Well said.

I am not upset about people making informed chices. But, I will continue to bat for parenting because I enjoy it, because I belive it is worthwhile.

I agree many parents may find parenting a chore, none of us really can understand what it does top your life until you are there. Some, like yourself, probably put in a bit more thought than others.

I don't shy away from my SMH article. You only get so many words, so sometimes you can not flesh out the issue and must get straight to the point...and those points tend to be pointy. There are also a growing number of women who are getting to their late 30s and realising that they may have wanted children (read anything by Leslie Cannold - she is on this site)I wrote the article to present a view that young man have more options than they generally consider.

To throw the blame for fertility at the feet of women is letting men of the hook.

I am all for better parents and enjoyable parenting. I have managed to do it, and others can. It means letting go of things and changing our perspectives of work and identity.

And, there lies the problem. People are not making informed choices.

You know - it's great to see that two people on the opposite side of what seems such a 'black and white' issue can have an intelligent debate with minimum personal attacks (all my fault - sorry again!).

Keep doing what you're doing, you're doing a great job!
...maybe you could write a book suggesting how others can avoid the pitfalls of materialistic, patriarchal parenting?...

Good luck!

Judith,

"Family life has been portrayed as conservative, patriarchal and depressing because for the bulk of people doing it - it is."

I'm amazed you have such well-formed views on the experience of parenting... especially for a woman who is not a parent. I think you might possibly find that while parents do work particularly hard at raising their children, the journey is rich and rewarding, and the general consensus across a very broad range of parents I know is that we're not all miserable creatures lamenting the choices we've made.

In fact, I believe that having had the experience of being single and childless and happily pusuing a responsibility-free consumerist lifestyle, and then a parent, I am probably better qualified at assessing the differences between the two 'lifestyle choices' than you are. The truth be known, my experience of the former was fun, but for the most part, a hollow, spiritless way to live, and the latter has given me more truth, love, fun and understanding than I ever believed possible.

In this forum, I find your comments quite bitchy and aggressive, and I'm disappointed that you resort to such personal attacks and gross generalisations on something of which you have very little experience.

Parenting *is* hard. Having kids is not for everyone. In fact, if you dislike the idea of parenthood that much, the most responsible decision you could make is to remain childless. And on that point, we agree. But don't bag parents you don't know, with lives you know little-to-nothing about, to promote a lifestyle in which your decision-making skills appear yet to be seriously tested.

Loc

Please note, the above comment should have been addressed to Newsroo, not Judith.

Newsroo, just a few comments regards some issues.

“most parents are disinterested at best (particularly fathers).” –no reliable study has every found that most fathers are disinterested.

“Family life has been portrayed as conservative, patriarchal and depressing because for the bulk of people doing it - it is.” - work in Australia by Dr Sotirios Sarantakos basically showed that about 25% of families were patriachial, 25% were matriachial, and 50% were democratic, which means that about 75% of families were either controlled by the mother or the mother had equal say. Also the lowest rates of depression or mental ill-health occur in traditional 2 parent families.

“a hell of a lot of fathers who couldn't tell you their childrens middle names.” - no reliable study has ever found this to be true. It is a myth that was first perpetrated by the current Sex Discrimination Commissioner.

Interesting Tim...I actually thought I made that one up (the middle names thing) but interesting that it was already in common useage!

I don't think it's fair to say that you need to experience parenting to decide how you feel about it - after all that would mean a hell of a high rate of infanticide as we saw in Romania under Ceaucescu. Surprisingly though, it is a common attitude that when deciding whether to have kids, "why don't you have one and see?". DOCTORS have said this (when I fought for and sucessfully got a tubal ligation to ensure I won't have any nasty surprises)...the stupidity of this statement just astounds me...I was speechless, like... "Pfffftttt!!! What??" ...I don't need to be a heroin addict to know it's not the life for me...and it's easier to get off heroin than get rid of your kids!

I'm not denying it is the life for some people - and I don't deny that for some people, it is life enriching - but i don't think it's nearly as many as you think. People almost *can't* be honest about that stuff - it's generally not well received when you say you regret your offspring...

My point is - it's not the ONLY way to be fulfilled as a human being as it is so often portrayed