's no need to engage with other human beings on a deeper level. And for many people, it is definitely not the fulfilment that having children may be. I feel that attitude is offensive to human beings as social and spiritual beings."

This is where we disagree....consumerism among the childfree IS promoted by the mainstream media but it is a myth. Families are actually MUCH bigger consumers than individuals.... but it's safer to think that people who don't want children are selfish, doesn't challenge the dominant ideology.

Discouraging people from having children by inferring it is an 'unsatisfactory life choice' is as irresponsible as pushing people to reproduce.

Ah but is it...? Surely the default being NOT screwing up another life, NOT burdening the planet further etc has got to be more responsible. I don't really believe in reactionary politics but with the Government seeing fit to use $3000 (soon to increase) per child NOT MEANS TESTED of my money (taxes) to support other people's life choices, well.... I just think it's better to be really SURE you want kids before you have them - wouldn't the world be a better place if every child was wanted...?

"When I found myself pregnant, unexpectedly, and decided to keep my baby, not one of my friends supported me in my decision. As a result, I have not one friend left from the period of my life around my late teens to late twenties. Actually, that 'life change' has been a harder one to swallow than the transition to parenthood. I know that had I chosen a termination, things would have been very different. In some social circles, people are more willing to commit to supporting termination than having a baby. To commit to someone, as a friend, who is having a baby, requires a change in mindset, priorities and timeframe. A woman who has a baby is generally not back drinking at the pub with her mates within six weeks. Strong social pressure not to have children? I think so."
I feel very bad that you're friends did that - but consider, were they really friends? Even me - with my rabid childfree-ism - have and will support friends through a pregnancy. Once the decision has been made, turning away from someone because they didn't take your advice is crap.
The only other thing I could say is that sometimes when someone is being more supportive of abortion than keeping the baby is that there's a tendency of women to say "I'm having this baby - no matter what!" ...even if the 'what' in question turns out to be someone else supports the baby, another person (usually grandma) looks after the baby ...do you see what I mean? It's not really one persons decision when they expect the rest of the world to care for it. Of course not saying this is your case, just that I do think people have a right to hold an opinion about someone elses decision, particularly when it directly effect them.

"Perhaps we need to shift our focus from 'children or no children' to 'what do I have to offer my community and my world' and make life decisions from there. In the final analysis, isn't that what it's really about?"

...You really hit the nail on the head there! I would just like to see some study done into why it is people (especially it seems - men) seem to think that women all want to be mothers. You'll say "of course they don't - no-ones saying they do!" ....but it is said every day, in a million different ways.

Dear Newsroo,

What a crap fertility experience! I am so lucky to have never gone through something like that. But, just for the record, whether you are happy about a pregnancy or not, it appears that feeling like a 'faceless incubator' is the order of the day when you enter ... "the medical model". I had an obstetrician who told me that even though I had the date of conception of my second child completely certain, that I must not be remembering correctly because his ultrasound disagreed with me. (Turned out *my* dates were right... ha!) Anyhow, that your mother had to be interviewed to qualify you for your tubal at your age 24 is particularly screwed. Really, it seems like a liability issue. No-one wants to be sued for that sort of thing.

The attitude that all women want children is just wrong, and to not treat choosing to be childfree as a valid option for any women just so obviously needs to change. But it's also very wrong for young women to be told brainwashed into thinking that having children is just a waste of a good life.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the 'do families or singles consume more' issue. It depends on the life cycle stage of the individual or the family, and what you define as a consumer durable. Though I do agree that society does view people who don't want children as selfish, which seems stupid, because there are just as many selfish people with children.

And if we use the default global position for someone not having children, you're right, then, that it isn't as irresponsible to discourage people from having children as is it is to push people to reproduce. But on a personal level, both actions can completely devastate a woman if she were to be coerced into making that decision.

Don't feel bad that my friends left me in the lurch. I feel they were really friends for that time of my life, but just very selfish people, and not the kind of friends I thought they were. Perhaps I was a very selfish person too. That'll learn me for hanging out in the world of advertising... I don't think they did it because I didn't take their advice - more that I was no use to them any more. It was all part of the journey, turns out.

"..just that I do think people have a right to hold an opinion about someone elses decision, particularly when it directly effect them." Yes. Absolutely. The Baby Bonus is crap. Foisting your offspring onto others and not taking personal responsibility for your actions (and your children) is crap. As is being a crap parent and not seeking help for your parenting skills.

But I'd have to say, Newsroo, that if you asked your mother whether it was a miserable experience to watch you grow up, I can't believe she'd answer yes to that - and not just because it's taboo.

Cheers,
Loc

Dear Loc,

Of course - when Mum says that if she had her time again she wouldn't have married and had kids, it's from a strong understanding that she loves us very much and is glad we're here.

I do understand the litigation thing - and that I am lucky to have got it done at all and I am thankful. But that's just exactly the point - if they didn't assume that every woman wants to or will have a child, there wouldn't be such a fear of litigation. BTW - I told him at the first interview that I was happy to get a solicitor and sign what ever I had to to say that in the event I changed my mind, he wasn't at fault...

It's a long legacy of Medical Science (which has been far from scientific for most of its' history!). They only discovered in the 1900's that it was best to wash your hands between patients, something midwives have always done! ...but you can't tell men anything can you?.... (tongue in cheek...)

I really think this is just a bump in the road... when you think about the massive changes we've seen in our lifetimes (I'm turning 30 this year) not only in technology (microwaves, mobile phones, DVD's, CD's - these things did not exist when i was growing up) but the social changes (increased equality between the sexes, changes to labour laws accross the board not to mention demographic changes) it's little wonder there's going to be a bit of a lag in attitudes.

The one thing I wonder is - is this 'fertility strike' reaction based or is it actually a natural state which only now has been allowed to show itself because of social conditions.
In other words, are women having less/no children because they have been influenced against it or simply because now more than ever before they have other options...?
So, if women were financially independant, equally regarded in the workplace and in charge of their contraception like they are now back in the 50's, would we see the same result? Would we see up to 30% of women choosing not to have kids?

It would be really hard to tell, eh? But to me - this is the question. It's no use making social policy to address what's preventing women having children when the thing preventing it is their own choice.

The hardest part about it is, when there's a general assumption that ALL women want to have kids they won't even ask the question.

Dear Newsroo,

It's hard to say what the decrease in fertility rate in our society is based on. Probably a combination of the factors you mentioned.

Also, for my part, I feel it also must be mentioned that consumerism has created 'identities' as alternatives to the wife/mother identity which has dominated womens' choices for so long. So it's no longer necessary for women to be confined to the roles of wife, mother or spinster - or men to be confined to father/non-father.

Also, consumerism tends to be very big on 'freedom'; not liberty, but this amorphous concept whereby an absence of commitment = freedom. However, our emotional wellbeing actually requires some form of commitment for spiritual and cultural capital. So many men and women choose not to have children because it entails "un-freedom" and it doesn't fit their fixed consumer 'image' or 'identity' - which is a pretty hollow method for making major life decisions, and one which has the potential for major repercussions down the line.

Still, I feel it's important to say again that it's not totally implausible to suggest that many women still have children because they actually *want* to - and that even given the choices of an expansive career, some variable consumer identity package, or any other option, nurturing a growing life and devoting your waking (and sleeping) hours to another person's welfare can be a very fulfilling pursuit, and definitely not the worst thing that could happen to your life.

Possibly if conditions were different in the 50s we may see many women choosing not to have children - but is that because it is 'right', or because we are progressively being socially conditioned to believe that devoting life to children is 'a waste'? Remember it is only a recent phenomenon that children have become an economic 'burden' rather than an economic 'asset'. And when our society is structured around the importance of the almighty dollar, you can see where another deterrent for having children comes from. Another reason Howard's ('I'll pay you for your bubba according to what the mama is worth') $3000 fertility promise was so well received (in some quarters). Suffice it to say, it's a far from simple argument.

For me the issue is not so much whether women are having children or not, it is whether we are able to sustain other social and familial relationships to maintain our community's emotional health. I don't give a crap whether women choose to have kids or not, that's a personal decision. I just hope that people to make these decisions fully informed, not on the basis of another's ego or current trends (because trends change). I also hope that our society can maintain the importance of human relationships - kids or no kids. And let's treat each other's personal life decisions with a bit of respect.

So, thankyou for sharing your story with me.

Loc